Diacetyl: Really Harmful? or Propaganda for regulation...?

[Gratefulvapes]

I appreciate all the comments for and against. I am not here to get in a pissing contest with anyone about who is right and who is wrong. I have learned allot about diacetyl, AP & DP from this thread. I personally just want more information about what I am putting in my body. Sadly it looks like there isn't any solid evidence for or against because no one has done any studies on how diacetyl affect vapers. The only credible information we have comes from a handful of people who got sick from exposure during microwave popcorn production (& one microwave popcorn junky)

I am surprised more people are not participating in this thread, when the numbers for Five Pawns came out the entire vaping community was outraged and every vaping forum went into hyper drive. @Gratefulvapes & @Time have brought up some very valid points about why we might be over reacting but no one cares to debate them.

I am still in the camp that believes Diacetyl, AP & DP are bad for me on some level. How bad has not been determined by science at this point in time so I will avoid vaping it.

One of the biggest reasons IMO that their isn't more discussions like this in the forms is that I kept getting blocked by the form up until I split my thread into a reply, hence the weird format in the beginning post. Im not going to lie I'm on a mission to counter all the diacetyl propaganda that riddles our industry, but I want people to make educated decisions not just follow my model, do your research and determine for yourself the risks involved. Makes me sad our industry is trying to keep both sides out of the conversation. You see endless threads on how diacetyl is harmful, but almost none as to why that isn't exact right. Like I said before, my only goal is educated decisions and allow two sides to an argument.

I would love to know why people think it is harmful, but most of what I have seen is either opinion to make a heather decision, or down right over exaggerations of unproven theories. "They once theorized the world was flat," as my mom would say.

 

[Tcar]

One of the biggest reasons IMO that their isn't more discussions like this in the forms is that I kept getting blocked by the form up until I split my thread into a reply, hence the weird format in the beginning post. Im not going to lie I'm on a mission to counter all the diacetyl propaganda that riddles our industry, but I want people to make educated decisions not just follow my model, do your research and determine for yourself the risks involved. Makes me sad our industry is trying to keep both sides out of the conversation. You see endless threads on how diacetyl is harmful, but almost none as to why that isn't exact right. Like I said before, my only goal is educated decisions and allow two sides to an argument.

I would love to know why people think it is harmful, but most of what I have seen is either opinion to make a heather decision, or down right over exaggerations of unproven theories. "They once theorized the world was flat," as my mom would say.

I once got banned from a Facebook juice group, for telling someone who thought that saline in juice would cause the sodium chloride to break down into chlorine gas when vaped, that their hysterical claims were false, baseless, and just now how the world works.

One of the reasons in a meta sense is that on the Internet the loudest and shrillest voice is the one that seems to be heard.



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[Pauly Walnuts]

Ideas that produce fear are accepted and demonized quickly, regardless of their validity. Ideas that seem normal are just that, normal. Normality doesn't induce anything.
People are faster to spread scary notions than casual truths.
Apples are good for you. No shit, everyone knows that.
Object A causes catastrophic genital discharge. Avoid it at all costs and tell everyone you know.
Its human nature

 

[Tcar]

You had me at genital discharge.

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[Pauly Walnuts]

You had me at genital discharge.

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You had me at chlorine gas!

 

[Tcar]

Dead serious about that. Someone actually had a juice group believing salt water would turn into chlorine gas in an atty at a lousy 500deg . Even at 1200f the melting point of kanthal, salt is still salt. It even doesn't melt until 1400f+. It doesn't boil until 2500f+ and even then, it's not going to split into it's component atoms. FFS, you don't make rocket fuel (liquid hydrogen & oxygen) by boiling water. SMH.

VAPERS!

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[MC5]

Im not going to lie I'm on a mission to counter all the diacetyl propaganda that riddles our industry, but I want people to make educated decisions not just follow my model, do your research and determine for yourself the risks involved. Makes me sad our industry is trying to keep both sides out of the conversation. You see endless threads on how diacetyl is harmful, but almost none as to why that isn't exact right. Like I said before, my only goal is educated decisions and allow two sides to an argument.

