thing is, with my flavorings i have and the juices.. they all come out clean.. acetoin or not.. nothing is being traced.. down to the lowest level..
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Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl, and Acetoin in Flavorings
- Thread starter RocketPuppy
- Start date
Me too-- I am looking forward to heat testing! My web research skills leave a lot to be desired, so if you know of any sites I should be watching for info & further research on this topic, I would be really grateful!
i will certainly be posting up on that.. and no worries.. sometimes putting things in single brackets help..
ie "black cherry nicvapes" or "black cherry nicvapes recipe"
and yes to heat testing.. i dont have a vv/vw.. but maybe if it is proven safe i might get one later down the road..
i can understand lirruping
they are working on bringing flavors out, they know they have only a few with acetoin, but.. i think they are doing more work with testing and other such things.. give them a bit of time, and i think the company will shine.. they are rather small, but good people trying to do their best..
the one thing that tickles me is that they do use outside labs for testing and consult with people that have been around..
it is a few of the creams.. but like i said, they are working on things..
Not to start a whole big thing--and I mean it sincerely--but I can't help but notice you said that they "know they only have a few with acetoin..." If they knew that, I wish they would instruct their customer service personnel to answer direct questions from potential customers with the truth! This sort of thing--any vendor's unwillingness to be frank and open about the information they do have--is what gets a bee in my bonnet.
I believe they are good people. I believe many (if not most) small-ish juice companies got into doing what they do for the same reasons most of us stopped smoking and started vaping. I also believe that at some level, what kind of people they are and their best intentions are all beside the point.
I think I am so sensitive to this issue in part because for nearly 30 years, through illness, financial exigency--come what may--I found a way to PAY cigarette companies to lie to me (or at least conceal information as well as their big bucks would allow) and to poison me. I am tired of feeling like a slave and tired of having no recourse, tired of being lied to. So my patience is a little thin.
On the other hand, I think it's actually really important that the "vaping community" include vendors--that there not be a huge division over this kind of stuff. Or is that the same hand? Yes, I think that's part of my first point: when juice vendors dance around the truth or outright lie because they feel they are covering their asses, they misunderstand the real situation, which is: we are all in the same boat.
Ok, well.. derp. So much for "no big thing".
Not to start a whole big thing--and I mean it sincerely--but I can't help but notice you said that they "know they only have a few with acetoin..." If they knew that, I wish they would instruct their customer service personnel to answer direct questions from potential customers with the truth! This sort of thing--any vendor's unwillingness to be frank and open about the information they do have--is what gets a bee in my bonnet.
I believe they are good people. I believe many (if not most) small-ish juice companies got into doing what they do for the same reasons most of us stopped smoking and started vaping. I also believe that at some level, what kind of people they are and their best intentions are all beside the point.
I think I am so sensitive to this issue in part because for nearly 30 years, through illness, financial exigency--come what may--I found a way to PAY cigarette companies to lie to me (or at least conceal information as well as their big bucks would allow) and to poison me. I am tired of feeling like a slave and tired of having no recourse, tired of being lied to. So my patience is a little thin.
On the other hand, I think it's actually really important that the "vaping community" include vendors--that there not be a huge division over this kind of stuff. Or is that the same hand? Yes, I think that's part of my first point: when juice vendors dance around the truth or outright lie because they feel they are covering their asses, they misunderstand the real situation, which is: we are all in the same boat.
Ok, well.. derp. So much for "no big thing".
i have to agree with you there too..
there has bee a few mix ups, and other weird things.. they are only a year old.. and working on getting even better..
i am not making excuses for the company.. but i am trying to be understanding..
i went and took their open tour.. they are only 1 of 3 that will let the general public come visit..
a very casual company, laid back.. and trying to be very open..
even with the mistakes that have happened..
and hearing what others have been saying for the last few weeks, since i brought them here to vu..
i am attempting to keep an open mind and give them some time.
i am going to be heading up to Spartentburg the first week of next month for another tour..
this time i hope i can get some vids.. and hang out for a bit..
i am trying to keep up with questions and what not, because i have an interest as well..
i want clean alternatives.. and they appear to be listening..
they are working on some changes, but right now i can not say what it is, as i dont know most..
Smoky,
I was excited when I heard they had come out with DIY flavorings and were having that sale because they advertised as D & AP free & I was just ordering my first DIY supplies. They also claimed they were the only ones in "the industry" to provide that absence, which I am pretty sure is not the case (FA?) but I thought, "eh-- it's marketing. no harm no foul--whatever".
Also, I was interested because my first-ever purchase of e-liquid (only six months ago!) was from them--through a B&M in Watertown, MA which sold only NicVape, Firebrand, and NicQuid. The store owners said they carried only these juices because each of the three companies had a certified ... "clean room", I believe it was. Just curious--did they have you do any special procedures, like wearing a mask or a jumpsuit, when you toured their facility?
I got something called American Tobacco--this was back when I thought I was going to be vaping tobacco flavors pretty much exclusively, har!--and their banana flavor. i thought both of them were great. I only later learned how unusual it is to come across a banana flavored juice that actually tastes like fruit, and not that stuff I use to spray on my bike chain. So, I was/am holding out some hope for them as well. If you think of it, please ask them to get going on releasing that banana flavor!
