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Diacetyl: Really Harmful? or Propaganda for regulation...?

Gratefulvapes

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Ok so first off I would like to say everything that I say here is my opinion (not fact), nothing more than the conclusions I have made given the research I have done. I also am not saying diacetyl is harmless, but rather something not worth all the witch hunts, or the customers that never stop asking if we use it in our flavors.

Is diacetyl really so harmful, a certain Dr. in the industry would love the world to believe that. "It is an avoidable risk" or so .
 

Gratefulvapes

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First off lets look at how diacetyl forms in e-liquid:



1) Diacetyl is a by product of Ethanol (Pure Alcohol) it forms naturally in Ethanol when the glucose is converted through fermentation into Ethanol



2) Acetoin will convert into Diacetyl simply by oxidizing in air during steeping/fermentation



3) Acetyl Propionyl when it comes in contact with certain bacteria it can cauterize into diacetyl



4) I already mentioned this but its worth mentioning any extract with ethanol can potentially turn into diacetyl



5) Burytic Acid the now standard substitute for Acetoin, AP (acetyl Propionyl) and diacetyl will also cauterize into diacetyl through a lengthy set of conversions



6) Glucose in e-liquid extracts can ferment and form diacetyl



7) Crudely extracted nicotine (extracted with a yeast) may combine with ethanol in extracts to create diacetyl



8) A extract vender may buy an extract of say burytic acid and their vendor might add some diacetyl into it for a better flavor without the extract companies awareness, we saw this with Capella's V1 Vanilla Custard



9) Unsanitary working conditions, lactic bacteria have the ability to be diacetyl precursors (Pediococcus and Lactobacillus0



All in all a complete avoidence of all Diacetyl is near impossible, however there is no need to add acetoin, AP, and diacetyl to the mix.




Another important note is that diacetyl toxicology has not be proven, as well as all diacetyl poisoning happened in popcorn factories (I believe only 4 recorded cases) to random people who all smoked cigarrettes. They have not been able to find any reason why only some of the popcorn workers got sick and not all who were exposed.




It is also worth mentioning that diacetyl poisoning supposedly happens in extremely low concentrations, meaning all takes almost nothing to be toxic, but like i said toxicology isnt proven yet although there are lab studies on rats showing similar effects from exposure, to those that worked at popcorn factories.



Also there is a very heavy concentration of diacetyl found in cigarettes on average 350ppm where as the limit that we work with is 13ppm. Given the relatively insane amount of diacetyl in cigs vs ecigs why are there not more people that have popcorn lung, still only 4 reported cases, as far as i can tell.


The EU has determined that we should wait and see if it is really as bad as people make it out to be and I think we should follow that model.
 

skoony

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its interesting to note aside from the two workers at a coffee roasting plant in Texas there have been no cases of popcorn lung diagnosed since the early 2000's. by the mid 2000's most court cases were settled. all told about 20 cases overall. may be a little more some sources claim less.
there was a brief scare concerning diacetyl in the restaurant industry in 2008 that quickly and quietly blew over.now there are concerns from the vaping community.
what people do not realize is these workers were using almost pure concentrated diacetyl.
the diacetyl in juice either added or formed naturally is suspended in a viscous liquid.
it would be interesting to see the results of the infamous rat tests if done with an EGO
T and Iclear16 at normal voltage and compare the results to those obtained when
diacetyl was dispersed in to the air.
 

outwest

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When vaping certain premium eliquids, I get a heaviness in my lungs. It could be an allergy to something in those particular flavor mixes, or it could be the diacetyl. I attribute it to diacetyl, but dunno for sure.
 

skoony

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When vaping certain premium eliquids, I get a heaviness in my lungs. It could be an allergy to something in those particular flavor mixes, or it could be the diacetyl. I attribute it to diacetyl, but dunno for sure.
VG is known to do that.
 

itsyourmove

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Just a thought. Who is Dr F? Isn't he a cardiologist? If I had lung issues he wouldn't be on my list for advice.
 

TwistedWires

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its a natural byproduct of fermentation. in commercial production diacetyl is produced by dehydrogenation of 2,3 butanediol. butanediol can also be naturally occuring it is also prepared by hydrolysis of 2,3-butene oxide.
its in your alcohol and its in your food. OSHA has stated that diacetyl may be hazardous to those around it and inhaling it for long periods of time during the heating process in making artificial butter. as far as i am aware there arent any sensitivities in people to the substance other than a supposed study of non smoking workers in factories that deal with diacetyl in the process of making artificial butter that have developed something know as bronchiolitis obliterans. really imo if you are worried about whats in e juices then you should look into producing yourown flavors and extracts but be careful mixing yourown e juice can be extremely dangerous in some instances.
really i dont think its much of an issue weve all been eating artificial butter since we were born and i aint dead yet!
 

