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EVOLV SUES JOYETECH / WISMEC / ELEAF / ISMOKA OVER THE RX200

OneBadWolf

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I'm a member of the Evolve Early Adopters forum, and I own 2 RXs and 2 DNA200 Realeauxs. I have a really cool Biohazard font on the DNA. The DNA has a larger display. I have spent many hours happily fiddeling with Lightscribe.

Of the two, the DNA is the superiour board. At the end of the day, I use the RX. It is not convienant for my to carry a laptop to adjust my mod. The RX performs very close to as well as the DNA. If it didn't, it would not outsell the DNA by more than 20 to 1, and Evolve would not be sueing.

As to the issue of quality VS quantity, sometimes quantity has a quality all of its own. You are not the first Evolve snob I have encountered. You may believe that the DNA200 is worth nearly 4X the price of the RX, but of those who own both, you are in the minority. If I had to replace my mods, they would all be RXs. The Evolve just is not better enough in my opinion to justify the extra cost.
 

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I'm a member of the Evolve Early Adopters forum, and I own 2 RXs and 2 DNA200 Realeauxs. I have a really cool Biohazard font on the DNA. The DNA has a larger display. I have spent many hours happily fiddeling with Lightscribe.

Of the two, the DNA is the superiour board. At the end of the day, I use the RX. It is not convienant for my to carry a laptop to adjust my mod. The RX performs very close to as well as the DNA. If it didn't, it would not outsell the DNA by more than 20 to 1, and Evolve would not be sueing.

As to the issue of quality VS quantity, sometimes quantity has a quality all of its own. You are not the first Evolve snob I have encountered. You may believe that the DNA200 is worth nearly 4X the price of the RX, but of those who own both, you are in the minority. If I had to replace my mods, they would all be RXs. The Evolve just is not better enough in my opinion to justify the extra cost.
really I see at as individual thing. I don't own either of the twins, so maybe I see it different.
I own 3 dna200's, just none that were made by joyetech.
I also own an istick tc100- which I believe is the same board as the rx200.
here's my take between the two-
evolve is great for those of us that like to fiddle fuck and fine tune the vape
the other is great if you want a grab and go

that's about it really in my mind, delving deaper the the dna does offer more.

is it worth th e extra money? to me it was, I like them. I also prefer my falcon coastal rod over an ugly stick, and my lumia 950 over my co-workers 640. I also still wouldn't want a three battery mod either, so the realoux in either form isn't something that would fit my needs. point I'm making is price of the board is really immaterial.
- I will say, I'm glad they got that screen issue fixed, because mailing 200 mods all over the country SUCKED!
 
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JERUS

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really I see at as individual thing. I don't own either of the twins, so maybe I see it different.
I own 3 dna200's, just none that were made by joyetech.
I also own an istick tc100- which I believe is the same board as the rx200.
here's my take between the two-
evolve is great for those of us that like to fiddle fuck and fine tune the vape
the other is great if you want a grab and go

that's about it really in my mind, delving deaper the the dna does offer more.

is it worth th e extra money? to me it was, I like them. I also prefer my falcon coastal rod over an ugly stick, and my lumia 950 over my co-workers 640. I also still wouldn't want a three battery mod either, so the realoux in either form isn't something that would fit my needs. point I'm making is price of the board is really immaterial.
- I will say, I'm glad they got that screen issue fixed, because mailing 200 mods all over the country SUCKED!
Yup yup yup. I don't use TC, I don't really do much of anything on the screens just set it to fit my build then ignore it until I fiddle with the build again. I mainly just want the protection elements of a regulated mod as they can keep me out of trouble and the variable wattage can make things easier. So what would I get from a DNA mod? A little faster firing? ehh not really something I'm worried about either. I respect that it's technically better, but for me personally I'd be spending a lot of money for features I don't care about. I see it the same as a Rolex, sure it's fancy and I want one for that, but I'd never buy one because the clock on my cellphone provides the only feature I'd use from it. (hell I'd be scared to wear a Rolex, i'd scratch the shit out of it the first day)
 

BigNasty

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The difference between dancing with the devil and spitting on your hand, and lubing yourself up for a fucking are two entirely different things.
Evolve did the spit on the hand route and instead of just waiting for it to ease on in there they grabbed both cheeks spread wide and bent over... with a sign saying China fuck me here! on their ass in lipstick.
 

Whiskey

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The Cromwell

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Point is you can buy a Casio for 1/500 the price of a Rolex. One is nicer, works smoother, and perfect in every way.

One is a Casio.

An RX is one fourth the mod for one third the price.

I own both RX sits on the shelf after I got the dna200 version.