I was excited when I heard they had come out with DIY flavorings and were having that sale because they advertised as D & AP free & I was just ordering my first DIY supplies. They also claimed they were the only ones in "the industry" to provide that absence, which I am pretty sure is not the case (FA?) but I thought, "eh-- it's marketing. no harm no foul--whatever".
Also, I was interested because my first-ever purchase of e-liquid (only six months ago!) was from them--through a B&M in Watertown, MA which sold only NicVape, Firebrand, and NicQuid. The store owners said they carried only these juices because each of the three companies had a certified ... "clean room", I believe it was. Just curious--did they have you do any special procedures, like wearing a mask or a jumpsuit, when you toured their facility?
I got something called American Tobacco--this was back when I thought I was going to be vaping tobacco flavors pretty much exclusively, har!--and their banana flavor. i thought both of them were great. I only later learned how unusual it is to come across a banana flavored juice that actually tastes like fruit, and not that stuff I use to spray on my bike chain. So, I was/am holding out some hope for them as well. If you think of it, please ask them to get going on releasing that banana flavor!
Smoky,
I was excited when I heard they had come out with DIY flavorings and were having that sale because they advertised as D & AP free & I was just ordering my first DIY supplies. They also claimed they were the only ones in "the industry" to provide that absence, which I am pretty sure is not the case (FA?) but I thought, "eh-- it's marketing. no harm no foul--whatever".
Also, I was interested because my first-ever purchase of e-liquid (only six months ago!) was from them--through a B&M in Watertown, MA which sold only NicVape, Firebrand, and NicQuid. The store owners said they carried only these juices because each of the three companies had a certified ... "clean room", I believe it was. Just curious--did they have you do any special procedures, like wearing a mask or a jumpsuit, when you toured their facility?
I got something called American Tobacco--this was back when I thought I was going to be vaping tobacco flavors pretty much exclusively, har!--and their banana flavor. i thought both of them were great. I only later learned how unusual it is to come across a banana flavored juice that actually tastes like fruit, and not that stuff I use to spray on my bike chain. So, I was/am holding out some hope for them as well. If you think of it, please ask them to get going on releasing that banana flavor!
ahhh!!! if you notice.. if you have purchased.. there is a batch # on the bottle..
go to their website and look for nictrace.. it will give you all info on:
their pg/vg the actual juice and!! the flavoring.. all from http://enthalpy.com/
they test each batch, and if it does not pass, they incinerate it.. no lie, i saw the equipment for that..
every bottle i have, and i do have all of their flavors.. i can give all batch #'s out for what i have.. they pass clear and clean.
they give the batch #'s out on the bottles from purchase.. that way i can not say it was a different batch and try and pull something over..
it keeps them and me safe.
and i like that. they have a clean room i will always and forever drool over. i have to brag, it is the largest room in the entire building..
i did not go in it my first trip, however, next time, i will get suited up and have them snap a pic.
haha!! but they let me peep thru the door..i could not cross the threshold. the equipment in there.. holly cow!! i want to play so bad!!
they also showed me their nic cut room.. and that really is how they started out, by Rich cutting and selling diluted nic..
family run, his mother was the first employee and they treat each other like friends and family..
so i guess that is where the odd customer service plays in.. maybe??
banana!! oh yes, i will ask, because i do not have that flavor either.. dang it!! not even prototype.
it was fun, but like i said, next time.. for sure.. i will be spending more time there..
this is what i am currently playing with.. can write out the batch numbers in a bit..
will take some time, but that way, every one can look them up..
BG1-Bubble Gum Flavor
Butterscotch Flavor
Carolina Tobacco Flavor
Clementine Flavor
Cream Flavor
Crème De Menthe Flavor
Dark Raz Flavor
Fine Cuban Tobacco Flavor
French Vanilla Flavor
Gourmet Cinnamon Flavor
Grape Flavor
Green Apple Flavor
Lime Flavor
Milk Flavor
Orange Flavor
Peppermint Flavor
Raspberry Flavor
Real Honey Flavor
Real Watermelon Flavor
Red Apple Flavor
Ripe Strawberry Flavor
Root Beer Flavor
Spearmint Flavor
Strawberry Flavor
Subtle Cinnamon Flavor
Sweet Tobacco Flavor
Turkish Tobacco Flavor
Vanilla Flavor
protoypes
cherry clove flavor
kentucky tobacco flavor
tobacco 192
additive
cool
will take some time, but that way, every one can look them up..
BG1-Bubble Gum Flavor
Butterscotch Flavor
Carolina Tobacco Flavor
Clementine Flavor
Cream Flavor
Crème De Menthe Flavor
Dark Raz Flavor
Fine Cuban Tobacco Flavor
French Vanilla Flavor
Gourmet Cinnamon Flavor
Grape Flavor
Green Apple Flavor
Lime Flavor
Milk Flavor
Orange Flavor
Peppermint Flavor
Raspberry Flavor
Real Honey Flavor
Real Watermelon Flavor
Red Apple Flavor
Ripe Strawberry Flavor
Root Beer Flavor
Spearmint Flavor
Strawberry Flavor
Subtle Cinnamon Flavor
Sweet Tobacco Flavor
Turkish Tobacco Flavor
Vanilla Flavor
protoypes
cherry clove flavor
kentucky tobacco flavor
tobacco 192
additive
cool
I also like the idea of batch #s which give you access to batch specific tests.