TwistedWires

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yeah that study seems to be the only thing i can find that is significant. i honestly wouldnt worry about diacetyl too much. maybe more diverse and thorough research will be conducted in the near future
 

TwistedWires

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big diff between eating it and inhaling it !! search "popcorn lung" for a reality check

pretty much what bronchiolitis obliterans is. im not really too concerned my self. im about to start making my own natural vanilla flavors i thought about getting this https://flavorlaboratories.wordpres...h-no-acetyl-propionyl-or-acetoin-or-diacetyl/ sounds ok. im pretty much set on vanilla custard as my favorite flavor. its best to make things yourself so you canget a better since of whats in it and decide if its right for you. charlie noble charlies custard is my favorite so far and i know it has to have that crap in it plus it has 23pg. im ganna try making my own and see how that goes cuz imo diy is the best way to go plus i go through juice too quickly to keep having to order it and wait for it to come in waitin on 100vg vanilla custard from the uk so its takin awhile :/ and hell it probably has diacetyl, acetyl propionyl, or acetoin in it too but tomorrow im ordering the necessities to make my own after i deposit my paycheck. but yes i am clearly aware of all the health risks. when i quit smoking i had 2 choices left (not 3 F chantax!) cold turkey or delicious vapes. ive been dripping for 4 month and its worked fantastically unlike ecigs in the past. ive got rda's and coils that im happy with so its time to invest more into vaping. i love the smoking sensation i get 3mg even though i could use a 12 but i like to vape in long chain sessions lol i enjoy it so much. when i first started i was doing 12 and 16 but i started getting a nic buzz after about 15 minutes of vaping so now i vape 3 and 6 max. but im trying to get the best of the best juice together and by making my own juice i can easily get down to zero nicotine i can make 2mg/ml to 1.5 to 1 to .5 to 0 but yeah im aware of the danger but i enjoy it too much im just ganna figure out how to do it safer^^ lol p.s. sorry for the book lmao md 20/20
 

Time

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big diff between eating it and inhaling it !! search "popcorn lung" for a reality check

Not really. Seventy to seventy-five percent of what we perceive as taste actually comes from our sense of smell. If you're tasting diacetyl, you're inhaling it. The only real and relevant question is how much diacetyl is too much. If I inhale too much water, it could kill me. The amount of diacetyl in my vape has yet to be shown to be harmful, much like the amount of diacetyl my wife huffs while eating a bag of popcorn has yet to be found harmful. Who the fuck knows, maybe the chemicals used to make my favorite vape, straight up TFA Raspberry (sweet), will be found to be harmful.
 

TwistedWires

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Not really. Seventy to seventy-five percent of what we perceive as taste actually comes from our sense of smell. If you're tasting diacetyl, you're inhaling it. The only real and relevant question is how much diacetyl is too much. If I inhale too much water, it could kill me. The amount of diacetyl in my vape has yet to be shown to be harmful, much like the amount of diacetyl my wife huffs while eating a bag of popcorn has yet to be found harmful. Who the fuck knows, maybe the chemicals used to make my favorite vape, straight up TFA Raspberry (sweet), will be found to be harmful.

exactly! im not sure the LD50 of it but that only tells how much it takes to kill you (which im sure isnt very likely to kill you) still doesnt clarify the ratio ofexposure to the likely hood of getting popcorn lung. so here we are still half way in the light... more studies need to be conducted hopefully they will soon
 

Pauly Walnuts

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When vaping certain premium eliquids, I get a heaviness in my lungs. It could be an allergy to something in those particular flavor mixes, or it could be the diacetyl. I attribute it to diacetyl, but dunno for sure.
I attribute heaviness in my lungs to VG. Since I switched from max vg to 60vg 40pg, that heaviness has subsided alot.
Ive vaped lots of custards and lots of non custard "safe" recipes, in max vg and lesser ratios. The only difference I can tell in my own body is from the vg content.
 

