Become a Patron!

Are clones bad?

Gregjl

Bronze Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Clones are exactly what I thought they were, knock offs. And everyone seems to guarantee their mods are not clones but aren't they all subject to the same standards? The CE and the UL and all that. And for mechanicals the selling point is simplicity (there's not a lot going on there) and I'm not calling out anyone in particular but if it's just a box and a button why would I want genuine? I'm not a label whore with anything else. I wish they would go ahead and say why when they advertise. Is it a safety matter?

Thanks
 

Lefty

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Try google, there's enough stuff out there on the clone debate to make you sick of it before you cover it all.
 

f1r3b1rd

https://cookingwithlegs.com/
Staff member
Senior Moderator
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
VU Challenge Team
Member For 5 Years
VU Patreon
:wait::poop:
It's been a debate that's as old as vaping. Short answer -no
 

fq06

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
It used to be a drastic difference in materials and workmanship (huge!). Clones were pretty shitty when china was just getting started knocking off designs.

Now they are using better quality metals and their machine skills and equipment have come a long way to where there is usually little difference between a good clone and an authentic considering the difference in price. Some clones have actually improved on the authentics design (orchid).

As far as mechs, there isn't much difference in safety, its a tube or box with a button. How long the threads last and how well they're cut could be different and some people just like authentics.
 

fq06

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
I think it was grass roots back alley machine shops knocking attys out and then the big bucks shops with half million dollar machines saw the money in it and got in the game.
Being able to knock out 50,000 pieces in a few days that had 0.001 tolerance consistency and the knowledge that metal quality matters broght china's cloning game up to new levels that were on par with the states, russia and thailand's capabilites.

I could be wrong but I think there are more authentic designs coming out of the shops in china now than they are knocking off authentic desigs.
 

conanthewarrior

Gold Contributor
Member For 5 Years
A lot of the time this debate gets into a bit of a mess, for me though, I am fine with clones. The majority of my tanks are authentic, while my RDA's are clones.

Also, with mechanical mods I own mostly clones as to me, a high cost authentic is not worth it. I will pay good money for a regulated mod, but not a mech, as to me it is not worth it. People do have different opinions though and for some people, they go for authentic all the time, which is also fine to me.

Safety of a mech is down to the user, wether you have an authentic or a clone device.
 

martnargh

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
some clones are said to be better, some are worse, some are identical (1:1), it depends where the clone itself came from.
i have a couple clones, mostly to test the mods im unsure of and if i like them i will buy the authentic.
why authentic? because i want to support the companies that are doing right by us.
how are they doing right? well theyre basicallu the masterminds, the creators or these devices we love, without them even the cloners wouldnt have shit to clone and itd knock vape technology back a few notches. so to me, its the right thing to do.
granted, i dont think cloners hurt authentic sales, because someone buys a clone because its 20 bucks and that person would be to cheap to pay the 200 or 300 for the authentic anyways, thats how i see it.
also a lot of labels like tvl, los, averavape, avid/complyfe are deeply involved in washington, fighting for us, with some of the proceeds from what they sell.
so, its a personal thing. if you dont give a shit someones work is being ripped off and duplicated in china and you would probably never support that company anyway, so be it.
if you wanna be a fanboy, loyal to brands, so be it.
if you wanna be a collector, save money to buy high priced vape items, maybe turn around and sell it for 500% profit later on, so be it.
do whatever you want, you dont need anyones approval.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
 

Lost

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
The CE and the UL and all that.

I can't add to the clone debate. The following is just one shithead's view on a related concept... manufacturing.

Many times, there is single point of failure for any product. For electronics, that means when the single part fails, you're left with a door stop or a pricey repair bill.

Examples
--The failure point on newer washing machines is normally the electronics/boards.
--The failure point on my homemade desktop computer was a defective audio jack, which forced me to decide whether a) buy a random part and bust out with the soldering gun or 2) buy a new mother board. If this problem happened in a laptop, I'd be screwed.
--The failure point for my first mod was a non-repairable defect in the coding that went into the chip. (It also had a bad 410 seal, which would have killed the board eventually due to juice leaks.)
--From the hardware end... the failure point on both of my (recently returned) Milwaukee drills were the gear cases. Very wobbly.

The reason why failure points are important to understand is because even reputable manufacturers can get their hands on one single part that ends up failing. This is a product-specific issue. Which is why it can be risky to be an "early adopter." Even a workhorse like the Toyota Tacoma has had "crappy" years (2007/2009), due to a couple nagging issues.