I have a bottle of American Tobacco, batch# 1407059E, but when I type it in here:
http://www.nicvape.com/Nictrace
it tells me there is no info associated with that criterion. Could I be in the wrong place? Do you have a link?
I have a bottle of American Tobacco, batch# 1407059E, but when I type it in here:
http://www.nicvape.com/Nictrace
it tells me there is no info associated with that criterion. Could I be in the wrong place? Do you have a link?
hmm make sure you are putting the numbers in right.. capitalize what needs to be..
here is one for french vanilla SP141006
and one for butterscotch SP0151406028
here is one for french vanilla SP141006
and one for butterscotch SP0151406028
i am having an issue with my pc.. bb in 5 min.. rebooting and cleaning it.. grr..
Linc Williams
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lirruping - NicVape's Nictrace system was upgraded to track the e-liquid we created after October 1st 2014. Prior to that our raw flavoring (e-flavors), PG, VG and Nicotine was available. The american tobacco bottle you have was made prior to October 2014 so there will be no information in the NicTrace System
Works every time!
Linc Williams
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Also I apologize for the poor explanation from our customer service team - I will work with them next week to make sure they are better at articulating the information.
thanks Linc.. I appreciate you popping on this late..
pc issues grr.. and yes i thumped it to get it back on
pc issues grr.. and yes i thumped it to get it back on
Smoky Blue: "they test each batch, and if it does not pass, they incinerate it.. no lie, i saw the equipment for that.."
aw man... you can tell I'm not a DIY'er yet, because the prospect of this makes me cringe involuntarily. Soon I will be surrounded by liters of juice and I won't be all like.. "My Precious!" about it. It reminds me of how I feel when McDonalds throws out the fries etc that have been sitting under the light too long instead of giving them to .... someone (ok, to ME). For all my pissing and moaning about the details (because I can) I feel pretty sure I'd be better off vaping diacetyl than smoking cigarettes.
aw man... you can tell I'm not a DIY'er yet, because the prospect of this makes me cringe involuntarily. Soon I will be surrounded by liters of juice and I won't be all like.. "My Precious!" about it. It reminds me of how I feel when McDonalds throws out the fries etc that have been sitting under the light too long instead of giving them to .... someone (ok, to ME). For all my pissing and moaning about the details (because I can) I feel pretty sure I'd be better off vaping diacetyl than smoking cigarettes.
aw man... you can tell I'm not a DIY'er yet, because the prospect of this makes me cringe involuntarily. Soon I will be surrounded by liters of juice and I won't be all like.. "My Precious!" about it. It reminds me of how I feel when McDonalds throws out the fries etc that have been sitting under the light too long instead of giving them to .... someone (ok, to ME). For all my pissing and moaning about the details (because I can) I feel pretty sure I'd be better off vaping diacetyl than smoking cigarettes.[/QUOTE]
lmao.. just as long as you keep things safe, you will be just fine
you have to make sure you are using capitols and right numbers..
i flubbed a few times too..
here are the files..
i flubbed a few times too..
here are the files..
tick22
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lirruping, I can relate, I love bag fries and in fact one place made a habit of making sure she tossed some fries in my bag beside the ones ordered. But I am where you fear to be. New, like real new DIYer, with juice surrounding me, softly whispering, try me first, oh, don't put me with that one, I like the other one and then, I find I talk back to them and then and then.....
RocketPuppy
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One of the files you are including is from March with a blacked out manufacturer. I'm assuming that is from their old line.you have to make sure you are using capitols and right numbers..
i flubbed a few times too..
here are the files..
RocketPuppy
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@lirruping - I really appreciate the information you have shared. Thank you
An enormous thanks to all who have put this here for us. I believe every vapor should hold nothing but the highest standards with what is in our liuids. Those that say "it still better then smoking" and let it go at that are doing more harm to this industry then thay think. If we all hold nothing but the highest standards we can evolve to ths being a healthy option forall without have to question every single buy we make. Thanks you all again
Artemis, thanks for posting that link to the Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl Free Juice Vendors Facebook Page.
When I clicked it, I noticed there was a post there, front & center, by Russ Wishtart (the host of the above-mentioned show w/ Dr. Farsalinos) so that answers my request for a way to contact him about possibly finding a transcript of the interview--thank you again! The show is just so long, and somewhat difficult to understand, so I think a transcript would come in handy for those of us who might not have time to get through it but would still like access to the content. If I find it, I'll stick a link in here.
Edit: I asked the interviewer about this and he knows of no transcript. It's a long (audio) show, but was worthwhile for me because Dr. Farsalinos puts some complicated issues into everyday language.
