Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl, and Acetoin in Flavorings

[Linc Williams]

"> Well, that sucks. If all that NDA and secrecy stuff proves a non-negotiable, insurmountable impediment to the possibility of "End Flavor Suppliers" (Such as TFA, FW, LA, CAP, etc) ever knowing for sure what they are getting, it seems like the whole vaping flavor supply chain might be better off with a complete overhaul--that is, becoming its own thing entirely, leaving "Root Manufacturers" behind. Maybe that sounds naive, but why, really, do the End Flavor Suppliers need these Root Manufacturer's proprietary compounds to make their own proprietary compounds? (Oh right, so they can sell them to juice makers who can re-compound them into their OWN proprietary compounds. And nobody at any level of the chain knows wtf is in this stuff?!) "


Yes the vaping industry needs its own supply chain where the engineering starts with vaping/inhalation as the goal not ingestion. There are several issues that make this a long term challenge.

1 - cost - root manufacturing is very expensive - it is assembling compounds/ molecules at the molecular level - the equipment involved is in the millions of $ for a small lab. Large labs can not combine food and inhalation labs so even the bigger ones means a large investment to do it.

2 - experience - A root manufacturer employees master certified flavorist - to be a flavorist one goes to school for nearly 10 years and then has 5+ years as an apprentice before becoming a Flavorist. At NicVape we work with 2 master flavorists to design our flavor concentrates. NOTE - Max from Flavor Art (owner) is a master flavorist.

3 - insurance/ liability - of the top 10 root manufactures in the world only 1 creates flavors for inhalation. The reason is that their industry as a whole abandoned the cigarette industry years ago and the insurance requirements for them to do it are very burdensome. Mid size and small root flavor manufacturers have filled this hole as providers. Over the last year we have seen several of these providers stop selling to the industry because of insurance issues.

 

[NGAHaze]

Smoke me a kipper I'll be back for breakfast!

I don't think those things are legal here in the States ...

 

[Linc Williams]

"You mentioned two stages of flavor supply chain in your article: Root Suppliers (I'm thinking from the way you describe them of massive faceless corporations, which we might know only through brand contact with their jillions of subsidiaries?) and what you called "Compounders", presumably referring to what AEMSA was calling "End Flavor Suppliers." Who are these extra mysterious "mid-supply-chain compounders" between the Root and the End Flavor Suppliers/Compounders? "

the root top 10 are easy to define - http://www.leffingwell.com/top_10.htm

the rest are not so easy - it is very hard to tell if a company is a compounder or a redistributor (or both)

FEMA (the flavoring industry trade organization) lists over 100 corporate members - so there are lots and lots out there.

Linc

 

[Linc Williams]

@Linc Williams - One thing that really concerns me is that consumers are led to believe that the AEMSA seal certifies that a member's liquid is safe and free from D/A/AP, but this isn't the case. I only see that members are given information on how/where to test and are encouraged to do so. What is the purpose of certifying that a company meets high standards when they're not mandatory?

AEMSA is currently working with Subject Matter Experts to design a compliance plan for the membership that includes reporting of test results. Like anything that involves a large group (with varying resources) it will take some time for it to be finalized and implemented by the membership.

 

[RocketPuppy]

AEMSA is currently working with Subject Matter Experts to design a compliance plan for the membership that includes reporting of test results. Like anything that involves a large group (with varying resources) it will take some time for it to be finalized and implemented by the membership.

Does that mean the membership rates will rise even higher? It didn't seem like that big of a group. I only saw a couple dozen venders who were participating.

I guess my question is this. Besides having the AEMSA seal, what does being a member certify?

 

[SDOrganicChemist]

Another good test would be to heat DA-A-AP in the presence of nicotine. Nicotine has a "nucleophilic" nitrogen that can react with the carbonyl carbons of these "diketones" and in fact, form a molecule that's too heavy to vape. I surmise that the gunk formed on the coils and wicks when vaping liquids with these compounds are the side reactions of nicotine and diketones. I would really like to see that data.

 

[RocketPuppy]

Another good test would be to heat DA-A-AP in the presence of nicotine. Nicotine has a "nucleophilic" nitrogen that can react with the carbonyl carbons of these "diketones" and in fact, form a molecule that's too heavy to vape. I surmise that the gunk formed on the coils and wicks when vaping liquids with these compounds are the side reactions of nicotine and diketones. I would really like to see that data.

