Confused about TC

[pescadore]

I always thought that the only thing will work with TC was nickel or Ti. I was in temp control using Ti coils and I switched to my Aromamizer with a dual Kanthal build and did not change the settings. I would have thought that the TC would not have let the mod (SMY Mini 60 TC) fire but it fired just fine. Is it possible to run TC with kanthol and will it do anything. I turned it down to about 200 degrees and it seems to be a nice cooler vape. Am I gonna screw up anything or risking any kind of dangerous situation ?

I think I answered my own question so you can disregard. On a long hit the error message of Atomizer not supported comes on the screen. Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

[Bean8379]

I have researched this, and here is my very basic and limited understanding. I may be right and I may be wrong, but I'm going to attempt an explanation. Temperature control works by adjusting the watts per second based on the resistance of the coil. The mod does not actually read the temperature. What it does is graph how the resistance of the coil changes, and adjusts the watts per second based on the resistance of the coil. Nickel wire changes resistance based on temperature, and this is how the chip is able to control the temperature. It knows how many watts it needs to achieve a certain temperature, so if the coil is pulling more watts than required for the set temperature, it automatically adjusts the watts per second in real time. Kanthal resistance change based on temperature is negligible, so the chip can not accurately gauge resistance changes in kanthal based on watts per second. Therefore, while the chip will fire kanthal in tc mode, it cannot adjust the watts per second because the resistance of the coil does not change enough to be read.

One thing does seem illogical about this to me. Although the resistance of kanthal doesn't change with temperature, neither would the watts per second required to achieve a certain temperature at that resistance. Or am I missing something?

I think I figured it out. With resistance wire, it will get warmer the longer current is applied continuously, or the more frequently it is applied in bursts. So therefore even though the watts per second may not change, the temperature will still change based on the frequency and duration of current being applied.

 

[Powerman]

The curve is a function of temp for a given resistance. It doesn't have anything to do with watts. The chip regulates power based on resistance rise.

 

[Bean8379]

Watts=power

 

[Bean8379]

Wattage requirements at any given voltage change with resistance, nickel wire resistance increases with temperature therefore as the resistance increases so would the watts. A tc mod would have to control watts per second in real time to control the temperature, otherwise it wouldn't actually be temperature control.

 

[Wingsfan0310]

I always thought that the only thing will work with TC was nickel or Ti. I was in temp control using Ti coils and I switched to my Aromamizer with a dual Kanthal build and did not change the settings. I would have thought that the TC would not have let the mod (SMY Mini 60 TC) fire but it fired just fine. Is it possible to run TC with kanthol and will it do anything. I turned it down to about 200 degrees and it seems to be a nice cooler vape. Am I gonna screw up anything or risking any kind of dangerous situation ?

Not really a bad question. Some mods will fire Kanthal in TC mode (IPVD2 comes to mind, I believe my IPV3 Li also does) However they don't control temperature with Kanthal, just fire at the wattage (joules) it's set at.. Some mods will kick themselves out of TC into power mode (my DNA200's) or give you the error message. The one thing they all have in common is, they don't regulate the temperature with Kanthal.

Cheers,
Steve

 

[Powerman]

Wattage requirements at any given voltage change with resistance, nickel wire resistance increases with temperature therefore as the resistance increases so would the watts. A tc mod would have to control watts per second in real time to control the temperature, otherwise it wouldn't actually be temperature control.

Temperature Risistance Curve is a function of temperature and resistance. Resistance is NOT a function of power. That would be called a power resistance curve.

 

[cascadian]

There is confusion about more than TC in this thread...

A tc mod would have to control watts per second in real time to control the temperature, otherwise it wouldn't actually be temperature control.

A mod does not control, supply or otherwise do anything pertaining to wattage except for use the users setting when calculating the VOLTAGE supplied based on the measured resistance, to obtain the desired outcome. Wattage is the result and can only be indirectly controlled by adjusting the voltage based on the controllers programming.

Variable wattage devices were introduced as a marketing ploy to make otherwise old technology new again. For some reason it was a gimmick that stuck. And has since perpetuated wide spread ignorance in the vaping community. If knowledge is power and ignorance is bliss, at least we have a very happy community.