I would love to know why people think it is harmful, but most of what I have seen is either opinion to make a heather decision, or down right over exaggerations of unproven theories. "They once theorized the world was flat," as my mom would say.

Calling current scientific conclusions "propaganda" suggests there is a conspiracy of some kind. I guess one man's science is another man's propaganda. Although there is certainly more to find out about the cumulative permanent irreversible lung damage that has been tied to diacetyl years before ecigs existed, there have been enough studies already showing long term exposure likely causes harm.

It seems like common sense to me to minimize inhaling it over and over for years, which we vapers will do.

Here's an example of the information about diacetyl that I considered helpful - http://www.toxipedia.org/display/toxipedia/Diacetyl

One quote from that article "Consumers can limit their risk by avoiding excessive amounts of products that contain diacetyl, especially those that undergo heating"

The information we have to date suggest heated diacetyl and related diketones should not be inhaled if possible. That's what I got out of educating myself. Since I expect to keep inhaling vapor quite a bit for the next 20 years or so, I choose to minimize this likely risk.

ConAgra and General Mills voluntarily removed it without waiting for regulation. So have a number of liquid and flavoring makers. If our industry wants to minimize regulation, defending an unhealthy additive seems to be counterproductive.

Seems like we have enough information to ask liquid and flavoring makers to at least let us know which products contain it. Then we can each actually make an informed decision.

 

[Gratefulvapes]

Calling current scientific conclusions "propaganda" suggests there is a conspiracy of some kind. I guess one man's science is another man's propaganda. Although there is certainly more to find out about the cumulative permanent irreversible lung damage that has been tied to diacetyl years before ecigs existed, there have been enough studies already showing long term exposure likely causes harm.

It seems like common sense to me to minimize inhaling it over and over for years, which we vapers will do.

Here's an example of the information about diacetyl that I considered helpful - http://www.toxipedia.org/display/toxipedia/Diacetyl

One quote from that article "Consumers can limit their risk by avoiding excessive amounts of products that contain diacetyl, especially those that undergo heating"

The information we have to date suggest heated diacetyl and related diketones should not be inhaled if possible. That's what I got out of educating myself. Since I expect to keep inhaling vapor quite a bit for the next 20 years or so, I choose to minimize this likely risk.

ConAgra and General Mills voluntarily removed it without waiting for regulation. So have a number of liquid and flavoring makers. If our industry wants to minimize regulation, defending an unhealthy additive seems to be counterproductive.

Seems like we have enough information to ask liquid and flavoring makers to at least let us know which products contain it. Then we can each actually make an informed decision.

The thing that most people don't realize when they read these toxicology sheets is that it is a toxicology of the substance in its purest form, at most I have seen eliquid at .25% diacetyl hardly a comparison from eliquid to toxicology. Poisoning happens in concentration, true the concentration of diacetyl to be poisonous is very small, but you really can't compare 100% diacetyl to on adverage the .005% diacetyl found in eliquid. And again this toxicology isn't proven, although they had similar side effects to the rats as the popcorn workers, we are not rats and human toxicology trials will not happen for obvious reasons, so we really won't know till later. My whole point is this is an unknown in science, solid theories, but none the less just that. Why is everyone so up in arms about a disease that has effected so little people at this point... If their were a 1000+ case studies on people that go sick from this substance I would be on board for being afraid, but there is not, there is little over 20 victims. Thats 20 in the entire world, minus the ones that weren't documented (I assume this rare disease would warrant documentation). So why freak out that is 0.00000000280702% of the world that has experienced this disease. Also it is worth mentioning that people have been exposed to diacetyl for quite some time with cigarettes, and yet there is still only 20 cases. Also diacetyl forms from the vapor coming off of cigarette smoke not from inside the cigarette it self, it is a byproduct of heat and oxidation of the cigarette. I say let there be victims before we freak out, never in my life have I seen so many people freak out over 20 people getting sick.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24635357