When I clicked it, I noticed there was a post there, front & center, by Russ Wishtart (the host of the above-mentioned show w/ Dr. Farsalinos) so that answers my request for a way to contact him about possibly finding a transcript of the interview--thank you again! The show is just so long, and somewhat difficult to understand, so I think a transcript would come in handy for those of us who might not have time to get through it but would still like access to the content. If I find it, I'll stick a link in here.
Edit: I asked the interviewer about this and he knows of no transcript. It's a long (audio) show, but was worthwhile for me because Dr. Farsalinos puts some complicated issues into everyday language.
Last edited:
RocketPuppy
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You rock @lirruping
Aw..shucks. No, you!
@RocketPuppy, I was going to send you a message as a follow-up to your OP--the very useful evolving vendor list & abbreviations, etc., but I will post the question here instead, since it's somewhat related to the discussion. (If anyone knows where it might be better placed, please let me know).
I was on the AEMSA site and came across this:
"The e-liquid flavor supply chain is complex. Most U.S. e-liquid manufactures buy flavors components from the same, industry standard 10 companies (“End Flavor Suppliers”). But there are various companies within the supply chain moving flavor products (e.g., wholesaler to wholesaler) between the source manufacturer and the End Flavor Supplier. Some of these companies may be “compounders” who combine flavors, after source manufacture, to create new or combined/compounded flavors. When an End Flavor Supplier claims that its products are diacetyl- and/or acetyl propionyl-“free,” they may be relying on claims from the source manufacturer, and may not be aware of possible mid-supply-chain “compounding”.
I am not particularly in-the-know about this stuff, but I wasn't even aware there was a supply-chain that existed pre-"end flavor supplier"--let alone that it was so opaque, possibly even to the EFSs themselves. I find this disconcerting. I guess I was imagining that most of these companies--or the main ones at least--were producing their flavors in-house, using relatively basic and regular (in the sense of reliably the same) chemical components bought from laboratory supply outfits.
The AEMSA page goes on to talk about how critical it is that end product (e-liquids) be tested by vendors. This seems sensible to me, but I see no discussion yet about investigating in the other direction, i.e., looking back up the "flavor supply chain". Even as an e-liquid consumer (and especially as an almost-DIY'er) I am interested in learning more about this--pinning down the flavor supply chain--and I would think it would be something juice vendors would definitely want to pursue for all kinds of reasons. If this chain could be made fully transparent and reliably documented, would the need for continuous end-product testing (that is currently so bogging down the industry) be greatly diminished?
My questions run like this: where to begin? Is anyone working on the project of making the flavor supply chain less shadowy and vague? How can I find out more? (I guess I need to make an inquiry to AEMSA about it to start with, now that I think of it.)
Do others think it an important direction for the industry broadly to work in? Or is it just easier (and safer) to test the end result in every single case? The latter seems like it would be cost-prohibitive for most juice companies out there, whereas investigating the supply chain pre-End Flavor Supplier--while probably not quickly or easily accomplished--costs man-hours rather than money. And any information that is uncovered can be of potential use to the entire community, rather than a single company.
Despite possible appearances to the contrary, I don't want to hijack this thread, so if it feels off-topic AND is a topic of interest to more than just myself, maybe it should go elsewhere. All of this is me just thinking out-loud...so to speak...err, type. You know what I mean. Off to bed with me!
RocketPuppy
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It's not off topic at all, and it's informative. I know I won't be able to answer them all, so hopefully there are others who can add information.
Food concentrates are very similar to the perfume industry. The components are made at only a few sources, and companies purchase these base fragrances to create their particular blends.
Once a company, like TFA or FW, purchases the base flavors, they do the same as the perfumeries and create their own blends, and these blends become proprietary. After looking into some of the larger flavor suppliers, it was surprising that they were not technically making their flavors from scratch. I didn't understand since so many of their labs and clean rooms were gigantic, but creating these proprietary blends is quite a to-do
In regards to testing, before vapers started raising holy hell, most distributors claimed their products were Diketone free on their supplier's say so. Some companies are now testing their flavors after they've been created since the combination of different compounds can have such different results than when tested individually.
Food concentrates are very similar to the perfume industry. The components are made at only a few sources, and companies purchase these base fragrances to create their particular blends.
Once a company, like TFA or FW, purchases the base flavors, they do the same as the perfumeries and create their own blends, and these blends become proprietary. After looking into some of the larger flavor suppliers, it was surprising that they were not technically making their flavors from scratch. I didn't understand since so many of their labs and clean rooms were gigantic, but creating these proprietary blends is quite a to-do
In regards to testing, before vapers started raising holy hell, most distributors claimed their products were Diketone free on their supplier's say so. Some companies are now testing their flavors after they've been created since the combination of different compounds can have such different results than when tested individually.
Good questions, @lirruping.. Here is one of mine.. Should a vendor be required to "out" their source? Would that hurt or help said vendor? If vendor is doing testing on their different creations, with proof of it? Where does it stop and i agree, how far up the chain do you say this is enough, or more needed.. ??