TwistedWires

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I attribute heaviness in my lungs to VG. Since I switched from max vg to 60vg 40pg, that heaviness has subsided alot.
Ive vaped lots of custards and lots of non custard "safe" recipes, in max vg and lesser ratios. The only difference I can tell in my own body is from the vg content.

well i was a heavy smoker and i wont lie do enjoy the wacky tobcacky lol 100vg doesnt bother me i breathe clearer the moist vapes open up my sinus i have no problems at all but thats just how i am. my habits is probably why it doesnt bother me. everyones different though. but yeah insane improvement from cigarettes foods even taste better!! im so glad vaping has evolved the way it has. i remeber when the first ecigs came out and them things didnt cut it. i love smoking/vaping cold turky wont do... lowest ill go is 0mg but 0 vaping? nah ima do it forever^^ whats you favorite 60/40 custard? you might like this 50/50 drakes vape trifecta i prefer higher vg but i have to say this stuff is pretty good!
 

Time

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ahm yea ,,the sense of smell you are referring to is thru the roof of the mouth ,not directly thru the nose into the lungs,,again big diff

and to that other "comment" smdh that is presuming it is actually inhaled into the liungs

Your probably right. When food tastes bland when we have a stuffy nose it's because the roof of our mouth is plugged up and professional and amatuer tasters sniff before they taste because it just makes them look like they know what they are doing. LOL.

Every chemical present in the air, including the nasty smelling ones contained in a fart, are inhaled into the lungs. We don't have microfilters between our mouth/nose and lungs. That brown air the city folks breathe goes into the lungs. Diacetyl has been inhaled into the lungs for as long as it has been present in food and flavourings. Again, the only real and relevant question is how much is too much. Statistically, PG/VG is more likely to cause long term health concerns simply because of the volume we vape. 5-30mls a day going into the lungs, depending on vaping habits per individual. Nobody adds formaldehyde to our juice but it is present in our vape. Is it enough to cause long term health problems? Nobody knows. It's the same question. How much is too much.
 

Time

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ahm no.not really .what the fear mongerers don't & won"t tell you is .................formaldehyde is already present in the air we breath ,that means everybody breaths it,not just vapers .Oxygen count is around 20%,whats the other 80% ??
since 1900 the human nose hair has increased 100 hairs,the nose was meant to filter out as much bad crap as possible

yes there is alot of bad stuff in the air we breath on a daily basis,bigger the city the worse it is ,if i can eliminate 1.2 or 3 of those bad chemicals i will ,

Heh. Exactly. That's what I've been saying. Diacetyl is also naturally occurring. I'll repeat it one more time. The only real and relevant question is how much is too much. It's as true for aldehydes as it is for diacetyl. You call the people that fret about aldehydes fearmongerers but you make the same argument about diacetyl. Vaping increases our intake of aldehydes.

If you are going to make the same argument for diacetyl that others make for aldehydes, try to be consistent. What is true for aldehydes is also true for diacetyl. It's not the presence of the compound that is potentially harmful, it's the amount. *wink*
 

Time

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but is it naturally occuring in the air we breath ?? no

People have been breathing diacetyl for thousands of years. As stated by the OP, Diacetyl is produced during fermentation as a byproduct of valine synthesis. It is present in making alcohol and dairy products.

This is the part you are refusing to acknowledge. There are no known significant cases of bronchiolitis obliterans in the manufacture of alcohol and dairy products, yet diacetyl is present and workers breath when they work. Apparently, due to the lessor amount than what is found in a flavor manufacturing plant, it's not very harmful in smaller amounts. But for you, no amount is safe.

I, on the other hand, fully acknowledge that inhaling large amounts of diacetyl is likely not a good idea.

So, we can see where we stand. You seem to believe that despite thousands of years of people inhaling diacetyl in small amounts with no known ill effects while they make beverages and dairy products that a trace amount in ejuice is going to kill people. I believe that somewhere between inhaling consentrated diacetyl every day at work while making popcorn flavoring and inhaling smaller amounts there is a point where the risk is minimal. The same as aldehydes. Or stated more briefly, it's the amount that matters.
 

Time

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you are really missing the obvious !! and seems that can not change , so continue your life adding diketones to your lungs

I'm not missing anything. Your argument is the same as saying driving into a wall will kill you. Period. My argument is that driving into a wall at 200MPH will probably kill you but driving into a wall at 2MPH probably won't. Yours is absolute. Mine is scale. So no, my opinion won't change. I know there is a difference between getting shot with a BB gun and getting shot with a hunting rifle. The difference is scale. The BB gun won't hurt me.
 