 

[Tcar]

The thing that most people don't realize when they read these toxicology sheets is that it is a toxicology of the substance in its purest form, at most I have seen eliquid at .25% diacetyl hardly a comparison from eliquid to toxicology. Poisoning happens in concentration, true the concentration of diacetyl to be poisonous is very small, but you really can't compare 100% diacetyl to on adverage the .005% diacetyl found in eliquid. And again this toxicology isn't proven, although they had similar side effects to the rats as the popcorn workers, we are not rats and human toxicology trials will not happen for obvious reasons, so we really won't know till later. My whole point is this is an unknown in science, solid theories, but none the less just that. Why is everyone so up in arms about a disease that has effected so little people at this point... If their were a 1000+ case studies on people that go sick from this substance I would be on board for being afraid, but there is not, there is little over 20 victims. Thats 20 in the entire world, minus the ones that weren't documented (I assume this rare disease would warrant documentation). So why freak out that is 0.00000000280702% of the world that has experienced this disease. Also it is worth mentioning that people have been exposed to diacetyl for quite some time with cigarettes, and yet there is still only 20 cases. Also diacetyl forms from the vapor coming off of cigarette smoke not from inside the cigarette it self, it is a byproduct of heat and oxidation of the cigarette. I say let there be victims before we freak out, never in my life have I seen so many people freak out over 20 people getting sick.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24635357

One point I'm like to make is that diacetyl (as 2,3-Butanedione) is an actual flavor additive to cigarettes & tobacco. It's not just a byproduct but an actual additive for flavoring. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_additives_in_cigarettes

Two, AP (C5H8O2) doesn't "oxidize" into diacetly (C4H6O2). It would require a catalyst (an enzyme ususally) through dehydrogenation. Diacetyl is produced from 2,3-Butanediol (CH3)2(CHOH)2 which is converted into Acetoin, then into Diacetyl.

 

[Time]

Calling current scientific conclusions "propaganda" suggests there is a conspiracy of some kind. I guess one man's science is another man's propaganda. Although there is certainly more to find out about the cumulative permanent irreversible lung damage that has been tied to diacetyl years before ecigs existed, there have been enough studies already showing long term exposure likely causes harm.

It seems like common sense to me to minimize inhaling it over and over for years, which we vapers will do.

Here's an example of the information about diacetyl that I considered helpful - http://www.toxipedia.org/display/toxipedia/Diacetyl

One quote from that article "Consumers can limit their risk by avoiding excessive amounts of products that contain diacetyl, especially those that undergo heating"

The information we have to date suggest heated diacetyl and related diketones should not be inhaled if possible. That's what I got out of educating myself. Since I expect to keep inhaling vapor quite a bit for the next 20 years or so, I choose to minimize this likely risk.

ConAgra and General Mills voluntarily removed it without waiting for regulation. So have a number of liquid and flavoring makers. If our industry wants to minimize regulation, defending an unhealthy additive seems to be counterproductive.

Seems like we have enough information to ask liquid and flavoring makers to at least let us know which products contain it. Then we can each actually make an informed decision.

You do understand there are trace amounts of heavy metals and other contaminants in your vape, right? The potential health risks for them are known.

Do you only vape 0mg nic juice so you can eliminate these?

If you buy juice from a vendor, maybe you should ask that they test for those too since we don't know where they get their nicotine and it can contain heavy metals.

Vapor, no matter the flavor, contains aldehydes. The potential risks are known. You still vape.

Most people that are aware that our vape has some bad stuff in it continue to vape under the assumption that the amount of these baddies is less than the amount they were getting while smoking and thus the risk is significantly reduced. It actually makes sense. The same is true for diacety/AP. We are getting less than when we smoked, even when diacetyl is present.