Lots of questions..
here is yet another question.. if a vendor makes their own creations, either by cutting or mixing.. should they also own the lab in which it is tested?
how much trust can we put into a vendor like that? what kind of influences would a vendor have, if they owned said lab..
how much trust can we put into a vendor like that? what kind of influences would a vendor have, if they owned said lab..
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so I have been talking to the guys at flavor art and it looks like they are working on releasing info at the first of the year. Im going to share this one email I have from them. does it answer anyones questions, kinda sorta but not really.
I bet they release more info than anyone has ever. which is already true as far as the extent of testing they have done already. just thought Id share what I have found out if anyone has not contacted flavor art themselves.
Hello william
Thanks for contacting us.
In the light of proactive quality, as you know, we have removed diacetyl (never used acetyl propionyl) in vape formula since long time ago, and we do point out in our website, which flavors contains it and suggest avoiding use them for vape applications.
To know which flavors contains it is simple.
Just run a query like this
http://flavourartexpress.biz/index....erformed=Y&q=diacetyl&dispatch=search.results
In addition, we offer a lot of materials on our clearstream website here
http://clearstream.flavourart.it/site/?lang=en
where we focus on harm reduction.
I do understand however that people look for simpler info, but even if we would provide analytical certificates, i wonder how many can understand a GC graph.
We are working hard now to settle a proper group of information and translate these in a manner all users can understand.
Many news are planned for new year, so i hope you can wait a little to allow us to complete the marketing material we are preparing about.
Cordiali saluti/Best regards,
Massimiliano
Sincerely,
FlavourArt
http://www.flavourartexpress.biz
I bet they release more info than anyone has ever. which is already true as far as the extent of testing they have done already. just thought Id share what I have found out if anyone has not contacted flavor art themselves.
Hello william
Thanks for contacting us.
In the light of proactive quality, as you know, we have removed diacetyl (never used acetyl propionyl) in vape formula since long time ago, and we do point out in our website, which flavors contains it and suggest avoiding use them for vape applications.
To know which flavors contains it is simple.
Just run a query like this
http://flavourartexpress.biz/index....erformed=Y&q=diacetyl&dispatch=search.results
In addition, we offer a lot of materials on our clearstream website here
http://clearstream.flavourart.it/site/?lang=en
where we focus on harm reduction.
I do understand however that people look for simpler info, but even if we would provide analytical certificates, i wonder how many can understand a GC graph.
We are working hard now to settle a proper group of information and translate these in a manner all users can understand.
Many news are planned for new year, so i hope you can wait a little to allow us to complete the marketing material we are preparing about.
Cordiali saluti/Best regards,
Massimiliano
Sincerely,
FlavourArt
http://www.flavourartexpress.biz
wllmc, that is where i got my list of info on those flavors.. yeps.. had it before you got your letter..
not once does he mention acetoin. or that he owns the lab too. influences and whispers..
not once does he mention acetoin. or that he owns the lab too. influences and whispers..
Linc Williams
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Smokey Blue and wllmc - FA and Max who owns it is a very responsible manufacturer - i have spent time with him at his factory outside of Milan Italy. FA is one of the few flavor providers that is a provider and a root manufacturer. So I believe him when he says he is working on finding a way to display the test results
@lirruping - i will try and find the article i wrote for vapor digest and post the section on flavoring providers and post it next
Linc
@lirruping - i will try and find the article i wrote for vapor digest and post the section on flavoring providers and post it next
Linc
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this is an exert from an article I wrote for vapor digest last month - http://vapordigest.com/vapor-digest-issue-3/ pg 32
Why independent testing?
The flavoring the vaping industry was created on where always and still are created for food manufacturing. In the food-manufacturing world there are different standards than what we need for the vaping industry. For example any product that has less than 1% Diacetyl can be labeled as “Diacetyl Free”. To put that in perspective 1% is 1000 ug/ml or 200 times greater that the levels that are in my opinion acceptable for our vaping products.
The other reason for independent testing is the nature of the food flavoring industry itself. Generally there are two types of providers:
1- Root manufactures – This provider is the actual manufacturer of the flavoring ingredients. They create flavors for major food manufacturing operations such as coca cola and general mills. They focus on major mass manufacturing. There is another important fact…. Most do not want anything to do with the vaping industry. Root manufactures are generally very protective of the processes and ingredients that are used to create their products, bind purchasers to very strict Non-Disclosure Agreements and they do not test to levels that are needed for this industry. They view it as an immature and risky industry.
2 – Compounders – They provider supply the majority of our industry. A compounder purchases root material and mixes it to create the products the industry uses. This presents some challenges for the compounders in the fact they often do not know exactly what is in the ingredients they use and that to insure that they meet the DA/AP limits this industry needs outside 3rd party testing is needed to verify the levels. This often does not happen.
Inconsistency Batch to Batch
As Manufactures we face another issue with traditional flavoring providers as illustrated by what NicVape underwent to address the DA/AP issue:
NicVape was alerted in January 2014 that some of the flavorings NicVape used could potentially contain diacetyl despite the supplier indications. In response, NicVape began to test every flavoring used in production. We performed this testing in January of 2014. We began testing our root flavorings in the order of most likely to contain diacetyl or acetyl propionyl to least likely. Diacetyl and acetyl propionyl was detected in 38 of 69 flavors at levels ranging from non-detected (ND) to 6423 µg/ml. Those items where immediately discontinued.