Time

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driving into a wall won't always kill you,ask a NASCAR driver .yet people die at speeds of 25mph
your analogy is invalid and non very well thought out
mine is not and was never absolute ,but a conscious educated choice
you have never been shot with a bb gun either ! pointed in the correct point of the human body, the right target it will kill you

you must think you are 10 feet tall and bullet proof,or are vendor,i am going with the latter

No NASCAR driver has ever drove into a wall @ 200MPH, I have been shot with a BB gun, and I'm not a vendor. Your "education" is from the internet fearmongerers. The same education that the lady had last wednesday when she came up to me and pointed at my mod and said, "I read on the internet that those things have ten times the carcinegens that cigarettes do." True story. There is not one single study that says that diacetyl at the levels used in juice is harmful. There is only speculation based on over exposed factory workers and lab rats. This type of speculation and internet "education" about diacetyl and formaldehyde in ejuice is fueling the vaping ban debates. It has nothing to do with how tall I am or whether or not I'm bullet proof. It has everything to do with internet miseducation, misinformation and speculation moving vaping into a highly regulated and taxed vice.
 

RobbieR

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Why is it the only people that want to dispute weather inhaling Diacetyl is bad for you make or sell e-juice?

We may not know all the facts about Diacetyl but we do know for a fact that inhaling it is bad. The people who got sick working in popcorn factories proved it. Most of the factory workers that got sick where the ones working directly with Diacetyl mixing the flavor ingredients. They where the ones directly inhaling the vapor. Other people working in the Popcorn factories that were not mixing flavor ingredients did not get sick.

There is even the case of Wayne Watson from Colorado. He ate two bags of microwave popcorn a day for 10 years and he developed popcorn lung. He was the first person in the USA to develop popcorn lung that did not work in a popcorn factory. He won a $7 million lawsuit against the Popcorn Manufacturer a couple years ago.

As for why smokers don't get popcorn lung its my understanding ( I read it on the internet so it must be true :D) that once it com busts it chemically changes and does not have the same effect on our lungs as inhaling it as a vapor.

You can debate the numbers all day, but no one really knows at what level it becomes dangerous to inhale, we just know at some point its bad. I quite smoking and started vaping to get away from carcinogens & toxic chemicals, I want my juice to be as safe as possible & don't mind sacrificing a little flavor to get a safer juice. I am sure juice makers can make great juice without AP & DP, it just might take a little time and effort. I know this will cost money, but it is good for the future of vaping. Governments all over the world are looking for any excuse to regulate/ban/tax vaping. High levels of AP & DP in e-juice is just the sort of thing they are looking for. Lets not give them more ammunition.
 

Time

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you are beyond ignorant,there are 21 fact proven cases of inhaling diketones to cause popcorn lung from that factory

LOL. How much did they inhale? More or less than what is in juice?

Thousands of people have died from inhaling too much water, maybe you should have your juice tested for water content. :rolleyes:
 

RobbieR

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I am sure the people working in the popcorn factories inhaled lots. The better question is how much did Wayne Watson inhale from eating 2 bags of microwave popcorn a day?
 

Time

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Good question. I don't know the answer. Do you? It also begs the question, how many other people eat that much popcorn?
 

RobbieR

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I don't know the answer either, but I cant imagine it was very much. How much vapor can 2 bags of microwave popcorn really make? I did read that he would open the bag and stick his face in the steam because he liked the way it smelled, but that steam only lasts a few seconds before it dissipates. Once the steam is gone the vapor containing Diacetyl should be gone too.

As a vaper who is probably inhaling some level of Diacetyl, the cases of popcorn lung in people who worked in microwave popcorn factories is concerning for me, but the case of Wayne Watson scares the shit out of me.
 

Time

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I have no idea how much he got daily. With the exception of a couple buttery flavors, and very few at that now a days if any, nobody puts diacetyl in juice flavorings. What is out there now is almost exclusively trace amounts as byproducts from mixing. These trace amounts are what haunt flavor companies and mixers. You don't have to add diacetyl to have diacetyl in the juice.

Everybody has opened a fresh, hot bag of popcorn and gotten steam in their face. One person in millions that did it allot developed popcorn lung. The question remains, how much is too much. If flavor companies add diacetyl to a flavor, absolutely it should be disclosed. Having kittens about trace amounts in a juice is extreme. We can still buy butter flavored microwave or movie house popcorn with diacetyl in it. One extreme case did not cause the microwave and movie house butter flavoring to be banned. People still smell it. Nobody else has been harmed.
 

RobbieR

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The question remains, how much is too much

That's the million dollar question, and it seems like no one really knows the answer. Since no one knows the answer I am going to avoid inhaling Diacetyl as much as I can.

Do you consider the amounts Cloud 9 found in Five Pawns Juice trace amounts or substanstial? IMHO they are substancial, but I am not a Doctor or a Chemist :D
 

Time

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That's the million dollar question, and it seems like no one really knows the answer. Since no one knows the answer I am going to avoid inhaling Diacetyl as much as I can.