I, personally, get mildly amused when I read of the crusade against all diacetyl from people that ignore the significance of the amount of diacetyl/AP but happily go about vaping known carcinegens such as aldehydes with the very theory that the amount is small enough that it is a reduced risk. Let's just call it "contradictory". If our industry wants to minimize regulation, in your words, using contradictory arguments is not going to help.

 

[itsyourmove]

You do understand there are trace amounts of heavy metals and other contaminants in your vape, right? The potential health risks for them are known.

Do you only vape 0mg nic juice so you can eliminate these?

If you buy juice from a vendor, maybe you should ask that they test for those too since we don't know where they get their nicotine and it can contain heavy metals.

Vapor, no matter the flavor, contains aldehydes. The potential risks are known. You still vape.

Most people that are aware that our vape has some bad stuff in it continue to vape under the assumption that the amount of these baddies is less than the amount they were getting while smoking and thus the risk is significantly reduced. It actually makes sense. The same is true for diacety/AP. We are getting less than when we smoked, even when diacetyl is present.

I, personally, get mildly amused when I read of the crusade against all diacetyl from people that ignore the significance of the amount of diacetyl/AP but happily go about vaping known carcinegens such as aldehydes with the very theory that the amount is small enough that it is a reduced risk. Let's just call it "contradictory". If our industry wants to minimize regulation, in your words, using contradictory arguments is not going to help.

I've been vaping for over two years and never knew or heard about heavy metals in our vape. I took up vaping to stop smoking and it worked from day one. I continue to vape because I could never stop smoking on my own and I was always under the impression it was way safer to vape then smoke. Now it seems like vaping is not at all safe. It's just gloom and doom for vaping.

 

[Tcar]

Yeah there's metal in your vape. Just like there's arsenic in your food, radioactivity in bananas, and toxic mold in your shower. It's all in the amount and length of exposure.

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[Time]

A lot of drinking water also has heavy metals,store bought drinking water is the worse . humans have been consuming it for thousands of years and our body have adapted to it,some just handle it better then others

Inhaling diketones has been proven to cause popcorn lung ,the potential is there yet people still think it is just fine to vape it and even go so far as to defend it

while there are no studies,clinical tests or any other scientific data proving or disproving the use diketones in juice exist [with the exception of that study in Greece 5 years ago that use "healthy smokers as a control group],the potential is there .should it ever be proven or even a possibilty exists,that will give the FDA all the firepower they need to insert the heavy hand of regulation,to save us from ourselves
Should it ever be proven

And to say ,it is better then smoking ,while true it is just ignorant to go that route .it is safer to jump from the 2nd story of a building then the 10th floor[thats my take on the saying],yet i don't see anybody going that route ,yea i know,bad analogy

you can't eliminate all risks,but you can minimize them

You can eliminate all risks from vaping. Don't vape. There is nothing to say that your vape without diketones is any safer than your vape with diketones.

Diketones, for many people, are enjoyable. They are tasty. If they weren't so tasty as used in flavorings we wouldn't be having this conversation cause nobody would use them. Tasty vapes help people quit smoking and tasty vapes with fewer diketones than a cigarette or popcorn factory workplace is safer than smoking.

And no, Diketones are not "proven" to cause popcorn lung. Diketones are simply considered the most likely cause. The other compounds present in the factories were not studied. The other compounds in the bags of popcorn that one man sniffed every day were not tested.

And for the record, all this talk of self regulating so the government doesn't step in is horseshit. Testing costs money. The people that buy juice pay for it in the price of the juice. Poorer vapers will by cheaper juice that has not been tested. So, when the .gov assholes see cheaper, untested juice on the market if people keep making this a big deal, they will call for regulation to save the "poor" people. China will still sell butterscotch flavor diacetyl for $1.99 for 10mls and people will still buy it. US juice makers that spend thousands on testing will be selling juice at much higher prices. All for something that has yet to be proven harmful in vaping.