Allow me to outline the difference for you and all the other reviewers on YouTube out there that keep repeating this as gospel
Here we go: faster response when firing, higher quality USB port, softer touch on buttons, smoother hit (by a tiny margin I will admit) waaaay more accurate temp control, better 510, nicer screen, and finally a software interface that allows customizations of vape profiles, preheat punch, screen layouts, tests on batteries, and firmware updates a plenty.

Was that a huge block of text? That's because there is a big difference.

And let me say that the RX is an amazing budget mod. Its rips and battery life is great. Good freaking mod NOT A DNA!
And not cry a bit when I break or lose the Casio.
 

OneBadWolf

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Very shortly, there will be a software interface for the RX. The pic in my first post in this thread is a custom firmware, reverse engineered from the RX firmwares. As in most computer related things, I believe an open source interface is going to be the answer.

When Smok put out the POS M80, there were petitions submitted to Smok to repent for their sins and make the source code public. Of course, Smok didn't.

My wireless router is running dd-twrt. It is an open source firmware for my Linksys. It allows me to increase the power by 300%, has much better encryption, logging and admin options and allows me to use the router as a network adapter, or wireless repeater. Options Linksys never incorporated in the hardware.

The same thing happening with mods is inevitable.

As far as the temp control being "more accurate" what do you mean by that? How do you know? Lightscribe?

The only way to tell is to connect both units to a scope with identical hardware, and compare. I doubt that most DNA200 users would be able to tell the difference. Like the audiophile crowd obcessed with specs, placebo is a real factor. A blind test would be interesting,

Using the Rolex /Casio example, my G Shock is more accurate than a Rolex, more durable than a Rolex and as RC pointed out, if it ever was lost, much easier to replace. Also, Rolex didnot partner with Casio to supply movements in Casio watches, then attempt to sue Casio for selling watches with Casio cases and Casio movements.

Will my G Shock impress the ladies at the cocktail bar? Probably not. That is not why I bought it. I use it to tell time accurately, and not for any asthetic value.

I'm not knocking Evolve per se, if they wish to cater to the audiophile/Rolex/Provari crowd thats fine. But to claim they are the inventors of variable wattage is ridiculous. Power converters have been around a long time. Evolve did not invent them.
 
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TC on dna200 is accurate in the way that you can set different temps and the mod will regulate itself to try to hit that temp. Whereas the RX and all the other Chinese mods far as I know only use TC as a cutoff point. Instead of sampling and regulating voltage and temp and adjusting it simply cuts on and off.

As for it outsold the DNA so it's better. Ford outsells Ferrari . don't see your point.

I get the idea of having the RX as a throw away so if scratched or lost no biggie.

To each his own. I prefer to buy nice shit and care for it and not lose it. Just saying the comparison is silly.

As for the 510 you may be right I just know I had issues with the RX version but not my DNA .



OK tho all the arguing what's better aside. There is no value in protecting innovation? I really enjoy seeing all the diff mods/attys people have come up with don't you guys? Don't you think it's nice to protect those people so they can continue to make cool shit?
 

Jim_MDP

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I'm somewhat on the fence over how I want this to shake out (plus... actual facts are still scarce at this point), but I know I wish it weren't being handled through the courts.

Point is you can buy a Casio for 1/500 the price of a Rolex. One is nicer, works smoother, and perfect in every way.
One is a Casio.
An RX is one fourth the mod for one third the price.

I'd say the RX is 3/4 the mod at 1/4 the price.
But the Devil's in the details, and those details live in that last 25%.
Nor do I overly begrudge their price tag (not too much anyway).
That $160 is on par with SXs and others (I presume Dicodes are quite a bit higher still).

But...
Do you think Casio sales hurt Rolex? No?

Do you agree with Evolv that RX sales hurt Evolve?
Or "confuse" potential customers?

The RX board is not a clone, just a vanilla 200w mod with JTech's new bells and whistles. Nothing remotely comparable to the customizability, or performance, of the DNA.

And the Reuleaux enclosure is the IP of Wismec/JayBo & JTech.
Barring a contract clause (could there be?)... they can do whatever the hell they want with it.
 

OneBadWolf

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There is no value in protecting innovation?

Evolve did not innovate variable wattage. As I wrote earlier, who does Evolve pay royaltys to for using the 510? or even the concept of the electronic vaporiser itself? They have availed themselves of others ideas, and others inventions, stood on the shoulders of giants as it were and simply elaborated on those to some degree. Their contribution is minor in compairison to the contribution to vaping that the Chinese have made.

As per your own example, Rolex has not sued Casio. Evolve is attempting to use the courts and FDA regulation to secure their place in the market, instead of supply and demand determing it. I consider that reprehensible.

Wisemec designed their own board, the same as Yihi, Sig, Smok, IPV and others. It is not a clone of the DNA, If Evolve had wished to compete in the value for dollar market, they could of, for that matter still can. Instead of competition, they are attempting to use litigation, and regulation. I find that contemptable.