We approached our flavoring providers and asked them to remove diacetyl and acetyl propionyl from their products. If the flavoring manufacturers were not amenable to the change, NicVape found new manufacturers that would adhere to NicVape and AMESA diacetyl standards.
Subsequent to approaching our providers and in some cases, finding new ones, NicVape again tested all of our flavorings for diacetyl and acetyl propionyl in March 2014. Diacetyl and acetyl propionyl was detected in 4 flavorings. To complicate the issue we found that diacetyl or acetyl propionyl in a flavoring could vary from batch to batch, indicating that the supply chain as we knew it was unreliable.
This meant as a manufacturer we would have to test each and every batch of flavoring that we purchased, in of itself this is an obtainable process, but what happens when it fails the test? The manufacture would most likely be stuck with unusable product! As a manufacture this poses many issues to items like production cost and production times.
end exert
Why independent testing?
The flavoring the vaping industry was created on where always and still are created for food manufacturing. In the food-manufacturing world there are different standards than what we need for the vaping industry. For example any product that has less than 1% Diacetyl can be labeled as “Diacetyl Free”. To put that in perspective 1% is 1000 ug/ml or 200 times greater that the levels that are in my opinion acceptable for our vaping products.
The other reason for independent testing is the nature of the food flavoring industry itself. Generally there are two types of providers:
1- Root manufactures – This provider is the actual manufacturer of the flavoring ingredients. They create flavors for major food manufacturing operations such as coca cola and general mills. They focus on major mass manufacturing. There is another important fact…. Most do not want anything to do with the vaping industry. Root manufactures are generally very protective of the processes and ingredients that are used to create their products, bind purchasers to very strict Non-Disclosure Agreements and they do not test to levels that are needed for this industry. They view it as an immature and risky industry.
2 – Compounders – They provider supply the majority of our industry. A compounder purchases root material and mixes it to create the products the industry uses. This presents some challenges for the compounders in the fact they often do not know exactly what is in the ingredients they use and that to insure that they meet the DA/AP limits this industry needs outside 3rd party testing is needed to verify the levels. This often does not happen.
Inconsistency Batch to Batch
As Manufactures we face another issue with traditional flavoring providers as illustrated by what NicVape underwent to address the DA/AP issue:
NicVape was alerted in January 2014 that some of the flavorings NicVape used could potentially contain diacetyl despite the supplier indications. In response, NicVape began to test every flavoring used in production. We performed this testing in January of 2014. We began testing our root flavorings in the order of most likely to contain diacetyl or acetyl propionyl to least likely. Diacetyl and acetyl propionyl was detected in 38 of 69 flavors at levels ranging from non-detected (ND) to 6423 µg/ml. Those items where immediately discontinued.
We approached our flavoring providers and asked them to remove diacetyl and acetyl propionyl from their products. If the flavoring manufacturers were not amenable to the change, NicVape found new manufacturers that would adhere to NicVape and AMESA diacetyl standards.
Subsequent to approaching our providers and in some cases, finding new ones, NicVape again tested all of our flavorings for diacetyl and acetyl propionyl in March 2014. Diacetyl and acetyl propionyl was detected in 4 flavorings. To complicate the issue we found that diacetyl or acetyl propionyl in a flavoring could vary from batch to batch, indicating that the supply chain as we knew it was unreliable.
This meant as a manufacturer we would have to test each and every batch of flavoring that we purchased, in of itself this is an obtainable process, but what happens when it fails the test? The manufacture would most likely be stuck with unusable product! As a manufacture this poses many issues to items like production cost and production times.
end exert
Linc Williams
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To note - some manufacturers are under strict NDA's that prevent them from revealing the true root manufacturer of a flavoring.Good questions, @lirruping.. Here is one of mine.. Should a vendor be required to "out" their source? Would that hurt or help said vendor? If vendor is doing testing on their different creations, with proof of it? Where does it stop and i agree, how far up the chain do you say this is enough, or more needed.. ??
Lots of questions..
Linc Williams
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I am currently on the board of director of AEMSA - if you would like to discuss it i would be more than happy to have a call with you. You can PM and we can coordinate it
Linc
Thanks Linc.. that was a very good read..
and by the way.. waiting is worth it..
when you care enough about something, it will show. I do have to say with the testing of each batch.. it makes more sense.. especially when things can happen from batch to batch.. price and time wise, i would expect it to take a bit long.. more expensive.. but it all depends on who you are mixing it for.. yourself, friends and loved ones, or just running a business.. either which way.. since taste is subject, testing shouldnt be..
i hope you all keep up the good work.. and in no means am i accusing anyone of anything.. but it is good to think about things and the choices we have for mixing.
and by the way.. waiting is worth it..
when you care enough about something, it will show. I do have to say with the testing of each batch.. it makes more sense.. especially when things can happen from batch to batch.. price and time wise, i would expect it to take a bit long.. more expensive.. but it all depends on who you are mixing it for.. yourself, friends and loved ones, or just running a business.. either which way.. since taste is subject, testing shouldnt be..
i hope you all keep up the good work.. and in no means am i accusing anyone of anything.. but it is good to think about things and the choices we have for mixing.