 

[itsyourmove]

The Greek test with healthy smokers seems like a oxymoron. The word healthy is not associated with smoking, unless they have only smoked a day or two. We are looking at what 20 cases of popcorn lung out of 1000's of workers in that industry.If you are a ex smoker knowing that millions have died from smoking from lung cancer to heart attacks and strokes the second floor jump doesn't sound so bad. Just saying.

 

[Time]

ah but in your own words in regards to another chemical [the potential is there] just why the hell are you trying to justify it use ?!?!?

Because if I didn't get popcorn lung from smoking diacetyl in cigarettes, and nobody ever has, then it's not very likely I'll get popcorn lung from vaping diacetyl, and nobody ever has.

Now, when you can show me a single case of popcorn lung in a vaper and not just people that think a vaper might get popcorn lung, you'll have something to work with. As it stands, statistically and scientifically, there is only speculation-ideas or guesses about something that is not known, that diacetyl in vaping will cause popcorn lung. Just like the fearmongerers use speculation that aldehydes in vaping will cause health concerns.

 

[itsyourmove]

Because if I didn't get popcorn lung from smoking diacetyl in cigarettes, and nobody ever has, then it's not very likely I'll get popcorn lung from vaping diacetyl, and nobody ever has.

Now, when you can show me a single case of popcorn lung in a vaper and not just people that think a vaper might get popcorn lung, you'll have something to work with. As it stands, statistically and scientifically, there is only speculation-ideas or guesses about something that is not known, that diacetyl in vaping will cause popcorn lung. Just like the fearmongerers use speculation that aldehydes in vaping will cause health concerns.

I'd love to post your reply in another forum.

 

[Time]

I'd love to post your reply in another forum.

Feel free to do so.

 

[itsyourmove]

Thanks and I will so.

 

[Tcar]

Mmmmm, delicious blueberry custard with good god knows what in the flavoring on nickel wire that I dry burned to clean off. . .

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[Time]

i would imagine at this point ,you have scientific proof the that vaping diacetyl is 100% safe and no harm will ever come from vaping correct !!

there are 21 factory workers and 1 popcorn fanatic that have gotten popcorn lung,there are court cases to back that up
those court cases will be benchmark points for regulation ,do you really want to push that envelope !!

*sigh*

You are thick, aren't you?

Fuck the factory workers. Show me a smoker or a vapor with popcorn lung. Just one.

From 1999 through 2010,
a total of 46,419 deaths from
inhaling water(drowning) occurred in
the United States, an average of
3,868 deaths per year.

Does that mean that inhaling water that's in our juice will kill us? Is that some kind of fucking "proof"? No, it isn't. A dead vaper from vaping water is fucking proof, not 46,419 drowning victims.

Show me a vaper with popcorn lung. Until then, there is no merit to your claims.

 

[Time]

and you call me thick . there is no water in my juice no more then there is any dihydrogen monoxide

Yes, you are thick. And ignorant.

There is water in your juice.

heartland vpaes nic is nice and smooth

Water content .1%

http://wholesale.heartlandvapes.com/docs/nicotine-coa.pdf

My guess is, it's not enough to hurt you. You shouldn't drown.

 

[Tcar]

I sometimes add 5% of 0.9% saline to my DIY. This includes whatever trace water is already in the VG and what it savages from the air. Just saying.

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[Tcar]

Just to be a technical pedant, there is water in USP VG. . . Here are the specs.

http://www.srsbiodiesel.com/technologies/glycerin-purification/glycerin-specifications/

 

[Time]

being the dumbass that you are ,you should look a litle further,you'd find i am a 0mg'er now

try again ,but in all honesty,the water angle is incredibly stupid

i sure hope 5 pawns is paying you good for this pathetic attempt at "damage control" even tho it is no avail

Heh. So your saying that your VG/PG and flavors have all tested negative for water? I'd like to know where you get 100% pure VG. It's made using water and all VG I'm aware of still has some water in it. Do you test your juice?

