Yep agree. all taxes the same. Income tax for example should be a flat rate tax on ALL income with no deductions. Would likely run about 10%.
Become a Patron!
CLOSED- Debate Invitation to ECF Troublemakers
- Thread starter pcrdude
- Start date
- Status
AndriaD
Yes, I DO wear a mask! I'm vaccinated, too!
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
ECF Refugee
Member For 5 Years
I would have to disagree, particularly on the consumption of sugar and red meat. I love sugar -- I love it so much, in fact, that I never want to have to do without it, so I consciously exercise moderation in its consumption. And at the age of nearly 55, in a family rife with both obesity and diabetes, I am neither obese nor diabetic.
As for red meat... I have gallbladder issues, which means I cannot consume much cholesterol at all, without extremely uncomfortable digestive problems -- my solution to that is that I consume very little egg -- mostly, via baked goods, but no actual eggs, except for egg whites which contain little if any cholesterol; and by choosing to eat only the absolute leanest beef -- filet mignon, or 93% lean ground beef -- and very little even of that. Other meats contain very little cholesterol and thus offer me little problem.
The main problem with those so-called "problem foods" is when people don't exercise good judgment in their consumption -- just like with alcohol. Taxing them excessively falls into the category of trying to protect us from ourselves -- which is impossible, foolhardy, stupid, and a violation of our personal rights. If we choose to consume them unwisely, then we are obligated to pay for that unwise choice: karma. Trying to protect people from their own karma is ridiculous.
Andria
Anything in excess is bad for you.Even vaping!
But there is help for the overvapers.
I'm very glad you are watching out for your health Andria. Sugar can be bad for certain people without causing obesity or diabetes. It is essentially an "empty" food.
Think about french fries for a minute. Maybe bacon won't apply to you, but there are plenty of foods that are KNOWN to cause health problems for the vast majority of people.
BTW, I don't think the alcohol tax is anything more than a "sin tax". I am not aware of any funds from that tax going to help people with alcoholism or problems with alcohol. Do they?
AndriaD
Yes, I DO wear a mask! I'm vaccinated, too!
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
ECF Refugee
Member For 5 Years
Not sure about problems with alcohol, but I know that GA was one of the very last to comply with the 21+ drinking age, and it had to do with federal DOT money, so somehow the alcohol excise tax is bound up/porkbellied with DOT money.
Bacon is pork, so almost zero cholesterol -- it might make you fat, but it won't make your arteries fat.
That lack of cholesterol is why I can eat it, and sausage too. But really the key is moderation -- eat too much of anything and it's not good for you. I've always known that; my problems with alcohol are because I simply CANNOT be moderate with it -- one drink and I'm off to the races. It took me till I was 31 to really understand that, and accept that it wasn't ever going to change.Yes, processed sugar is an empty food... and to me, and to a lot of people, life without it is pretty empty. What's the point of living, without pleasure? That's the whole problem with public health -- they think we should be perfect little bots and live forever -- except nobody lives forever, and most wouldn't want to live at all, without enjoyment. You just have to moderate the enjoyment, so it doesn't STEAL your life.
Andria
All good points Andria. BUT, red meat causes other issues besides cholesterol, and (as you noted), there are societal problems with alcohol. Your drinking age example doesn't really deal with the excise tax on alcohol. It has to do with Federal Highway Funds.
So, back on point, is it OK to tax "things" more if there is a documented health detriment to society. Junk food, red meat, processed meat, nitrosamine containing meat, etc.
Quote:
“The association between consumption of red and processed meats and cancer, particularly colorectal cancer, is very consistent,” says Marji McCullough, PhD, a nutritional epidemiologist with the American Cancer Society.
After a systemic review of scientific studies, an expert panel of the World Cancer Research Fund and the American Institute for Cancer Research concluded in 2007 that “red or processed meats are convincing or probable sources of some cancers.” Their report says evidence is convincing for a link between red meat, processed meat, and colorectal cancer, and limited but suggestive for links to lung, esophageal, stomach, pancreatic, and endometrial cancers."
source: http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/the-truth-about-red-meat?page=2
I'm posing the question on a whole society level.....
So, back on point, is it OK to tax "things" more if there is a documented health detriment to society. Junk food, red meat, processed meat, nitrosamine containing meat, etc.
Quote:
“The association between consumption of red and processed meats and cancer, particularly colorectal cancer, is very consistent,” says Marji McCullough, PhD, a nutritional epidemiologist with the American Cancer Society.
After a systemic review of scientific studies, an expert panel of the World Cancer Research Fund and the American Institute for Cancer Research concluded in 2007 that “red or processed meats are convincing or probable sources of some cancers.” Their report says evidence is convincing for a link between red meat, processed meat, and colorectal cancer, and limited but suggestive for links to lung, esophageal, stomach, pancreatic, and endometrial cancers."
source: http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/the-truth-about-red-meat?page=2
I'm posing the question on a whole society level.....