RocketPuppy
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@lirruping Arrggg...aemsa! I will have more time to explain after this week once finals and grading have been completed, but I personally have hesitance in putting faith in an organization whose membership is unaffordable for many, even for those who are focused on customers' safety and health.
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@RocketPuppy I would be more than happy to discuss it with you when you have time
RocketPuppy
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@Linc Williams - One thing that really concerns me is that consumers are led to believe that the AEMSA seal certifies that a member's liquid is safe and free from D/A/AP, but this isn't the case. I only see that members are given information on how/where to test and are encouraged to do so. What is the purpose of certifying that a company meets high standards when they're not mandatory?
Just getting back to this thread and reading over new contributions from Rocket Puppy, Linc, willmc and Smoky. The complexity of these topics combined with my noobishness has got my head really spinning now.
Linc: thank you for the excerpt from your article about diacetyl as well as the link to Vapor Digest and your generous offer to speak with me to discuss flavor supply chain issues. I hope I can take you up on that soon when I feel I have a better grasp on the "lot of questions" Smoky referred to so I can take full advantage of the opportunity & not waste your time with unfocused questions.
Meanwhile, it is terrific that everyone here, too, can benefit, from your knowledge & experience in the industry. I'm really happy you have jumped in and are willing to share what you know.
A couple of clarifying questions re your article & some comments:
"...any product that has less than 1% Diacetyl can be labeled as “Diacetyl Free”. "
>You're talking about food additive regulations here, right?
>Aren't there also relatively new diacetyl inhalation regs developed by National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH)--and created in response to the popcorn lung air-in-the-workplace exposure issue? From what I can recall of the Russ Wishtart interview with Dr. Farsalinos, he indicates that even these inhalation exposure regs are hard to translate to vaping safety since they are based on--well, not vaping, but on particles in the air over a period of time of normal breathing in a diacetyl contaminated work environment. (Reminds me of Sifl & Olly's chicken-flavored air-conditioning..in case anyone is old enough to remember that
) "To put that in perspective 1% is 1000 ug/ml or 200 times greater that the levels that are in my opinion acceptable for our vaping products."
> Your opinion of acceptable levels for liquids is based on what? Current AEMSA standards and/or a particular body of research? Can you say a little about how you got to your understanding of acceptable levels for your vaping products? And by "our vaping products" (in the article) do you mean NicVape's liquids or "our vaping products" as in "what we should be aiming for as a community/industry?"
"Root manufactures are generally very protective of the processes and ingredients that are used to create their products, bind purchasers to very strict Non-Disclosure Agreements and they do not test to levels that are needed for this industry. They view it as an immature and risky industry. "
> Well, that sucks. If all that NDA and secrecy stuff proves a non-negotiable, insurmountable impediment to the possibility of "End Flavor Suppliers" (Such as TFA, FW, LA, CAP, etc) ever knowing for sure what they are getting, it seems like the whole vaping flavor supply chain might be better off with a complete overhaul--that is, becoming its own thing entirely, leaving "Root Manufacturers" behind. Maybe that sounds naive, but why, really, do the End Flavor Suppliers need these Root Manufacturer's proprietary compounds to make their own proprietary compounds? (Oh right, so they can sell them to juice makers who can re-compound them into their OWN proprietary compounds. And nobody at any level of the chain knows wtf is in this stuff?!)
The more I think about it, the more I see why companies want to do verifiable testing of every single batch of end product. But the big problem with that idea, as I mentioned before, is that hardly anybody can afford it. I'm not sure how many members AEMSA has, but I bet you a nickel that at the rates AEMSA's charging, it's a miniscule fraction of the juicemaker industry as it currently stands.
Is it conceivable that EFSs could start more "from scratch"--as Rocket Puppy put it in a recent post--buying non-protected/patented, regularized ingredients, like flavor molecules, from laboratory supply houses and doing in-house flavor creation specifically for inhalation purposes? It seems like FlavourArt may be actually doing this, and thanks to wllmc's post, above, we have reason to believe we may find out more specifically about this in January.
Vaping may well be an immature and risky industry, but IMO it also has the potential to be as big an industry as cigarettes ever were--assuming the health issues can eventually be adequately addressed. Not that it's at all clear what "adequately addressed" would even mean in this politically charged climate, in this crass culture where GMOs and NutraSweet and the whole FDA approved horrorshow is generally recognized as safe and imbibed by most of us all the time, knowingly or not, with or without our permission.
You mentioned two stages of flavor supply chain in your article: Root Suppliers (I'm thinking from the way you describe them of massive faceless corporations, which we might know only through brand contact with their jillions of subsidiaries?) and what you called "Compounders", presumably referring to what AEMSA was calling "End Flavor Suppliers." Who are these extra mysterious "mid-supply-chain compounders" between the Root and the End Flavor Suppliers/Compounders?