Entire manufacturers can suck. For name brands, I have had the most problems with Ridgid and Ryobi, and it turns out, they are both manufactured by TTI out of Hong Kong. And yup, those Milwaukee drills were built by TTI was well.

Manufacturers have sort-of-secret percentages on hand for products that will fail right out of the box, or soon after purchasing. That's why I sometimes use Consumer Reports as a supplement for certain purchases. It's an easier way to start figuring out those percentages.

You mentioned CE. This is essentially China Export, and there is a large contingent of people who are critical of anything with the CE logo. These companies tend to cut more corners to make the items cheaper. Which is why you constantly hear people make fun of anything electrical from Harbor Freight.


CE Marks.png

The logo on the left is the European Union logo for Conformite Europeenne. The one on the right is a conveniently copied China Export logo. To complicate matters further, I've actually seen China Export logos that are absolutely identical to the European one. There is zero oversight on this in China.

When it comes to boards, there are soldering methods that are cheaper. There is the overall quality than can be compromised by vibration of the unit, or the heat of the unit, if the parts aren't made to withstand them. Even in CE products, there is a lot of planning involved in capacitor/etc layout. But how long should the thing last? Hopefully just as long as the warranty is in place. Which leads to complaints of "planned obsolescence."

If you see a pro do a teardown of an electronic and inspect the guts, you will become a believer in the planned obsolescence idea. Lower-quality plastics for the shell, sloppy machining of the metals, cheaper lubricants for moving parts. I've personally seen CE boards with fingerprints on them.

All this is why buying electronics can be so frustrating. Even if you go to websites and forums hoping to get a broad consensus, you walk away with a brain full of limp hyperbole from people who say "I will never buy Dewalt again" (after their first Dewalt purchase) or "This is a quality unit" (after using a mod for a few hours and noticing that it feels good in-hand.)

Can cheap electronics last you forever? Maybe. I've had my Harbor Freight digital caliper for over 10 years now, and the only problem is that the plastic battery compartment door broke. I've also purchased a Harbor Freight multi-tool that didn't last through a single job.

It's a crap shoot. Buy according to your expected usage level. Pay what you can afford.


Side note: For 2016 work only, my favorite companies for quality and/or customer service are all coincidentally from the U.S.
Kohler (Wisconsin)
Moen (Ohio)
VitaMix (Ohio; about 5 miles from Moen. Ha.)
Lodge (Tennessee)
McGregor Fence (Massachusetts)
U.S.A. Ohm Meters (Florida)
 

ej1024

VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 4 Years
I can't add to the clone debate. The following is just one shithead's view on a related concept... manufacturing.

Many times, there is single point of failure for any product. For electronics, that means when the single part fails, you're left with a door stop or a pricey repair bill.

Examples
--The failure point on newer washing machines is normally the electronics/boards.
--The failure point on my homemade desktop computer was a defective audio jack, which forced me to decide whether a) buy a random part and bust out with the soldering gun or 2) buy a new mother board. If this problem happened in a laptop, I'd be screwed.
--The failure point for my first mod was a non-repairable defect in the coding that went into the chip. (It also had a bad 410 seal, which would have killed the board eventually due to juice leaks.)
--From the hardware end... the failure point on both of my (recently returned) Milwaukee drills were the gear cases. Very wobbly.

The reason why failure points are important to understand is because even reputable manufacturers can get their hands on one single part that ends up failing. This is a product-specific issue. Which is why it can be risky to be an "early adopter." Even a workhorse like the Toyota Tacoma has had "crappy" years (2007/2009), due to a couple nagging issues.

Entire manufacturers can suck. For name brands, I have had the most problems with Ridgid and Ryobi, and it turns out, they are both manufactured by TTI out of Hong Kong. And yup, those Milwaukee drills were built by TTI was well.

Manufacturers have sort-of-secret percentages on hand for products that will fail right out of the box, or soon after purchasing. That's why I sometimes use Consumer Reports as a supplement for certain purchases. It's an easier way to start figuring out those percentages.

You mentioned CE. This is essentially China Export, and there is a large contingent of people who are critical of anything with the CE logo. These companies tend to cut more corners to make the items cheaper. Which is why you constantly hear people make fun of anything electrical from Harbor Freight.