I've actually been wondering about how coil buildup gunk (for lack of a better term) affects us. Good question.

 

[SDOrganicChemist]

I would like to see standardized data of vapor at certain wattages, time period, temperature. I would also like testing on the exhalation to see how much the body absorbed.

I'm more worried about the metal content in the wire we use than I am diketones but that's another thread.

 

[RocketPuppy]

I would like to see standardized data of vapor at certain wattages, time period, temperature. I would also like testing on the exhalation to see how much the body absorbed.

I'm more worried about the metal content in the wire we use than I am diketones but that's another thread.

lol. It would be a good one to start. I know there has been some testing on this.

 

[Linc Williams]

Does that mean the membership rates will rise even higher? It didn't seem like that big of a group. I only saw a couple dozen venders who were participating.

I guess my question is this. Besides having the AEMSA seal, what does being a member certify?

AEMSA membership decides the dues each year. They set the agenda for what they want to accomplish (advocacy, training, scientific studies, FDA responses, toxicology studies etc) and the budget for those items from that the dues are calculated. For 2015 I do not expect a dues increase.

I understand that a lot of small businesses can not afford AEMSA membership ..... this is one of the reasons we freely publish the Standard to any who want it and i personally have offered advise and guidance to many small business who have contacted me. Each member started out on shoe string budgets and in the beginning could not afford AEMSA membership. Nicvape started on a $500 loan and a desire to grow and do it right mentality.

AEMSA Certifies members not e-liquid. AEMSA's Certification involves a verification that the member is manufacturing to the AEMSA standard and GMP principles to include traceability and repeatability. In the process of being certified the physical locations, the record keeping, documentation, SOPs and process is audited. The members agree to both scheduled and surprise inspections.

Members get multiple benefits but one of the biggest is that the members do no have to tackle industry issues alone. Things like the FDA deeming regulation response and delving deep into the DA/AP issue would be daunting alone but as a collective we can make headway and progress.

 

[lirruping]

@Linc Williams, I really appreciate you rising to the occasion and tackling all this. It is valuable to have access to your point of view as a vaper, representative of NicVape and AEMSA trustee.

For someone like me, just wading in, your contributions--this whole conversation--helps to get a clearer sense of what the issues are & starting to know how to think about them, what further questions to ask, etc. I need some time to absorb what's here and do some research of my own before I can tell if I have anything useful to add, but I hope others with clearer heads/different takes on any of the topics touched on here will chime in and keep a dialogue going. Thank you!

 

[wayward]

Hi, I came across this thread while searching for issues with cappella flavours and I know this thread is old but I just wanted to add something!
Been vaping for a couple of years now and in my search for the best flavours I recently bought some cappella's to try. Been using them for a few weeks now and noticed chest pains building. Started getting a bit paranoid and thought I'd switch back to some of my other flavours and within a day my chest pains were almost gone. With a couple more days since and I'm back to normal. I wasn't expecting any improvement. I am familiar with the pain, which is related to a bout of pleurisy from years back. Smoking normal cigs often agrivated the left over problem and was the reason I made the switch to vaping. Although in general I quite liked the cappella flavours, I am sure they don't agree with me. I will not be using them again, which is a shame as I bought 5 30ml bottles that are hardly used!
As said elsewhere on this thread, I really wish a company would test flavours for vaping use. Surly there is a big enough market now to justify more research. I would pay premium prices for flavours that are made specifically for vaping.

 

[lirruping]

wayward, Flavourart flavors have a whole "vaping line" separate from their "kitchen line", which have all been tested free of the baddies mentioned in this thread title. You can get FA flavors at good prices at MamaJ's Juice.

I've had similar experience with chest pains when vaping a lot of flavors with these ingredients. Sometimes it's even in stuff you wouldn't expect--like coconut or fruit flavors.

 

[Smoky Blue]

We have 3 known for testing flavors.. and I am always looking for more!

TFA (read their site reguarding each flavor), Fa (be careful not to get into their kitchen line, check their site), and NicVapes..

I think I am waiting to hear something from Flavorah, and one other.. but if anyone hears anything.. pop it up..

 

[lirruping]

I think I am waiting to hear something from Flavorah, and one other.. but if anyone hears anything.. pop it up..