Do you consider the amounts Cloud 9 found in Five Pawns Juice trace amounts or substanstial? IMHO they are substancial, but I am not a Doctor or a Chemist :D

Oh, I don't think I'd buy butter popcorn flavor and snort a line once or twice a day. :p

I do eat a bag of microwave popcorn once in awhile and don't worry about it in my vape.

Not substantial. The flavor with the highest consentrations was 100ppm. That may seem high at first glance but not so much when we do the math. If we make it a percent, it comes to 0.01%. 1,000,000 X 0.01% = 100. For perspective, USP grade nicotine must be 99.5% pure. That leaves .5% for impurities. Most of that is water. But having read a few certificates of analysis for USP grade nicotine for different vendors, I know that most of the impurities, considered trace amounts, measure in the 0.01% range. These are usually chemicals used in the extraction process that you wouldn't want to ingest in very big amounts, like heavy metals. Nobody seems to worry much about the content of heavy metals in their nic. I don't.
 
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RobbieR

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100 ppm was the number Five Pawns released, Cloud Nines test results showed 2500 ppm for AP.

Now please correct me if I am wrong because I am not sure about this:

100 ppm of AP = 100 Micro Grams of AP per ML. If you vape 5 ml you are inhaling 500 Micro grams of AP.

In the United States the safe level of AP inhalation in an Industrial Envinroment (like a microwave popcorn factory) for workers is 136 micro grams or less a day. So a Vaper inhaling 500 mirco grams from their 5ml of Juice is inhaling significantly more than what is considered safe for a person working in a popcorn factory.

If we use Cloud Nines Number of 2500 PPM and you vape 5ml a day, that puts you at 12,500 micro grams a day. That seems like more than trace amounts to me. Like I said earlier please correct me if I am wrong. I got his information from another forum and do not know if it is completely accurate.
 

Pauly Walnuts

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AGAIN....beyond ignorant and in total denial
Yet again, your dealing in absolutes.

The way your acting is the problem. RobbieR is willing to have a conversation and be civil. Why arent you?
Time brings up some very valid points that you brush away as nonsense.
Just because you dont like something, doesnt mean others should share your taste. Being ignorant to your personal mindset and in denial of your personal certainties, only means they disagree and did not come to your personal conclusions.
 

Pauly Walnuts

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driving into a wall won't always kill you,ask a NASCAR driver .yet people die at speeds of 25mph
your analogy is invalid and non very well thought out
mine is not and was never absolute ,but a conscious educated choice
you have never been shot with a bb gun either ! pointed in the correct point of the human body, the right target it will kill you

you must think you are 10 feet tall and bullet proof,or are vendor,i am going with the latter
Accusing another forum member of being a shill is some pretty big talk.
 

Time

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and it went right over his head

LOL. No it didn't. You've been a member of VU a whole five weeks or so. Anybody that has been here longer than five minutes is familiar with me. There is no need for me to address stupid shit. :)
 

Time

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100 ppm was the number Five Pawns released, Cloud Nines test results showed 2500 ppm for AP.

Now please correct me if I am wrong because I am not sure about this:

100 ppm of AP = 100 Micro Grams of AP per ML. If you vape 5 ml you are inhaling 500 Micro grams of AP.

In the United States the safe level of AP inhalation in an Industrial Envinroment (like a microwave popcorn factory) for workers is 136 micro grams or less a day. So a Vaper inhaling 500 mirco grams from their 5ml of Juice is inhaling significantly more than what is considered safe for a person working in a popcorn factory.

If we use Cloud Nines Number of 2500 PPM and you vape 5ml a day, that puts you at 12,500 micro grams a day. That seems like more than trace amounts to me. Like I said earlier please correct me if I am wrong. I got his information from another forum and do not know if it is completely accurate.

Correct on all counts. I only looked at the diacetyl levels in the tests as I had not bothered to look at them before. I DIY my juice and really could care less about the Five Pawns scandal so I never bothered to look up the results before.The max for diacetyl was 100ppm. As it stands, I'll have to address AP in a day or so, It's late now and a busy weekend. At any rate, 2500ppm is not a trace amount.
 

MC5

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Getting back to the OP's question, as concerns about diacetyl and diketones in our liquid have been raised for a number of years by vapers themselves, with some evidence that ongoing exposure at higher levels causes irreversible lung damage, this isn't a propaganda issue at all but a genuine potential risk. How much of a risk, given the slow cumulative lung tissue destruction, is going to take a long time to really find out.

I think the bullet vs bb example is spot on. If one gets hit with a bb with enough repetition, it will kill you too. It just takes longer.