 

[Bean8379]

Temperature Risistance Curve is a function of temperature and resistance.

Yes, because resistance increases with temperature.

Resistance is NOT a function of power. That would be called a power resistance curve.

Number one, this is not what I said. Number two, you are assuming that the voltage remains the same at any given temperature setting. But given the fact that resistance increases with temperature, this would be illogical because as resistance increases, voltage requirements increase therefore if voltage remained constant as resistance increased, the temperature would fluctuate. In order to control the temperature, the chip must increase the voltage as the resistance increases. I had this backwards before, but the mod still needs to adjust voltage in order to control the temperature.

 

[Powerman]

Number one, this is not what I said. Number two, you are assuming that the wattage remains the same at any given temperature setting. But given the fact that resistance increases with temperature, this would be illogical because as resistance increases, wattage requirements decrease therefore if wattage remained constant as resistance increased, the temperature would rise. In order to control the temperature, the chip must decrease the wattage as the resistance increases. I had this backwards before, but the mod still needs to adjust wattage in order to control the temperature.

You are trying to be be way too smart. It doesn't have anything to do with power. Not one thing. Every ingle substance has a resistance change due to temp. Period, end of story. For a given resistance change, there is a corresponding temp change. In oder to know that change, you have to know baseline resistance at a given temp. Resistance is not a function of power. Period. You are the one that said "the chip knows how many watts it needs for a temp". False. It doesn't have a clue how many watts it needs because there is no such curve programed to tell it that. And if you did want to go that route, you would need more inputs that resistance, temp, and watts.

 

[Bean8379]

I do not consider variable wattage to be a gimmick. Here is why. In an unregulated device, the power drops as the voltage drops. In a regulated device, the chip uses bucking technology to maintain a constant output so that even though the battery charge level may drop, the quality of the vape stays the same until the battery goes completely dead. I consider temp control more of a gimmick, because voltage is voltage, the only difference is that the resistance of nickel wire changes with temperature, so it seems like more work to do the same thing. If your vape is too hot, turn the power down.

 

[Bean8379]

You are trying to be be way too smart. It doesn't have anything to do with power. Not one thing. Every ingle substance has a resistance change due to temp. Period, end of story. For a given resistance change, there is a corresponding temp change. In oder to know that change, you have to know baseline resistance at a given temp. Resistance is not a function of power. Period. You are the one that said "the chip knows how many watts it needs for a temp". False. It doesn't have a clue how many watts it needs because there is no such curve programed to tell it that. And if you did want to go that route, you would need more inputs that resistance, temp, and watts.

Every substance has some change in resistance based on temperature. By comparison, the resistance change in kanthal based on temperature is negligible. The power requirements change based on resistance. Two coils of different resistance will have different requirements to achieve the same temperature. In nickel, there is a considerable change in resistance based on temperature. Therefore, the chip has to make adjustments based on the resistance at any given temperature in order to maintain that temperature. Nickel does not maintain a constant temperature based on resistance, but rather the other way around. It's resistance is based on its temperature. And when resistance changes, power requirements change.

 

[MrScaryZ]

The TCR of Kanthal is so low that it is close to impossible to adequately get it to work.. The only way to test this as of now for yourself is to have a DNA 200 and load the CSV from www.steam-engine.org to a profile on the DNA 200 and try a burn test.. So far I have not been able to get it to work at all again because the TCR is so low its close to impossible with current technology implemented in the Vape world

 

[ej1024]

Here's what I think about TC
I DONT LIKE IT!!!



VAPE ON

 

[Bean8379]

https://www.misthub.com/blog/tutorial-guide-to-temperature-control-vaping/ according to the paragraph under "temperature control vaping overview" I had it right the first time. As temperature increases, so does resistance. The chip adjusts the power based on the resistance of the coil.

 

[Slurp812]

One thing does seem illogical about this to me. Although the resistance of kanthal doesn't change with temperature, neither would the watts per second required to achieve a certain temperature at that resistance. Or am I missing something?

Takes more power to reach a temperature than it does to maintain.

 

[cascadian]

I do not consider variable wattage to be a gimmick. Here is why. In an unregulated device, the power drops as the voltage drops. In a regulated device, the chip uses bucking technology to maintain a constant output so that even though the battery charge level may drop, the quality of the vape stays the same until the battery goes completely dead.