Yeah, +1 on that!

For the moment, from what I can tell, there are baddies laced through lots of Flavorah flavors, but if they are as vaper-oriented as they seem like they want to be--and people make it known that diketone free options are a priority--this could change. And that would be great. The more companies that get rid of those ingredients, the more people will know it's a feasible (and tasty) option to avoid them.

I have the feeling right now that many people--especially non DIY people who rely mostly on what juice vendors tell them, feel like avoiding these ingredients is some huge, complicated, impossible research project. I know I have felt that way at times.

Right now I'm making the fairly-informed decision to vape acetyl propionyl/diacetyl/acetoin flavors some of the time, but I feel much better about it knowing that with certain companies I have the option to avoid them.

 

[misswish]

@wayward - you might think about trying to sell those flavorings, lots of people use them. Glad you found out early before you had worse problems.

 

[wayward]

Thanks for the replies guys.
You know what, after more searching on the subject I think I'm going to have a go at making my own flavours. Got lots of different herbs, fruit and veg in the garden. Heaps of yummy strawberries right now. Just need to get my head around the process and things like decarboxylation! Maybe I'll start another thread on that

 

[Smoky Blue]

Thanks for the replies guys.
You know what, after more searching on the subject I think I'm going to have a go at making my own flavours. Got lots of different herbs, fruit and veg in the garden. Heaps of yummy strawberries right now. Just need to get my head around the process and things like decarboxylation! Maybe I'll start another thread on that

ok.. that sounds all good.. but leave fruits out please..
you will not be able to get the sugars out of them proper.. your lungs will not be able to handle that..

nuts, mints, teas, coffee are a safe bet.. there are plenty of topics here on how to, as well as the net..
please, please.. research before you vape a homemade extract..

-from someone that learned the hard way

 

[Cloudboss]

If you take the bottle and shake it then hold it up against a light the cheaper liquids will show an oily substance in them. I believe that is the diacetyl. Only cheap brands seem to have it ie ones I bought at the gas station or online for ridiculously cheap

I did get a lung infection once from what I believe was el-cheap-0 ejuice. Now i try to buy ejuice that is clear with no color only. I really dont know how bad it is for you but even so, it cannot be as bad as cigarettes

 

[Smoky Blue]

If you take the bottle and shake it then hold it up against a light the cheaper liquids will show an oily substance in them. I believe that is the diacetyl. Only cheap brands seem to have it ie ones I bought at the gas station or online for ridiculously cheap

this is false..
if you smell any sort of buttery, creamy type..
or use questionable flavors that have not been tested, then you could be vaping the "big d and a.p"

btw, if it looks oily.. you have yet more issues..

 

[Cloudboss]

this is false..
if you smell any sort of buttery, creamy type..
or use questionable flavors that have not been tested, then you could be vaping the "big d and a.p"

btw, if it looks oily.. you have yet more issues..

Then what is the oily substance? I have never seen it in higher end juices

 

[Smoky Blue]

lol you tell me..

all i know, my lungs do not vape anything with oils in them..
and no telling where you get gas at..
I am not a chemist. I mix juice.. I make recipes.. I can tell you my flavors pass testing..
but i can not tell you what your flavors have, or dont.. as I do not know which brand etc you are talking about..
I wish I was more help to you, but.. I am not.. I am sorry!

 

[efektt]

Hi, I came across this thread while searching for issues with cappella flavours and I know this thread is old but I just wanted to add something!
Been vaping for a couple of years now and in my search for the best flavours I recently bought some cappella's to try. Been using them for a few weeks now and noticed chest pains building. Started getting a bit paranoid and thought I'd switch back to some of my other flavours and within a day my chest pains were almost gone. With a couple more days since and I'm back to normal. I wasn't expecting any improvement. I am familiar with the pain, which is related to a bout of pleurisy from years back. Smoking normal cigs often agrivated the left over problem and was the reason I made the switch to vaping. Although in general I quite liked the cappella flavours, I am sure they don't agree with me. I will not be using them again, which is a shame as I bought 5 30ml bottles that are hardly used!
As said elsewhere on this thread, I really wish a company would test flavours for vaping use. Surly there is a big enough market now to justify more research. I would pay premium prices for flavours that are made specifically for vaping.