Knowing I will likely be vaping for many years in the future, I choose to minimize known potential risks and use flavorings in my liquids which have been tested for and are free of diketones. TFA and Flavorart have taken the time to help me choose liquids without these components. The caramels and custards that I enjoy which likely contain them get puffed, not inhaled.

Whether one sees the risk as minimal or important, flavoring and liquid makers that choose to openly disclose which products contain them are the leaders which show we as an industry and community will do what's best for vapers without the need for regulation. Those vendors get my vaping dollars.

If I only had a few years to live, I probably wouldn't care, as this stuff won't kill you in the short run. I want to live as long as a lifetime non-smoker would, proving that vaping works. In the long run.
 

Pauly Walnuts

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Wise man say "Everything in moderation" I live by that, and eventually will die by that too:)
Exactly. Its like drinking socially or only getting drunk on holidays. Everyone knows that downing that entire half gallon of whiskey will give you alcohol poisoning, but a little bit will barely effect your immediate health at all. Although, too many little bits will destroy your liver in the long run.
In wonder how many anti diacetyl crusaders drink alcohol?
 

RobbieR

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wonder how many anti diacetyl crusaders drink alcohol?


I wouldn't call it a "Crusade" because that would imply I am trying to convert others to my beliefs. I actually don't care what you guys inhale :D I just want Juice manufacturers and sellers to be open and honest about whats in their juice so I can make an informed decision before I buy it and inhale it.
 

Pauly Walnuts

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I wouldn't call it a "Crusade" because that would imply I am trying to convert others to my beliefs. I actually don't care what you guys inhale :D I just want Juice manufacturers and sellers to be open and honest about whats in their juice so I can make an informed decision before I buy it and inhale it.
I also would like this. People deserve to know what they are vaping.
well actually you did address it ,,fool
FOOL!? jesus fucking christ man, why do you have to act like that?
Id really like to know what you are accomplishing by being a dick.
 

skoony

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popcorn lung,popcorn lung.
i win. i can say popcorn lung.
every one else is wrong. popcorn lung.
we are definitely killing our selves.popcorn lung.
you can't disagree with me because i can say popcorn
lung.
;)
ike
 

Time

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100 ppm was the number Five Pawns released, Cloud Nines test results showed 2500 ppm for AP.

Now please correct me if I am wrong because I am not sure about this:

100 ppm of AP = 100 Micro Grams of AP per ML. If you vape 5 ml you are inhaling 500 Micro grams of AP.

In the United States the safe level of AP inhalation in an Industrial Envinroment (like a microwave popcorn factory) for workers is 136 micro grams or less a day. So a Vaper inhaling 500 mirco grams from their 5ml of Juice is inhaling significantly more than what is considered safe for a person working in a popcorn factory.

If we use Cloud Nines Number of 2500 PPM and you vape 5ml a day, that puts you at 12,500 micro grams a day. That seems like more than trace amounts to me. Like I said earlier please correct me if I am wrong. I got his information from another forum and do not know if it is completely accurate.

All righty then, I've had a bit of time to address this.

So, AP is not the same as diacetyl, obviously. Most vapers treat the two the same but they are not. 2500ppm is more than trace amounts. Is it significant? Yes and no. It's definately enough to say AP has been added. It's not enough to deem it as a definate health concern for me.

I cannot find a OSHA PEL for recommended workplace limits for AP in the US. There is none for diacetyl and acetoin. I don't think there is one for AP. I think they are still working on one. My google fu gave the source for your numbers, I think. I found them on the Cloud Nine page. They do say "The published occupational safety limit of AP is 135µg (135 parts per million)". They also give one for diacetyl, "there is a published occupational safety limit of 66µg (66 parts per million)". I believe these are EU or UK numbers. Not US numbers. That's why I needed time to respond. My prior reading on the subject lead me to believe there were no safety standards for diketone inhalation in the US. I needed to verify.

https://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/shib10142010.html

You'll want to know why I don't see it as a definate health concern. While, as you point out in the manner that Cloud Nine did, there is 2500 micrograms in a ml of juice and the EU or UK recommends inhaling less than 136 micrograms in a day. Having 2500ppm(I don't want to type micro grams every time) in a ml does not necessarily mean we are inhaling 2500ppm for every ml of juice we vape. I don't know how much of that survives being turned to a vapor. It has not been studied. I'm not saying it is not a health concern. I'm saying I don't know if it is a health concern. The UK or EU, who ever's numbers those are, see AP at roughly half the risk as diacetyl as far as volume. The inhalation recommendation for AP is double that of diacetyl. What we need, if the goal is to stay somewhat in the limits of a recommendation on amounts, is to know the AP ppm of the vapor, not the juice. It's my guess that it's no where near 2500.