Buck circuitry is used to regulate voltages less than the source voltage. Boost circuitry is used to regulate voltages higher than the source voltage. Your statement justifies the benefits of a regulated device not a regulated variable wattage device.

To clarify my earlier statement... When variable wattage devices were originally introduced, they were a simple redesign of an existing variable voltage device. As a mod supplies Voltage not Watts, it logically makes more sense to have a variable voltage device.

The chip adjusts the power based on the resistance of the coil.

No, it adjusts Voltage which results in a change in power.

 

[Bean8379]

I have my terminology a little mixed up, but I understand the basic concept and to me, it is really just a fancier way of doing the same thing. If you adjust the power to kanthal or nichrome, the temperature will change. Same as with nickel. The only difference is that a tc chip reads changes in resistance and adjusts the power automatically. Big deal.

 

[Powerman]

Every substance has some change in resistance based on temperature. By comparison, the resistance change in kanthal based on temperature is negligible. The power requirements change based on resistance. Two coils of different resistance will have different requirements to achieve the same temperature. In nickel, there is a considerable change in resistance based on temperature. Therefore, the chip has to make adjustments based on the resistance at any given temperature in order to maintain that temperature. Nickel does not maintain a constant temperature based on resistance, but rather the other way around. It's resistance is based on its temperature. And when resistance changes, power requirements change.

So you said what you thought about TC. You said you could be right or wrong. I'm telling you you are flat wrong. And you want to argue you are right. You are twisting different things into something you think I right. One has nothing to do with the other. Stop, breath, and figure out your error. I have already told you what it is. But no matter how many times you want to repeat the faulty argument, it will never be correct.

 

[Bean8379]

Buck circuitry is used to regulate voltages less than the source voltage. Boost circuitry is used to regulate voltages higher than the source voltage. Your statement justifies the benefits of a regulated device not a regulated variable wattage device.

To clarify my earlier statement... When variable wattage devices were originally introduced, they were a simple redesign of an existing variable voltage device. As a mod supplies Voltage not Watts, it logically makes more sense to have a variable voltage device.

No, it adjusts Voltage which results in a change in power.

This is semantics. Again, variable/wattage/variable voltage, effectively same thing. Changing one changes the other, the point is the benefit of a regulated device over an unregulated device, who gives two shits what its called???? As far as tc goes, whether it adjusts voltage or power, it still has to make adjustments based on the resistance of the coil. This is the fundamental concept that temperature control is based on. Duh????

So you said what you thought about TC. You said you could be right or wrong. I'm telling you you are flat wrong. And you want to argue you are right. You are twisting different things into something you think I right. One has nothing to do with the other. Stop, breath, and figure out your error. I have already told you what it is. But no matter how many times you want to repeat the faulty argument, it will never be correct.

A temperature control chip reads changes in resistance that are based on temperature. It uses those changes in resistance to make necessary adjustments in order to control the temperature.

Resistance and temperature have a more linear relationship in nickel and titanium wire than kanthal or nichrome.

What is the difference between 0.1w and 0.01v? My regulated device adjusts in those increments.

Adjusting wattage in 0.1 increments has a different effect than adjusting voltage in 0.01 increments.

 

[cascadian]

A tc mod would have to control watts per second in real time to control the temperature, otherwise it wouldn't actually be temperature control.

My original response quoted this post ^ and no mod can control watts per second. A mod can control voltage that based on the controllers programming will change wattage. And you are continually changing your argument as the debate goes on because you obviously don't have a competent understanding of the topic.

What is the difference between 0.1w and 0.01v? My regulated device adjusts in those increments.

Watts law... W=VxA
Ohms law... V=AxR
Combine the two and you get... W=Vx(V/R)

In other words Wattage is a function of Voltage and Resistance in this application.

 

[Bean8379]

My original response quoted this post ^ and no mod can control watts per second. A mod can control voltage that based on the controllers programming will change wattage. And you are continually changing your argument as the debate goes on because you obviously don't have a competent understanding of the topic.