You can always put them in your coffee or other foods, they are safe to eat.

 

[efektt]

Then what is the oily substance? I have never seen it in higher end juices

Its probably flavorings, that may have the big d, but they amount of d in 15mls is so small that i doubt you could see it with the human eye.

 

[wayward]

Umm yes looks like sugar is the problem with home brewed, that's a shame as I like the fruity flavours. Might try to recreate cappellas surprisingly nice lemon and lime with some zest in vg, but not sure if that will work either. I'll start simple with some Mints me thinks.

 

[wayward]

You can always put them in your coffee or other foods, they are safe to eat.

Yes was thinking of trying my hand at some hard candy. Don't know as if I would buy some 2nd hand flavours from someone I didn't know.

 

[efektt]

Yes was thinking of trying my hand at some hard candy. Don't know as if I would buy some 2nd hand flavours from someone I didn't know.

Yes, I am the same way. I tend to stick with flavourart. They are very transparent and have great quality flavors as long as you stay away from the kitchen line.

 

[Saddletramp1200]

UPS & FedEx are dropping off my VG & PG. Vaping sugar into your lungs might be a bad idea. MFS supplies my nic. Mt. Baker is my current flavor provider. I have wondered about China juice. I am to Chicken to try it.

 

[brandonduerr]

There are more than 2,000 substances used in flavoring manufacturing. The FDA regulates flavorings to ensure they are safe when eaten. Many flavorings have been in longstanding use and are classified by the FDA as "Generally Recognized as Safe" (GRAS) to eat. Thus far, the FDA does not require testing for other routes of exposure, such as inhalation. Though with new regulations, this will change in time.

Some flavoring manufacturers are using alternative substances for diacetyl in formulating flavorings. These compounds are acetoin and acetyl propionyl. Like diacetyl, these are 'GRAS' substances that are approved for use in food. Their chemical structures are very similar to diacetyl and have been found to be equally as harmful for inhalation.

Companies are not required to report if their flavorings contain less than 1% of diacetyl or diacetyl substitutes (https://www.dir.ca.gov/title8/5197.html).

Two companies (FA and TFA) have shown that in quantities with less than 0.5%, 1000s of ppbs have been found, yet NIOSH recommends the exposure limit (REL) for vapor inhalation up to 8-31 ppb.

CDC - NIOSH flavorings exposure
OSHA- Diacetyl and Diacetyl Substitutes
FDA New Authority on E-cigarettes

1% WITHOUT REPORTING
Department of CA Diacetyl Report of Use
Diacetyl Standard Becomes Official - Cal-OSHA

FlavourArt Information
FlavourArt Clearstream

The Perfumer's Apprentice/Flavor Apprentice - Click on "List" to see flavor components
TPA Spec Sheet and Components 513-86-0
TPA Spec Sheet and Components 600-14-6

IJ - Impact of Flavor Variability

VP LIVE - interview

EUROPEAN INFORMATION
Flavor and Manufactures Association Updated List April 28, 2014
FEMA flavor - Safety/Assesment/Regulatory Flavors (E-Cigarettes)
Perfumer/Flavorist Fema


Special thanks to we2rcool =)

very nice thank you

 

[Humulus Lupulus]

You and I had similar health issues before and improvements after quitting smoking, and I totally see your point of view on toxins in vapes. Vaping is obviously a huge improvement.

I'm always looking for more ways to minimize potential harm (while still vaping with abandon, lol). That's why I vape with the least possible flavoring and investigate details like this. When there are alternatives, I'm that kind of person who needs to know all the details before deciding. I hope nobody ever gets the impression I'm try to shove advice down their throat. I'm just...detail oriented.

Anyway, I used to get those itching spells. It took a while, but I tracked it to my VG. Switching to a different vendor fixed that for me. VG can be produced from varied raw ingredients, and you might have a sensitivity to one of them. That goes for VG in nic base, as an additive, and in flavorings with it (not a lot, but they exist).

Long time lurker and recipe user here. Don't mean to derail the dead thread, but I came upon this informative thread while trying to figure out 2 things.
1. Why I have been itching so badly. I assumed it was an additive and then found this. Sure enough, I just started diy and the vg is the only constant. Used VCV's base for weeks with no issues and then I switch due to cost and I feel like I need to go get deloused, lol. Would you be so kind as to pm me a good source?