I hope that helps.
 
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Pauly Walnuts

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holy sheep shit,,just why the hell did you even have to jump into this thread !!

i got it,you think they ar too weak to stand up for themselves and they need you to come riding in,in your bright shiny armor and save the day

pffffftttttttt
Oh man, that's rich.
 

Pauly Walnuts

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All I know is its yummy. I smoked for 17 years so whats this compared to the thousands of chemicals I've ingested

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I'd assume its a molehill compared to a mountain.
 

dre

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I think I have more of a chance of contracting blue waffle disease then popcorn lung. And FYI I'm a guy.

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Pauly Walnuts

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I don't know man, I heard it makes your dick fall off THEN you get blue waffle disease.
You should just go back to smoking.
 

Tcar

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To chime in on this I smoked a pack to a pack and a half a day for 20 years. The amount of diacetyl and AP in mainstream cigarette smoke is quite high compared to industrial exposures. There has been precisely zero cases of bronchiolitis obliterans attributed to smoking and before anyone says "it's under diagnosed or diagnosed as something else, " bronchiolitis obliterans is a very specific kind of constrictive airway disease that would show up with x-rays or biopsy. Surely to my layman's mind, some doctor would have caught it and it would have made a paper but there is not one I can find on the interwebs. It think it's alot of hype and fear mongering for various reasons, not the least of which is people trying to cut the competition's throat.

From the NIH:
"We found that diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione exposures from cigarette smoking far exceed occupational exposures for most food/flavoring workers who smoke. This suggests that previous claims of a significant exposure-response relationship between diacetyl inhalation and respiratory disease in food/flavoring workers were confounded, because none of the investigations considered or quantified the non-occupational diacetyl exposure from cigarette smoke, yet all of the cohorts evaluated had considerable smoking histories. Further, because smoking has not been shown to be a risk factor for bronchiolitis obliterans, our findings are inconsistent with claims that diacetyl and/or 2,3-pentanedione exposure are risk factors for this disease."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24635357

I do however support labeling and transparency by flavor manufacturers and juice makers so consumers can make informed decisions. I for one will keep vaping my D/AP flavors a and the occasional store-bought juice in DIY in moderation until further solid research comes out proving otherwise.

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Gratefulvapes

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I not saying in any light that juice makers should not avoid using diacetyl or that diacetyl is something that shouldn't be avoided because its harmless, because its not. An ignorant asshole would claim such lies.

Im saying we need to educate our customers, because there is a lot of misinformation and an over emphasis on the harm of diacetyl. RobbieR you ask why only juice makers start these threads, because we make the stuff and know whats in it more than most DIY'ers (not trying to be rude I liked your addition to this conversation unlike exodus). I make liquid professionally and take pride in offering a product that is significantly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, and if we know diacetyl is harmful to the lungs why add it in. Im not debating that logic because it is spot on IMHO. But why get customers so worked up it puts people out of business over the smallest amounts of stuff that isn't killing people like cigarettes.

It pains me that people don't educate themselves before they determind the risk involved, my only goal is education and some light on the other side of this argument not a bunch of fear tactics for high regulation (which to be honest I think this industry really needs), and taxation. Lets regulate our industry without creating fear of our products, its a foolish move.
 
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Gratefulvapes

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All righty then, I've had a bit of time to address this.

So, AP is not the same as diacetyl, obviously. Most vapers treat the two the same but they are not. 2500ppm is more than trace amounts. Is it significant? Yes and no. It's definately enough to say AP has been added. It's not enough to deem it as a definate health concern for me.

I cannot find a OSHA PEL for recommended workplace limits for AP in the US. There is none for diacetyl and acetoin. I don't think there is one for AP. I think they are still working on one. My google fu gave the source for your numbers, I think. I found them on the Cloud Nine page. They do say "The published occupational safety limit of AP is 135µg (135 parts per million)". They also give one for diacetyl, "there is a published occupational safety limit of 66µg (66 parts per million)". I believe these are EU or UK numbers. Not US numbers. That's why I needed time to respond. My prior reading on the subject lead me to believe there were no safety standards for diketone inhalation in the US. I needed to verify.

https://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/shib10142010.html

You'll want to know why I don't see it as a definate health concern. While, as you point out in the manner that Cloud Nine did, there is 2500 micrograms in a ml of juice and the EU or UK recommends inhaling less than 136 micrograms in a day. Having 2500ppm(I don't want to type micro grams every time) in a ml does not necessarily mean we are inhaling 2500ppm for every ml of juice we vape. I don't know how much of that survives being turned to a vapor. It has not been studied. I'm not saying it is not a health concern. I'm saying I don't know if it is a health concern. The UK or EU, who ever's numbers those are, see AP at roughly half the risk as diacetyl as far as volume. The inhalation recommendation for AP is double that of diacetyl. What we need, if the goal is to stay somewhat in the limits of a recommendation on amounts, is to know the AP ppm of the vapor, not the juice. It's my guess that it's no where near 2500.