It's funny that you bring up Five Pawns since you just did the same thing, make false claims that something isn't in your juice. Diacetyl and AP didn't get them busted. Making false claims that their juice didn't have those compounds did. You and Five Pawns are the same in that regard. I do give you a bit of a pass though. I don't think your false claim of no water was done under the same pretense as Five Pawns claim of no diacetyl or AP. I think yours was just a matter of not knowing what the fuck you're talking about. If it makes you feel better, I'll go on the record and say that I don't think the amount of water in your juice will hurt anyone. But really, you and Five Pawns should be honest about what is in your juice.

 

[Tcar]

you are just amusing at best.......................carry on

At least one of us is amusing.

Again, to repost what I said about a dozen posts ago, even the NIH can't quite come to an agreement about the popcorn workers, diacetyl, and bronchiolitis obliterans.

"Further, because smoking has not been shown to be a risk factor for bronchiolitis obliterans, our findings are inconsistent with claims that diacetyl and/or 2,3-pentanedione exposure are risk factors for this disease."

To chime in on this I smoked a pack to a pack and a half a day for 20 years. The amount of diacetyl and AP in mainstream cigarette smoke is quite high compared to industrial exposures. There has been precisely zero cases of bronchiolitis obliterans attributed to smoking and before anyone says "it's under diagnosed or diagnosed as something else, " bronchiolitis obliterans is a very specific kind of constrictive airway disease that would show up with x-rays or biopsy. Surely to my layman's mind, some doctor would have caught it and it would have made a paper but there is not one I can find on the interwebs. It think it's alot of hype and fear mongering for various reasons, not the least of which is people trying to cut the competition's throat.

From the NIH:
"We found that diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione exposures from cigarette smoking far exceed occupational exposures for most food/flavoring workers who smoke. This suggests that previous claims of a significant exposure-response relationship between diacetyl inhalation and respiratory disease in food/flavoring workers were confounded, because none of the investigations considered or quantified the non-occupational diacetyl exposure from cigarette smoke, yet all of the cohorts evaluated had considerable smoking histories. Further, because smoking has not been shown to be a risk factor for bronchiolitis obliterans, our findings are inconsistent with claims that diacetyl and/or 2,3-pentanedione exposure are risk factors for this disease."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24635357

I do however support labeling and transparency by flavor manufacturers and juice makers so consumers can make informed decisions. I for one will keep vaping my D/AP flavors a and the occasional store-bought juice in DIY in moderation until further solid research comes out proving otherwise.

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[Tcar]

All of it is suggestive. There is no hard empirical data on either side of the argument at this point. The broscience that infests vaping is often ridiculous. If it isn't dikeytones killing us, it's caramel coloring, kanthal, nickel...and one time on Facebook, fucking salt.

Take you pick of the "scandals of the month." All the shrill cries for attention on social media and the Internet but hardly any one supporting real third party research, vape advocacy, or anything else meaningful.

It's (this thread and seemingly the entire dikeytone thing) coming down to people who have to be right to some random person on the Internet. I mean does anyone but me not see the conflict of interest in one juice seller (such as vaporshark, who sells their own line of DI/AP free juice) running around and testing the competition's juice? No, no commercial angle there. All altruistic impulses I am sure.

Take ten seconds and say "fuck man, at least I am better off than when I was smoking cigarettes."

Look through and READ the list of ingredients below that are allowed in cigarettes and tell me that you wouldn't rather vape a tank the most AP filled 5P or SB then take a hit off a cigarette. . . Keep in mind these obnoxious things, which I was addicted to for 20 years, take 40 to 50 years to kill you. So you really think a little diacetyl and AP is going to do worse when it's already in cigarettes, plus another 4k of chemicals? Where are the smokers with bronchiolitis obliterans?

There is 95% less harm in vaping than smoking according to Dr F. I'll live with that level of risk. Sorry that the remaining 5% exists. If you truly vape zero then perhaps you should quit and eliminate that remaining 5% if the idea of unknown risks bother you.