2. Getting the train back on the diacetyl/acetoin track: severe anxiety, pounding heart, labored breathing, etc., which is something I am not prone to. It happened for several days about 3 weeks into vaping, then stopped. Months later (Just 2 days ago), it happened again. I realized that, in a pinch, I found an old bottle of a premade buttery vanilla custard and vaped it for a few hours and I back back in that bad place again. It hit me that it had to be that juice.

Maybe it's diacetyl and maybe not, but it is enought to make me steer clear.

Thanks for all you guys and gals do here!

 

[HeadInClouds]

1. Why I have been itching so badly. I assumed it was an additive and then found this. Sure enough, I just started diy and the vg is the only constant. Used VCV's base for weeks with no issues and then I switch due to cost and I feel like I need to go get deloused, lol. Would you be so kind as to pm me a good source?

This VG is sourced from Indonesian coconuts (does not taste like coconut) and has NEVER made me itch: http://www.rtsvapes.com/Vegetable_Glycerin_s/46.htm
Some others were instant trouble for me. A few others were fine for a while, then the itching started. The coconut-based has been the only one I've never had any trouble with, but it does cost more.

 

[Jasonfox1988]

Here are cappella list of flavours with and with out diktones http://usa.capellaflavors.com/a-p-status/


happy vaping

 

[HeadInClouds]

Here are cappella list of flavours with and with out diktones http://usa.capellaflavors.com/a-p-status/

Careful! Capella does NOT say those are diketone-free. They say this:

"What does AP Not Added mean ?
Not adding Acetoin and or Acetyl Propionyl compounds to our flavor formulation."

"Not adding" does not mean "not present". And even if those are not present, no claims are made there regarding diketones in general.

 

[Humulus Lupulus]

This VG is sourced from Indonesian coconuts (does not taste like coconut) and has NEVER made me itch: http://www.rtsvapes.com/Vegetable_Glycerin_s/46.htm
Some others were instant trouble for me. A few others were fine for a while, then the itching started. The coconut-based has been the only one I've never had any trouble with, but it does cost more.

Thanks! I was checking that site out earlier but was skeptical because of the mfg country. Will try it and let you know. I just ordered some from ED but might cancel since I just can't take it anymore, haha.

 

[Jasonfox1988]

Careful! Capella does NOT say those are diketone-free. They say this:

"What does AP Not Added mean ?
Not adding Acetoin and or Acetyl Propionyl compounds to our flavor formulation."

"Not adding" does not mean "not present". And even if those are not present, no claims are made there regarding diketones in general.

Yes you are correct there hic i did notice that and out of all emails iv sent to company's for a list what contain diktones cappella was the worse! I had to give a few mouthful to get a half decent reply of them even then they seem to want to avoid the fact!
Tfa on the other hand had the best reply and were very willing to tell me what is and aint got them nasties! Thumbs up to tfa


happy vaping

 

[Time]

Long time lurker and recipe user here. Don't mean to derail the dead thread, but I came upon this informative thread while trying to figure out 2 things.
1. Why I have been itching so badly. I assumed it was an additive and then found this. Sure enough, I just started diy and the vg is the only constant. Used VCV's base for weeks with no issues and then I switch due to cost and I feel like I need to go get deloused, lol. Would you be so kind as to pm me a good source?

2. Getting the train back on the diacetyl/acetoin track: severe anxiety, pounding heart, labored breathing, etc., which is something I am not prone to. It happened for several days about 3 weeks into vaping, then stopped. Months later (Just 2 days ago), it happened again. I realized that, in a pinch, I found an old bottle of a premade buttery vanilla custard and vaped it for a few hours and I back back in that bad place again. It hit me that it had to be that juice.

Maybe it's diacetyl and maybe not, but it is enought to make me steer clear.

Thanks for all you guys and gals do here!

I think if you used a nicotine test kit on that juice, you'd find the reason for those symptoms I highlighted above in red.

 

[lirruping]

Trying to figure out 2 things.
1. Why I have been itching so badly. I assumed it was an additive and then found this. Sure enough, I just started diy and the vg is the only constant. Used VCV's base for weeks with no issues and then I switch due to cost and I feel like I need to go get deloused, lol. Would you be so kind as to pm me a good source?