I hope that helps.

The problem with this isn't the high levels of AP its the fact that the AP will readily cauterize into diacetyl through oxidation (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) so the longer it sits on the shelf the more diacetyl you in turn have. In reality this isn't such an issue for the customer, as the juice maker. Anyone who has done a little research into diacetyl in brewing will know that it has an extremely strong flavor and it doesn't take much to make it too much also diacetyl forms best at 68 degrees Fahrenheit or higher (a diacetyl rest in brewing), the temp of most shops and warehouses. So about the worst thing that could happen besides the likely high amounts diacetyl that is now in your liquid is that fact that you can have such a strong butter flavor that makes it no longer creamy but unpleasant sour flavor after the liquid gets a few months old.
 

Time

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The problem with this isn't the high levels of AP its the fact that the AP will readily cauterize into diacetyl through oxidation (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) so the longer it sits on the shelf the more diacetyl you in turn have. In reality this isn't such an issue for the customer, as the juice maker. Anyone who has done a little research into diacetyl in brewing will know that it has an extremely strong flavor and it doesn't take much to make it too much also diacetyl forms best at 68 degrees Fahrenheit or higher (a diacetyl rest in brewing), the temp of most shops and warehouses. So about the worst thing that could happen besides the likely high amounts diacetyl that is now in your liquid is that fact that you can have such a strong butter flavor that makes it no longer creamy but unpleasant sour flavor after the liquid gets a few months old.

Acetoin can change into diacetyl. I don't believe the problem with AP is that it changes. AP is considered "potentialally harmful" on it's own so even if it did change, it doesn't matter.

Acetoin get's a bad rep because it can change to diacetyl under the right conditions and this what gives flavor companies and juice makers fits. Acetoin is not considered to have the potential problems that diacetyl and AP fears carry. You can hear this coming straight from the doctors mouth. The doctor responsible for this popcorn lung scare, that is. Listen here: https://soundcloud.com/soundcloud.com%2Fvp-live%2Fsuicide-bunny-e-liquids-test-positive
While Acetoin can change to diacetyl, it does so only under some circumstances and only tiny amounts change. This is what causes trace amounts of diacetyl in juice that that has no diacetyl added. These trace amounts tend to freak some people out because they read on the internet it's bad for you.

Because of the long and mostly undisclosed supply chain for the chemicals to make flavors, a juice maker must test every batch of juice made. You can find discussions about this here at VU in the DIY sections. There are flavor manufactures that do test each batch of flavors for diacetyl/AP but even so, if you as a juice maker use their flavors to make juice, you cannot rely on the flavor companies test results because the Acetoin may convert to diacetyl in your juice. You have to test your juice. If you don't, and you claim diacetyl free and some one tests it finds trace amounts, you will be hung out to dry on the interwebs.

The problem with all this testing is it becomes cost prohibitive. The flavor manufacturers must test the chemicals they get, they must test the final product, the juice makers must test their final product and along the way batches must be discarded. And that's just to satisfy consumers that want full disclosure. If everybody keeps this issue in the limelight, we'll have more expensive .gov protocols. All for something that has been present in cigs at higher volumes than what was found at popcorn factories.
 

RobbieR

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I appreciate all the comments for and against. I am not here to get in a pissing contest with anyone about who is right and who is wrong. I have learned allot about diacetyl, AP & DP from this thread. I personally just want more information about what I am putting in my body. Sadly it looks like there isn't any solid evidence for or against because no one has done any studies on how diacetyl affect vapers. The only credible information we have comes from a handful of people who got sick from exposure during microwave popcorn production (& one microwave popcorn junky)

I am surprised more people are not participating in this thread, when the numbers for Five Pawns came out the entire vaping community was outraged and every vaping forum went into hyper drive. @Gratefulvapes & @Time have brought up some very valid points about why we might be over reacting but no one cares to debate them.

I am still in the camp that believes Diacetyl, AP & DP are bad for me on some level. How bad has not been determined by science at this point in time so I will avoid vaping it.
 

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