Do you really think, at this stage, with so much contradictory information from scientists that you or any other layperson has anything more than an opinion. Even Dr F, an MD, is a cardiologist not a toxicologist or epidemiologist. Him and everyone else to include you and me has opinions at this point. Nothing more, nothing less.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_additives_in_cigarettes

Now, am I for ingredient disclosure by flavor manufacturers and juice makers? Yes. Am I for chicken little sky is falling panic? No.

VAPERS! I swear. Like a bunch of organic whole food gluten-free vegans, worried about me eating my fucking steak.


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[RobbieR]

Here is a link to an article on the CDC's website about Diacetyl and food flavorings. It was written by a panel of "Experts", including respiratory doctors and one engineer. Again the heart of the article is about workplace exposure but the quote below relates to consumers of products with Diacetyl.

http://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-blog/2008/11/10/diacetyl/

"Currently, even though there is little to suggest significant risk to normal consumers, a sensible precautionary approach is appropriate. Consumers could take simple precautions to minimize the amount of diacetyl and other chemicals that they breathe. Cooking or popping of products containing diacetyl and other butter flavoring chemicals should be done in a food preparation area with adequate exhaust ventilation. Good ventilation will help to dilute and remove vapors. In the case of microwave popcorn, the popped bags should be allowed to cool before they are opened, which will also decrease exposure to vapors"

The quote is from the panels comments below the article.

If these guys recommend you avoid inhaling diacetyl vapor when making microwave popcorn or cooking with it I am pretty sure they would tell you not to inhale it from an e-cigarette too. I would love to have some sort of comparison between how much diacetyl is in the vapor of one bag of popcorn compared to a bottle of e-juice that is considered to have high levels of diacetly. Maybe there is 1000 X more in the popcorn, maybe not? I don't know.

 

[Time]

I am pretty sure they would tell you not to inhale it from an e-cigarette too.

I am pretty sure that if you asked them they would recommend that you not inhale anything from an e-cigarete.

 

[RobbieR]

I am pretty sure that if you asked them they would recommend that you not inhale anything from an e-cigarete.

Very true.

 

[Tcar]

I am pretty sure that if you asked them they would recommend that you not inhale anything from an e-cigarete.

^this.

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[Gratefulvapes]

being the dumbass that you are ,you should look a litle further,you'd find i am a 0mg'er now

try again ,but in all honesty,the water angle is incredibly stupid

i sure hope 5 pawns is paying you good for this pathetic attempt at "damage control" even tho it is no avail

First off, I have nothing to do with 5 pawns. 5 pawns was the reason I started this thread, however in no way am I endorsed or being paid by them. Our shop is in north carolina. I can't vouch for the others that joined in on this forum but this was not an attempt to defend 5 pawns. As far as I know 5 pawns test at .25% AP this is a beyond unexceptable limit for me. I our lab our limit is 13ppm which is no easy task to hit every time. I spend a shit ton of effort to make the stuff diacetyl free and ap free. We threw out tons of extracts that we later found out contained these indredients. My only goal is to educate people on the other side of the argument and quell some of the anxieties this has created toward e-cigs in general.

summary: diacetyl isn't safe IMO (just that an opinion), however there is no reason to keep throwing companies under the bus. It isn't proven just theories, and from what I know of diacetyl in traditional cigs there is very little concern with liquid that doesn't contain more than 350ppm (The average amount found in traditional cigs), my only point was to start a talk were people have a different side as these conversations are all but nonexistent. If you don't agree thats fine, at least listen so that people want to listen to you.

 

[Thunderball]

I dont know much about much but I do know that if I vape a juice with Diacetyl in it, I get a hoarse throat within 8 hours or so. I just cant vape Diacetyl custards, creams, butter or pastry flavors.
That stuff cant be good for you.
Or at least not me.