View attachment 61195

The logo on the left is the European Union logo for Conformite Europeenne. The one on the right is a conveniently copied China Export logo. To complicate matters further, I've actually seen China Export logos that are absolutely identical to the European one. There is zero oversight on this in China.

When it comes to boards, there are soldering methods that are cheaper. There is the overall quality than can be compromised by vibration of the unit, or the heat of the unit, if the parts aren't made to withstand them. Even in CE products, there is a lot of planning involved in capacitor/etc layout. But how long should the thing last? Hopefully just as long as the warranty is in place. Which leads to complaints of "planned obsolescence."

If you see a pro do a teardown of an electronic and inspect the guts, you will become a believer in the planned obsolescence idea. Lower-quality plastics for the shell, sloppy machining of the metals, cheaper lubricants for moving parts. I've personally seen CE boards with fingerprints on them.

All this is why buying electronics can be so frustrating. Even if you go to websites and forums hoping to get a broad consensus, you walk away with a brain full of limp hyperbole from people who say "I will never buy Dewalt again" (after their first Dewalt purchase) or "This is a quality unit" (after using a mod for a few hours and noticing that it feels good in-hand.)

Can cheap electronics last you forever? Maybe. I've had my Harbor Freight digital caliper for over 10 years now, and the only problem is that the plastic battery compartment door broke. I've also purchased a Harbor Freight multi-tool that didn't last through a single job.

It's a crap shoot. Buy according to your expected usage level. Pay what you can afford.


Side note: For 2016 work only, my favorite companies for quality and/or customer service are all coincidentally from the U.S.
Kohler (Wisconsin)
Moen (Ohio)
VitaMix (Ohio; about 5 miles from Moen. Ha.)
Lodge (Tennessee)
McGregor Fence (Massachusetts)
U.S.A. Ohm Meters (Florida)

That's it?


VAPE ON
 

ej1024

VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 4 Years
My goon rda is clone
Look
09ee547a303f0d6a0798602ed13eea8b.jpg



VAPE ON
 

trlrtrash13

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
My take on clones is you get what you can pay for, and then you get what you paid for.
 

skt239

VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
I have a few clone RDA's and also their authentic counterparts, I honestly can't tell the difference. One of the clones has a looser top cap but that's about it.
 

Gregjl

Bronze Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Thanks Everybody. And Lost, that's hysterical about the CE
 

martnargh

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
in ameravape products the clones will not thread into the authentics. so you cant get any of the complyfe modified attachments like custom buttons, hybrid tops, stacked extension.... only the sleeves will work with clones.
some might care, some not. personally i like customizing the appearance of the mod.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
 

f1r3b1rd

https://cookingwithlegs.com/
Staff member
Senior Moderator
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
VU Challenge Team
Member For 5 Years
VU Patreon
My goon rda is clone
Look
09ee547a303f0d6a0798602ed13eea8b.jpg



VAPE ON
emoji36.png
That's a nice clone ... What tip is that?

to the broader point though- not all clones are created equal.

The clone debate is so silly .... I cant remember having serious cut throat debates on Winston VS Camel.
 

Zamazam

Evil Vulcan's do it with Logic
VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 5 Years
Exactly. Good 1:1 clones are more prevalent now that China knows that utter crap won't sell. I have a collection of both authentic and clones. The argument against either is moot. What ever you like is just fine.
 

f1r3b1rd

https://cookingwithlegs.com/
Staff member
Senior Moderator
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
VU Challenge Team
Member For 5 Years
VU Patreon
Exactly. Good 1:1 clones are more prevalent now that China knows that utter crap won't sell. I have a collection of both authentic and clones. The argument against either is moot. What ever you like is just fine.
I love the separate divisions
- the one side that wont buy anything other than clones, the other that wont buy anything other than authentic- both sides bash each other like it really matters.
then you have what appears to be most people who tend towards both depending on the situation.
 

Lost

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
that's hysterical about the CE

It gets worse.

It's not just the China CE mark that's bullshit. The European CE mark is a turd as well, since manufacturers are allowed to self-confirm they met the standards and slap the logo on any damn thing.

To remove myself from the vaping debate, I'll shift to LEDs.

Third-party testers like UL and Intertek (ETL) might save you from Death by Electronics, but you have to know what they test for. I have an LED desk lamp with an ETL logo on it that was made in China. It had a shit LED in it that crapped out in months.

How shitty? On the right is a Cree. In the middle is a clone of a Cree. On the left is a clone of the clone. My shit LED was lower-end than the clone of the clone. Did it advertise as having a Cree inside? No. Because who's going to advertise sadness?