This VG is sourced from Indonesian coconuts (does not taste like coconut) and has NEVER made me itch: http://www.rtsvapes.com/Vegetable_Glycerin_s/46.htm
Some others were instant trouble for me. A few others were fine for a while, then the itching started. The coconut-based has been the only one I've never had any trouble with, but it does cost more.

Sorry to take this back off the title track, but I vape high VG (from Essential Depot) and have never considered the itching issue until recently. For some months, now, I've had patches of flaky, itchy dry skin in places I've never had dry skin before--like my legs. Although I'd heard of VG causing itching, I didn't make a connection until recently. I'm still not sure it's the culprit. I see that one way to pin it down may be to buy the RTS coconut-derived VG and see if that fixes the problem. Meanwhile, would you mind saying more about the kind of itching you had? Was it persistent and accompanied by flaky (when scratched) skin? I'd welcome any input from others who've experienced this or have theories about how vaping could be contributing to or causing this.

It occurred to me that because both PG and VG have "humectant" properties--they draw water--that the dry-skin effect could be an effect like dry nasal-passages, caused by any variety of pg/vg--but perhaps by some different physiologic mechanism. I'd like to avoid the conclusion that the only way to fix this is to stop vaping.

I've also had issues with swelling in my feet starting from right around the time I started vaping. I also moved from a temperate to a tropical climate at that time, however, and imagine this could be contributing. I have not been able to unearth much conversation about this among vapers, although one or two people mentioned when asked directly that they experienced it for a short period only after starting to vape.

 

[Humulus Lupulus]

I think if you used a nicotine test kit on that juice, you'd find the reason for those symptoms I highlighted above in red.

It was supposed to be 3mg, but I suppose it could have been way overdosed.

 

[HeadInClouds]

Meanwhile, would you mind saying more about the kind of itching you had? Was it persistent and accompanied by flaky (when scratched) skin? I'd welcome any input from others who've experienced this or have theories about how vaping could be contributing to or causing this.

For me it ranged from itchy peeling patches to insanely itchy eczema-like lesions persistent enough to interfere with sleep. I'm not an allergic, delicate type - this wasn't normal for me. I experimented extensively to determine VG was the cause. My personal theory: perhaps I'm allergic to some type of plant I never encounter in daily life (yet is used in VG). Other than that rtsvapes coconut-derived VG, I dare you to try finding out the sources of ANY other VG. Vendors just don't know, and manufacturers use whatever is in good supply, which varies by season.

 

[Humulus Lupulus]

For me it ranged from itchy peeling patches to insanely itchy eczema-like lesions persistent enough to interfere with sleep. I'm not an allergic, delicate type - this wasn't normal for me. I experimented extensively to determine VG was the cause. My personal theory: perhaps I'm allergic to some type of plant I never encounter in daily life (yet is used in VG). Other than that rtsvapes coconut-derived VG, I dare you to try finding out the sources of ANY other VG. Vendors just don't know, and manufacturers use whatever is in good supply, which varies by season.

Your symptoms are a lot like mine, right down to losing sleep.

As far as sourcing, I have seen a few claim the vegetable source and many claim that they use U.S.A. sourcing and manufacturing. After reading your post though, you took me back to my experience with nutritional supplements and protein insiders: everyone claims clean sourcing and purity but only a tiny handful can actually back it up and have the processes in place to do it, regardless of their intentions.

Good call, mang.

 

[Humulus Lupulus]

Welp, I ordered some vg, nic, and FA flavors from RTS. Bonus there is I am within a 1 day shipping range even for basic shipping. Second bonus is that it already shipped! Also threw my Capellas in the trash just in case their stuff is causing the issues. Their grape in vg is potentially a second constant. Based on this thread, not even worth revisiting to isolate it either. Much rather have ethical artificial flavor than legalesed natural flavor.

 

[Gratefulvapes]

Two companies (FA and TFA) have shown that in quantities with less than 0.5%, 1000s of ppbs have been found, yet NIOSH recommends the exposure limit (REL) for vapor inhalation up to 8-31 ppb.

Just curious what is the source for this limit I could find no article that states the same limit that you have. As far as I know the NOISH set limit it 136ppm not 8-31ppb.