Close, they are more of the substance that is extruded from the distal end of the bovine alimentary canal.Let me get this straight, the debate with ECF trouble makers has to do with red meat?
f1r3b1rd
https://cookingwithlegs.com/
Staff member
Senior Moderator
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
VU Challenge Team
Member For 5 Years
VU Patreon
get enough ex-smokers together and youre bound to have argumnets. Restrict what they can and cant say and you have a shitstormLet me get this straight, the debate with ECF trouble makers has to do with red meat?
Which translates to ABANDON FORUM, which further translates to a rise in VU membership and happier members.
AndriaD
Yes, I DO wear a mask! I'm vaccinated, too!
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
ECF Refugee
Member For 5 Years
I simply don't see it as being any of gov't business, what we eat, drink, or otherwise consume. The purpose of the FDA and USDA is to PREVENT bad things being present, and to provide proper labelling and identification of contents. At that point, it's up to US. If we eat stupidly, we suffer ill health. If we eat wisely, we'll enjoy better health, but not all ill health conditions -- including and perhaps especially cancer -- are because of what we eat, drink, or otherwise consume. It's a fact that nobody really understands the exact causes of cancer, or it would have been licked by now -- we know some things that contribute to a potential for it, and avoiding or lessening those things can go a long way to preventing it -- but when you consider that probably the baseline cause of ANY cancer is a malfunction in the DNA... there's just no way to prevent EVERYTHING that could cause damage to DNA -- some of those damages are in-born.
Living on a planet bathed in solar radiation means that cancer is a perpetual risk. Without that solar radiation, there is no life at all.
Andria
Living on a planet bathed in solar radiation means that cancer is a perpetual risk. Without that solar radiation, there is no life at all.
Andria
Oh nice one!!!
I'll take your responses as being of the "I do not agree variety". Although there is a proven causal link between colorectal cancer and red/processed meat consumption.
All good. That is my position as well, but for some the same, and some different reasons.
It's a "slippery slope" argument, but one we are already on in the US. In Japan, there is a fine if one's waist size is over a certain limit.
:O
AndriaD
Yes, I DO wear a mask! I'm vaccinated, too!
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
ECF Refugee
Member For 5 Years
I'll take your responses as being of the "I do not agree variety". Although there is a proven causal link between colorectal cancer and red/processed meat consumption.
All good. That is my position as well, but for some the same, and some different reasons.
It's a "slippery slope" argument, but one we are already on in the US. In Japan, there is a fine if one's waist size is over a certain limit.
:O
I'm sure there are reasoned arguments for avoiding "processed" meats, and a lot of other foods... but it's not up to the gov't to impose their views on the citizens; it's up to the citizens to make wise choices. A good example is the recent discovery that eating a very low-fat diet is not necessarily the Manna from Heaven it's been portrayed to be -- the gov't, public health, even doctors, can be WRONG. Just look at all the idiot doctors saying that vaping is just as bad as smoking.
It is simply not gov't job to decide what is good for us, and make sure we stick to it -- they are not our parents, and we are not children.Andria
I'm sure there are reasoned arguments for avoiding "processed" meats, and a lot of other foods... but it's not up to the gov't to impose their views on the citizens; it's up to the citizens to make wise choices. A good example is the recent discovery that eating a very low-fat diet is not necessarily the Manna from Heaven it's been portrayed to be -- the gov't, public health, even doctors, can be WRONG. Just look at all the idiot doctors saying that vaping is just as bad as smoking.
Andria
And the bolded part is what any "sin-tax", or health related tax ignores. And that included cigarettes.
Therefore, unless vaping is proven to have a greater negative impact on health than "junk-food", there is no rationale to tax it above regular sales tax.
BUT, there is a school of thought, that seems to be based on "if it is going to have negative consequences for society (monetarily), then tax it at a higher rate" to reduce the financial burden for the masses.
Here is an example:
Helmet laws for motorcyclists. I wear All The Gear All The Time (ATGATT), but why can the law require that I wear a helmet? Shouldn't I be free to choose?
Hmmmmmmm
AndriaD
Yes, I DO wear a mask! I'm vaccinated, too!
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
ECF Refugee
Member For 5 Years
And the bolded part is what any "sin-tax", or health related tax ignores. And that included cigarettes.
Therefore, unless vaping is proven to have a greater negative impact on health than "junk-food", there is no rationale to tax it above regular sales tax.
BUT, there is a school of thought, that seems to be based on "if it is going to have negative consequences for society (monetarily), then tax it at a higher rate" to reduce the financial burden for the masses.