 

[Gratefulvapes]

I dont know much about much but I do know that if I vape a juice with Diacetyl in it, I get a hoarse throat within 8 hours or so. I just cant vape Diacetyl custards, creams, butter or pastry flavors.
That stuff cant be good for you.
Or at least not me.

Most likely a reaction to the ingredients that are in your eliquid (excluding diacetyl and ap) Most if not all people who get popcorn lung have no signs of symptoms until it is terminal, it is that very fact that caused this whole discussion in the industry in the first place. Irreversable lung damage with little to no indication of being sick. Sounds Scary huh...

 

[Pauly Walnuts]

DUMBASS !!!

 

[Tcar]

DUMBASS !!!

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com

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[Tcar]

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

 

[Pauly Walnuts]

 

[Pauly Walnuts]

 

[Time]

DUMBASS !!!

LOL. You're the VU equivalent of this guy:

For future posting, if you plan to continue insulting people's intelligence, maybe you should learn to spell the words first, DUMB ASS.

 

[Tcar]

Dumb ass is not in Websters dictionary DUMBASS

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[Pauly Walnuts]

 

[Saddletramp1200]

I mix my own juice, I know exactly what is in it. If I want to put Wolverine piss in it, it's My choice. If you vape juice & don't know what it contains, it's Your choice.

 

[Satchvai]

I'm still on the fence.

This is from Toxipedia.org. : "The primary symptoms associated with inhalation of diacetyl are persistent dry cough, shortness of breath, wheezing, phlegm production, fatigue, drowsiness, headache, fever, aches, and nausea. The vapors can also irritate the eyes, skin, nose, and throat and generate pain, burning, redness, rash, and soar throat."

I haven't experienced any of this at any level. In fact, I don't have a cough anymore, my wheeze from smoking for 23 years is gone and except for phlegm production from a recent allergy, that is gone down quite a bit over the last 3 months as well. I vape some DIY custard note juices all day long and at high wattages on a RDA and experience none of the symptoms listed above. I come from a family that owned a Dairy farm. Neither my Grandparents, or Uncle, have had any respiratory disease and all lived, and are living, to ripe old ages. They were exposed to high volumes of Dairy product inhalation for decades with no adverse effects. I know that isn't the same as vaping it but some would have you believe minute amounts of diacetyl inhalation are too much. Not saying there isn't a risk but doing some research on diacetyl outside of the ecig world has caused me to take a more "wait and see before I freak out" approach to the issue while more scientific studies are conducted to determine the actual harm in vaping it.

 

[Saddletramp1200]

I'm still on the fence.

This is from Toxipedia.org. : "The primary symptoms associated with inhalation of diacetyl are persistent dry cough, shortness of breath, wheezing, phlegm production, fatigue, drowsiness, headache, fever, aches, and nausea. The vapors can also irritate the eyes, skin, nose, and throat and generate pain, burning, redness, rash, and soar throat."

I haven't experienced any of this at any level. In fact, I don't have a cough anymore, my wheeze from smoking for 23 years is gone and except for phlegm production from a recent allergy, that is gone down quite a bit over the last 3 months as well. I vape some DIY custard note juices all day long and at high wattages on a RDA and experience none of the symptoms listed above. I come from a family that owned a Dairy farm. Neither my Grandparents, or Uncle, have had any respiratory disease and all lived, and are living, to ripe old ages. They were exposed to high volumes of Dairy product inhalation for decades with no adverse effects. I know that isn't the same as vaping it but some would have you believe minute amounts of diacetyl inhalation are too much. Not saying there isn't a risk but doing some research on diacetyl outside of the ecig world has caused me to take a more "wait and see before I freak out" approach to the issue while more scientific studies are conducted to determine the actual harm in vaping it.

I passed Brown lung Globs every day. Tasted like chicken. Smoking is a habit I avoid. Knew a Man, 3/4 stomach removed. Cancer, was 76 when he moved to Florida. Smoked Camel Roll ups 30 a day. Still alive as far as I know. Your dead when your dead. Just what I figured out.