 

[Jasonfox1988]

I vape the nasty diktones i just dont vape them every day! I could be wrong but i think having to much of anything can be bad. And who knows any flavour could be bad for the lungs lol


happy vaping

 

[HeadInClouds]

Just curious what is the source for this limit I could find no article that states the same limit that you have. As far as I know the NOISH set limit it 136ppm not 8-31ppb.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docket/archive/pdfs/NIOSH-245/0245-081211-draftdocument.pdf
relevant excerpt, emphasis mine:
"In many operations, 2,3-pentanedione and other substances are being used to substitute for diacetyl. There is little health effect data on these substances but it is appropriate to consider some of them as potentially as hazardous as diacetyl. Specifically, 2,3-pentanedione is structurally very similar to diacetyl because it is a 5-carbon alpha-diketone, and diacetyl is a 4-carbon alpha-diketone. Published reports on the toxicity of 2,3-pentanedione suggest that in rats 2,3-pentanedione causes airway epithelial damage similar to that produced by diacetyl [Hubbs et al. 2010;Morgan et al. 2010]. The toxic potency of the two substances appears to be roughlycomparable. Therefore, NIOSH recommends keeping occupational exposure to 2,3-pentanedione below a level comparable to that recommended for diacetyl. However, analytical limitations of
the recommended method indicate that 2,3-pentanedione can only be reliably quantified to 9.3 ppb. This is slightly higher than what is recommended for diacetyl. NIOSH recommends that exposure to 2,3-pentanedione be kept below a concentration of 9.3 ppb in a TWA during a 40-hour work week. NIOSH also recommends a STEL for 2,3-pentanedione of 31 ppb during a 15-minute period."

 

[Jasonfox1988]

LOL
Excuse my spelling

happy vaping

 

[Gratefulvapes]

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docket/archive/pdfs/NIOSH-245/0245-081211-draftdocument.pdf
relevant excerpt, emphasis mine:
"In many operations, 2,3-pentanedione and other substances are being used to substitute for diacetyl. There is little health effect data on these substances but it is appropriate to consider some of them as potentially as hazardous as diacetyl. Specifically, 2,3-pentanedione is structurally very similar to diacetyl because it is a 5-carbon alpha-diketone, and diacetyl is a 4-carbon alpha-diketone. Published reports on the toxicity of 2,3-pentanedione suggest that in rats 2,3-pentanedione causes airway epithelial damage similar to that produced by diacetyl [Hubbs et al. 2010;Morgan et al. 2010]. The toxic potency of the two substances appears to be roughlycomparable. Therefore, NIOSH recommends keeping occupational exposure to 2,3-pentanedione below a level comparable to that recommended for diacetyl. However, analytical limitations of
the recommended method indicate that 2,3-pentanedione can only be reliably quantified to 9.3 ppb. This is slightly higher than what is recommended for diacetyl. NIOSH recommends that exposure to 2,3-pentanedione be kept below a concentration of 9.3 ppb in a TWA during a 40-hour work week. NIOSH also recommends a STEL for 2,3-pentanedione of 31 ppb during a 15-minute period."

Ok this is a draft wtf is this supposed to mean it says draft all over that link you uploaded. if it was an official report it would be a different story they could have changed the limit for all we know when they made the final version of the paper.

 

[Gratefulvapes]

31 ppb during a 15-minute period."

ok I'm no math major but this is for a 15 minute period so which would put your total daily amount to 1488ppb per day. which is a way different number then your suggesting.

 

[HeadInClouds]

ok I'm no math major but this is for a 15 minute period so which would put your total daily amount to 1488ppb per day. which is a way different number then your suggesting.

I'm not suggesting anything. You couldn't find the numbers the previous posted quoted, and I linked you to the document with a quoted excerpt.

 

[Time]

Ok this is a draft wtf is this supposed to mean it says draft all over that link you uploaded. if it was an official report it would be a different story they could have changed the limit for all we know when they made the final version of the paper.

There is no NIOSH recommended limits at this time. The paper is a proposal and has yet to be approved.

 

[NGAHaze]

ok I'm no math major but this is for a 15 minute period so which would put your total daily amount to 1488ppb per day. which is a way different number then your suggesting.

That limit was given for a STEL which stands for 'Short Term Exposure Limit' meaning a person not subjected to exposure on a regular or long term basis.

I'm fairly certain it is not intended as a means for evaluating a daily limit.