Watts law... W=VxA
Ohms law... V=AxR
Combine the two and you get... W=Vx(V/R)

In other words Wattage is a function of Voltage and Resistance in this application.

I was wrong at first, but I do now understand the basic concept. A temperature control chip reads changes in resistance that occur based on temperature, and uses those resistance readings to make adjustments.

 

[Powerman]

A temperature control chip reads changes in resistance that are based on temperature. It uses those changes in resistance to make necessary adjustments in order to control the temperature.

That is a correct statement. Which makes your earlier statement incorrect. Do you know why?

 

[Bean8379]

My original response quoted this post ^ and no mod can control watts per second. A mod can control voltage that based on the controllers programming will change wattage. And you are continually changing your argument as the debate goes on because you obviously don't have a competent understanding of the topic.

Watts law... W=VxA
Ohms law... V=AxR
Combine the two and you get... W=Vx(V/R)

In other words Wattage is a function of Voltage and Resistance in this application.

Ohms law is more commonly expressed as voltage divided by resistance equals amperage. You can multiply amperage and resistance to get voltage, but voltage and resistance are more easily known than what amperage is being drawn unless you are measuring amps. When you take a frehsly charged battery, you know what the voltage is and I would hope you would know the resistance of your coil if you are trying to figure out amps. It's more important for our purposes to determine the amperage anyway, so we don't explode the battery. In a regulated device, voltage is almost always known. In wattage mode, my device displays voltage and it also displays wattage in voltage mode. It also displays resistance to .01. It does not display amperage.

 

[Bean8379]

That is a correct statement. Which makes your earlier statement incorrect. Do you know why?

Because resistance has a direct correlation to voltage, not wattage.

 

[ej1024]

AND HERE WE GO AGAIN.......


VAPE ON

 

[Hottvapz]

AND HERE WE GO AGAIN.......


VAPE ON

Yuppers

 

[ej1024]

Yuppers

U go tired over there huh? Hahaha


VAPE ON

 

[Powerman]

Because resistance has a direct correlation to voltage, not wattage.

Tru Dat. Watts is irrelevant. Not beating a dead horse.... Safe current draw depends on a adequate conductor to not over heat. In a resistive heating circuit, heat is the goal. So you need to put more current through than the conductor can handle to produce heat. Temperature is dependent on the conductor and wattage. But wattage in one conductor could produce a 1F rise and in another a 1000F rise.

 

[Hottvapz]

U go tired over there huh? Hahaha


VAPE ON

Steve can go on for hours...just a time killer lol

 

[Bean8379]

AND HERE WE GO AGAIN.......


VAPE ON

Why is it that every time I get into an intelligent discussion, people will assume it's going to turn into an argument? And who is Steve?

 

[Hottvapz]

Why is it that every time I get into an intelligent discussion, people will assume it's going to turn into an argument? And who is Steve?

That was between me an ej from another thread nothing to do with you bro

 

[Bean8379]

Hey @Powerman, I asked this question in another thread but I didn't get an answer. If you take a higher resistance coil and a lower resistance coil and apply the same voltage, which one will heat up quicker? I thought the higher resistance coil but I am not sure that is correct.

 

[Bean8379]

That was between me an ej from another thread nothing to do with you bro

1, I asked ej. 2, if its a joke about me, I'd like to understand it.

 

[Hottvapz]

No about stevegmu

 

[Hottvapz]

1, I asked ej. 2, if its a joke about me, I'd like to understand it.

 

[ej1024]

Why is it that every time I get into an intelligent discussion, people will assume it's going to turn into an argument? And who is Steve?

Cuz it's always like that bro
You know this, but it's amazing how knowledgable you all are... About this TC mode.. I don't do TC or research about it
CANT TALK ABOUT IT..
Steve is a VAPER from Europe.. He's arguing right now, check it it's trending
The topic is VAPING AND HEADACHE


VAPE ON

 

[Hottvapz]

Yeah I am impressed with the TC stuff. I don't TC either. But good shit bro.

 

[Bean8379]

Well so far, this isn't an argument as far as I can tell and I have absolutely no intention of turning it into one. This is an intelligent discussion, and I have learned a lot from it. I'm very appreciative of that. I had inaccurate information, and it was corrected. I took no offense, and did not intentionally give any. I'm completely cool. Truthfully. All that stuff that happened the past 4-5 days, I'm letting it go. Certain people I ain't got no more rap for, and they will figure out who they are. No apologies will be given or expected.