Again, from the AEMSA site: http://www.aemsa.org/aemsa-recommends-flavor-testing/
"....there are various companies within the supply chain moving flavor products (e.g., wholesaler to wholesaler) between the source manufacturer and the End Flavor Supplier. Some of these companies may be “compounders” who combine flavors, after source manufacture, to create new or combined/compounded flavors. When an End Flavor Supplier claims that its products are diacetyl- and/or acetyl propionyl-“free,” they may be relying on claims from the source manufacturer, and may not be aware of possible mid-supply-chain “compounding”."
> Possibly complicating things even further are brands like "ellas flavors" (which people say is CAP, rebottled) or "Signature" (which people say is TFA rebranded?)--or are they too mid-chain compounders? What madness is this? lol.
Well, I am sorry this got so long. I don't expect you to spend the rest of your life trying to address this.. whatever you can offer here will be appreciated. I do think it's important to use public space to at least air these kinds of questions, even if they don't get answered right away...even if they are middle-of-the-night ravings from some random noob on an internet forum
Smoke me a kipper I'll be back for breakfast!
@Linc Williams, btw, the first link in your Vape Digest article--the one that's supposed to go to "Independent Toxicologist R. Patrick Rainey's study on the use of diacetyl and acetyl propionyl in e-liquid--this one here:
https://drive.google.com/fle/d/0B0JrO25MOsG5VjBBd0d4SlVNOXM/edit?usp=sharing
is broken. If you have a working link could you sling it up here when you get a chance?
https://drive.google.com/fle/d/0B0JrO25MOsG5VjBBd0d4SlVNOXM/edit?usp=sharing
is broken. If you have a working link could you sling it up here when you get a chance?
i can say Linc is good at explaining things.. i have asked him a few of mine and think I understand a few bits..
but dont ask me to be able to say it all back.. i just do not post as well as a few of you guys.. and i think i am taken wrong at times..Linc Williams
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Linc Williams
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Yes food manufacturing regulations
Linc Williams
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J
>Aren't there also relatively new diacetyl inhalation regs developed by National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH)--and created in response to the popcorn lung air-in-the-workplace exposure issue? From what I can recall of the Russ Wishtart interview with Dr. Farsalinos, he indicates that even these inhalation exposure regs are hard to translate to vaping safety since they are based on--well, not vaping, but on particles in the air over a period of time of normal breathing in a diacetyl contaminated work environment. (Reminds me of Sifl & Olly's chicken-flavored air-conditioning..in case anyone is old enough to remember that
"To put that in perspective 1% is 1000 ug/ml or 200 times greater that the levels that are in my opinion acceptable for our vaping products."
> Your opinion of acceptable levels for liquids is based on what? Current AEMSA standards and/or a particular body of research? Can you say a little about how you got to your understanding of acceptable levels for your vaping products? And by "our vaping products" (in the article) do you mean NicVape's liquids or "our vaping products" as in "what we should be aiming for as a community/industry?"
.
Linc Williams
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">Aren't there also relatively new diacetyl inhalation regs developed by National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH)--and created in response to the popcorn lung air-in-the-workplace exposure issue? From what I can recall of the Russ Wishtart interview with Dr. Farsalinos, he indicates that even these inhalation exposure regs are hard to translate to vaping safety since they are based on--well, not vaping, but on particles in the air over a period of time of normal breathing in a diacetyl contaminated work environment. (Reminds me of Sifl & Olly's chicken-flavored air-conditioning..in case anyone is old enough to remember that ) "
*****NIOSH - DA REL is a recommendation not a regulation - it has never been finalized but is basically the standard used in the food manufacturing industry
"To put that in perspective 1% is 1000 ug/ml or 200 times greater that the levels that are in my opinion acceptable for our vaping products."
> Your opinion of acceptable levels for liquids is based on what? Current AEMSA standards and/or a particular body of research? Can you say a little about how you got to your understanding of acceptable levels for your vaping products? And by "our vaping products" (in the article) do you mean NicVape's liquids or "our vaping products" as in "what we should be aiming for as a community/industry?"
***** This is my opinion based on my work with multiple toxicologists and chemists and doctors over the last year. It is based on the average consumption of 8ml of eliquid a day as compared to NIOSh exposure recommendations. The absolute best is ZERO diacetlyl (not detected)
I will try to answer more questions - all great stuff @llrruping
) "*****NIOSH - DA REL is a recommendation not a regulation - it has never been finalized but is basically the standard used in the food manufacturing industry
"To put that in perspective 1% is 1000 ug/ml or 200 times greater that the levels that are in my opinion acceptable for our vaping products."
> Your opinion of acceptable levels for liquids is based on what? Current AEMSA standards and/or a particular body of research? Can you say a little about how you got to your understanding of acceptable levels for your vaping products? And by "our vaping products" (in the article) do you mean NicVape's liquids or "our vaping products" as in "what we should be aiming for as a community/industry?"
***** This is my opinion based on my work with multiple toxicologists and chemists and doctors over the last year. It is based on the average consumption of 8ml of eliquid a day as compared to NIOSh exposure recommendations. The absolute best is ZERO diacetlyl (not detected)
I will try to answer more questions - all great stuff @llrruping