Cree vs Clone vs Coned clone.png

I'm doing more work with LEDs lately, and it's as depressing as reading on this forum about 18650's. People try to save money on stuff with "authentic" Cree bulbs by buying them straight from China or on eBay, and they're knockoffs.So for LED lights I install, I do actually look for the UL logo as well as the Energy Star logo. I have personally talked to people at UL, and my cohort has talked to Energy Star, so I trust them more than not.

Overall, it takes way too long to educate yourself to learn about and find certain kinds of electronics that might work the way you want them to. Just like it's been taking you way too long to read my posts. Ha.
 

fartbubble

Silver Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Did it advertise as having a Cree inside? No. Because who's going to advertise sadness?

This made me laugh harder than it should have

I like their bulbs (though my whole place is filled with Hue right now)
 

anen

Silver Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
It gets worse.

It's not just the China CE mark that's bullshit. The European CE mark is a turd as well, since manufacturers are allowed to self-confirm they met the standards and slap the logo on any damn thing.

To remove myself from the vaping debate, I'll shift to LEDs.

Third-party testers like UL and Intertek (ETL) might save you from Death by Electronics, but you have to know what they test for. I have an LED desk lamp with an ETL logo on it that was made in China. It had a shit LED in it that crapped out in months.

How shitty? On the right is a Cree. In the middle is a clone of a Cree. On the left is a clone of the clone. My shit LED was lower-end than the clone of the clone. Did it advertise as having a Cree inside? No. Because who's going to advertise sadness?

View attachment 61274

I'm doing more work with LEDs lately, and it's as depressing as reading on this forum about 18650's. People try to save money on stuff with "authentic" Cree bulbs by buying them straight from China or on eBay, and they're knockoffs.So for LED lights I install, I do actually look for the UL logo as well as the Energy Star logo. I have personally talked to people at UL, and my cohort has talked to Energy Star, so I trust them more than not.

Overall, it takes way too long to educate yourself to learn about and find certain kinds of electronics that might work the way you want them to. Just like it's been taking you way too long to read my posts. Ha.
Cree has been around forever now. No wonder there are clones of the clones. Are you building custom flashlights or?
 

Lost

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Are you building custom flashlights or?

Home lighting and municipal street lighting conversion.

I really really want an 18650 headlamp. There's at least one good starter thread here... and Candlepower Forums is the shit.
 

nightshard

It's VG/PG not PG/VG
VU Donator
Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
It's good if you want to get the feel of the authentic before buying it.
It's good if you don't have the money or don't want to spend so much on the authentic.
it's good if you want to get it right now, but the authentic is on a long waiting list.
It's not good for the manufacturer of the authentic.
 

f1r3b1rd

https://cookingwithlegs.com/
Staff member
Senior Moderator
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
VU Challenge Team
Member For 5 Years
VU Patreon
It's good if you want to get the feel of the authentic before buying it.
It's good if you don't have the money or don't want to spend so much on the authentic.
it's good if you want to get it right now, but the authentic is on a long waiting list.
It's not good for the manufacturer of the authentic.

I don't know about that last point.
There have been a few authentics I would not have known about more less saught out; without, others having the clones
Hurricane 1.3, NaRda, Darang and Veritas are the first that pop in my mind.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

anen

Silver Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Had four different clones of SMPL before I got a hold of authentics and there was nothing good about that. If I had to judge SMPL by clones that I had, I would never purchase an authentic.
 

OneBadWolf

VU Donator
Gold Contributor
ECF Refugee
Member For 5 Years
Candlepower Forums is the shit.


Budget Light Forums is pretty good as well. They backed me up after Fasttech sold me 3 lights in row with fake emitters described as authentic Crees. (2 of the 3 being replacements for the first).

I'll never buy another light there again.
 

Canadian Vaper

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
Reddit Exile
Clones offer people like me with little to no vape budget a chance to try a design before I sink some money into an authentic another thing is some authentic's I wouldn't even consider buying since they are extremely overpriced, "cough Velocity cough"
 

OneBadWolf

VU Donator
Gold Contributor
ECF Refugee
Member For 5 Years
I prefer authentics, but some clones are quite good. Many authentics are, or more importantly, would be overpriced, were there no clone market.

A good design at a fair price need not fear clones. The RX200 and Boreas come to mind.
 

VU Sponsors

Top