Here is an example:
Helmet laws for motorcyclists. I wear All The Gear All The Time (ATGATT), but why can the law require that I wear a helmet? Shouldn't I be free to choose?
Hmmmmmmm
Same reason they can require seatbelts -- it drastically lowers mortality rates. And because nobody wants to see bodies or heads spread all over the pavement like strawberry jam.
Andria
UncleRJ
Will write reviews for Beer!
Staff member
Senior Moderator
VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
Reviewer
Moderator
Like Rip Trippers?
Rip trippers is bad for you even in minimal doses.
But isn't that the same "personal choice" to which you referred earlier? If not, please explain the difference.
AndriaD
Yes, I DO wear a mask! I'm vaccinated, too!
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
ECF Refugee
Member For 5 Years
But isn't that the same "personal choice" to which you referred earlier? If not, please explain the difference.
The difference is that with food, it's only a theory, a possibility. With helmets and seatbelts, it's a hard fact.
Andria
Lots of helmetless riders crash and survive, as well as loads of people in cars without seatbelts. Lots of people eat junk food to excess, have serious health conditions, and get government assistance for medical treatment (paid for by all of us).
Those are also facts.
A tax on junk food will make it less appealing to buy, saving lives and money will it not?
Life is a theory?
Our known universe may be as one cell or a virus to something larger.
Our known universe may be as one cell or a virus to something larger.
haleysdadda
AKA BILL
VU Donator
Silver Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
ECF Refugee
Or the snot of a rat! Or maybe something we can't even imagine! AHHHHHHH! Intelligent discourse! This day just started looking up!we are but just a galaxy on the collar of a cat...
Dis course or dat course it is all good.
However we ARE the only intelligent life in the universe
With giant cockroaches wearing peoples skinswe are but just a galaxy on the collar of a cat...
haleysdadda
AKA BILL
VU Donator
Silver Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
ECF Refugee
Vapers?!However we ARE the only intelligent life in the universe
Of course!
we are but just a galaxy on the collar of a cat...
Didn't Mark Twain say that?
Then what a waste of space.However we ARE the only intelligent life in the universe
Yep reality is a personal thing.Reality...What a Concept.
Inconceivable. How would politicians curry favor with their donors and other friends if there were no deductions, credits, or exemptions for them to carve out? Then there's the problem that every tax increase would be fought tooth and nail by the entire base of tax payers instead of just the subgroups, too small to mount meaningful opposition, that carefully targeted taxes increases are currently aimed at. No sir, this is politically unacceptable -- to our rulers.
Yep that is precisely a BIG reason why there should be total flat rate income taxes with no deductions.
And also why it will never happen unless I become the supreme ruler of this chaos.
AndriaD
Yes, I DO wear a mask! I'm vaccinated, too!
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
ECF Refugee
Member For 5 Years
Another guy named Robert Cromwell thought he'd be the supreme ruler and fix everything.... and after he died, the invited the king back...
Andria
Gawd I love you sometimes...Cheers!Another guy named Robert Cromwell thought he'd be the supreme ruler and fix everything.... and after he died, the invited the king back...
Andria
Ohh you know my history?. Did not actually dieAnother guy named Robert Cromwell thought he'd be the supreme ruler and fix everything.... and after he died, the invited the king back...
Andria
Learned a lot since then, would do better this time.
But the job sucks, so won't do it again.
Another guy named Robert Cromwell thought he'd be the supreme ruler and fix everything.... and after he died, the invited the king back...
Andria
That was Oliver Cromwell and his son Richard.
AndriaD
Yes, I DO wear a mask! I'm vaccinated, too!
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
ECF Refugee
Member For 5 Years
Yeah, Oliver, that's right. But I don't think his son ever did anything. After Oliver died, they invited Charles II back.
I just wish that those puritans who left there when James and Charles I were on the throne had been put to death instead of set free to pollute north america with their rigid insanity.
Andria
I led some revolting pheasants I think it was.
AndriaD
Yes, I DO wear a mask! I'm vaccinated, too!
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
ECF Refugee
Member For 5 Years
Who the fuck is that guy ROBINO??
that dude be editing so much shit over there.. I felt bad for the peeps over there, good thing they finally realize how fuck up that place is!! Good morning that forum trouble makers
VAPE IT
It's a woman. Of the 3 horrible mods over there, she's actually the best, at least she has a personality. But yeah, she's always real busy trying to suck up to the admin, being a control freak like the others.
Andria
AndriaD
Yes, I DO wear a mask! I'm vaccinated, too!
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
ECF Refugee
Member For 5 Years
Those folk over there, they from the USA RIGHT?
VAPE IT
Most of them... but it's owned by a Brit.
Andria
- Status