 

[ej1024]

Steve can go on for hours...just a time killer lol

He's too much...


VAPE ON

 

[Bean8379]

And if you have to ask, the answer is yes.

 

[ej1024]

Well so far, this isn't an argument as far as I can tell and I have absolutely no intention of turning it into one. This is an intelligent discussion, and I have learned a lot from it. I'm very appreciative of that. I had inaccurate information, and it was corrected. I took no offense, and did not intentionally give any. I'm completely cool. Truthfully. All that stuff that happened the past 4-5 days, I'm letting it go. Certain people I ain't got no more rap for, and they will figure out who they are. No apologies will be given or expected.

If you know anything about vaping and headaches check this out.. It's about dehydration pg nicotine etcccc
http://vapingunderground.com/index.php?threads/Headaches-From-Vaping-!!!-WHY?!.153218/


VAPE ON

 

[Hottvapz]

And if you have to ask, the answer is yes.

Hey I let all go bro...I was impressed with your knowledge in this thread.

 

[ej1024]

Hey I let all go bro...I was impressed with your knowledge in this thread.

According to saddletramp
Bean assembles Harley's and shit.. Smart dude misunderstood by others


VAPE ON

 

[Hottvapz]

Good shit

 

[Bean8379]

According to saddletramp
Bean assembles Harley's and shit.. Smart dude misunderstood by others


VAPE ON

No, I don't build Harleys, he does. But I am working on a custom motorized bicycle. It's a 1956 roadmaster boys frame bicycle (adult sized, only called boys to differentiate from a girls or ladies frame), with suzuki hydraulic motorcycle forks, custom wheels that I spoked myself, a 3hp motor that should make 5hp with a couple small modifications, and a custom lighting/charging system which I also put together. It's geared to cruise at 30mph, reason for this is because lower gearing is easier on the automatic clutch and it will pull me up hills better. It's a single speed, no gears to shift through. I'm kinda stuck with it right now because I mounted the engine at an angle that the carb and exhaust were not designed to fit, this won't hurt the engine but I need to figure out how to rework the carb and exhaust mounts and I'm a little stuck with that. I also need to center the hubs in the wheels better. I haven't worked on it for a little while but I'll be back at it again soon.

 

[Powerman]

Resistance is directly proportional to length, and indirectly proportional to cross section. Larger wire gas less than smaller, longer more than shorter. The higher resistance, the faster it gets hot. Meaning, more resistance to current flow equals more electrical energy converted to thermal energy. Desirable in some applications, not so much in others.

 

[ej1024]

No, I don't build Harleys, he does. But I am working on a custom motorized bicycle. It's a 1956 roadmaster boys frame bicycle (adult sized, only called boys to differentiate from a girls or ladies frame), with suzuki hydraulic motorcycle forks, custom wheels that I spoked myself, a 3hp motor that should make 5hp with a couple small modifications, and a custom lighting/charging system which I also put together. It's geared to cruise at 30mph, reason for this is because lower gearing is easier on the automatic clutch and it will pull me up hills better. It's a single speed, no gears to shift through. I'm kinda stuck with it right now because I mounted the engine at an angle that the carb and exhaust were not designed to fit, this won't hurt the engine but I need to figure out how to rework the carb and exhaust mounts and I'm a little stuck with that. I also need to center the hubs in the wheels better. I haven't worked on it for a little while but I'll be back at it again soon.

God damn
I didn't have any idea what the hell you just said!!
Lol..


VAPE ON

 

[Bean8379]

Lol, basically I took a bicycle, put a motor on it with motorcycle forks, built my own wheels and it has front and rear lights that are powered by a battery but the battery is charged by a small generator which is driven by the rear tire. Hopefully that's a little easier to understand.

 

[Hottvapz]

Lol, basically I took a bicycle, put a motor on it with motorcycle forks, built my own wheels and it has front and rear lights that are powered by a battery but the battery is charged by a small generator which is driven by the rear tire. Hopefully that's a little easier to understand.

So its a custom moped?