If Evolve does not abandon their claim, I will never buy another product they make.
 
I think it's probably a thorn in their side that the same enclosure put their board in such a side by side .

I think grimm and others saying get the RX hurt them allot.

I don't think the RX is hurting their sales so much as the Chinese have just gotten allot better at making mods when evolv was so far ahead for so long.

But I think pattent law has its place . and as you said we will see when more details come out as to why exactly they are pursuing this.
 

AndriaD

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If Evolve had wished to compete in the value for dollar market, they could of, for that matter still can. Instead of competition, they are attempting to use litigation, and regulation. I find that contemptable.

And is this not PRECISELY the avenue that BT is taking, with regard to the 'closed system' type of vaporizer that they wish to market? And do we not all despise them for that? I personally don't find anything objectionable about competition, *if they compete on level terms* -- but trying to secure an advantage by attempting to sway courts or regulatory agencies is just plain DIRTY POOL. Evolv is playing the same way that BT is trying to, and it's no more clean than BT's maneuvers.

Andria
 

Jim_MDP

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I wouldn't argue with that.

I did flesh it out a little. :p
"But the Devil's in the details, and those details live in that last 25%."

Because the DNA products are superior. By every objective measure.

But it's each users' subjective measure of the value of those advantages that determines whether to buy or not.
Or, specific to the topic... to buy an RX or a DNA Reuleaux.

As I said... I was never confused between the two.
Perhaps some were. I'd keep the pointy things away from those folks. :rolleyes:
 

vuJim

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I've been arguing how Evolve's patent(s) might be invalidated. Now I'll argue the opposite.

Evolve did not innovate variable wattage.
They didn't have to. A patent can also be obtained for applying an existing idea or solution to a new product or process. E.g.: You can be fairly certain that at the time Robert Kearns invented and patented the intermittent windshield wiper system, there already existed other systems that used variably intermittent controls. But Kearns' patent was, ultimately, upheld, because he was the first to apply the concept to automobile windshield wipers.
 

The Cromwell

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TC on dna200 is accurate in the way that you can set different temps and the mod will regulate itself to try to hit that temp. Whereas the RX and all the other Chinese mods far as I know only use TC as a cutoff point. Instead of sampling and regulating voltage and temp and adjusting it simply cuts on and off.

As for it outsold the DNA so it's better. Ford outsells Ferrari . don't see your point.

I get the idea of having the RX as a throw away so if scratched or lost no biggie.

To each his own. I prefer to buy nice shit and care for it and not lose it. Just saying the comparison is silly.

As for the 510 you may be right I just know I had issues with the RX version but not my DNA .



OK tho all the arguing what's better aside. There is no value in protecting innovation? I really enjoy seeing all the diff mods/attys people have come up with don't you guys? Don't you think it's nice to protect those people so they can continue to make cool shit?
Watch some Busardo tc mod reviews.
 

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Watch some Busardo tc mod reviews.
I have to throw this out there.
I don't say this as an offense to busardo: however, he is not the best source of information on temp limiting. He is good for numbers and opinion if you share his(opinion). But; he has had enough misconceptions, and inaacuracies on TC mods, to where I wouldn't call him an authority at all.
 

The Cromwell

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I have to throw this out there.
I don't say this as an offense to busardo: however, he is not the best source of information on temp limiting. He is good for numbers and opinion if you share his(opinion). But; he has had enough misconceptions, and inaacuracies on TC mods, to where I wouldn't call him an authority at all.
He is the only one I know of that takes measurements on a scope and displays them.
Many Chinese mods do regulate the output wattage and just not turn it off after reaching temp.
 

f1r3b1rd

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He is the only one I know of that takes measurements on a scope and displays them.
Many Chinese mods do regulate the output wattage and just not turn it off after reaching temp.

his numbers off the oscope are one thing.. numbers don't lie.

his application of temp control is still not quite there; partially. because he has already decided that its "temperature guessing." In other words he has already decided on it.
pat of it is becauase he tried using a kayfun4 to make tc work on the first few bathces of mods that offered it. The kf4 is the worst rba to try it on. Then he tried using the squape R- the second worst. - and that's when he threw in the towel for a while.

it wasn't until the hurricane that he got it to work.

I guess my point is there is more to tc than hooking up a mod to an oscilloscope, unless the build is done right, its not going to give you the desired results. Granted, he has gotten better; but, I still would not call him an authority on TC. I don't think any of the reviewers are, I take the word of regular users that have been using it since the beginning.
for that matter, I don't tae any of the reviewers as an authotity on much; so,,,
 

The Cromwell

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his numbers off the oscope are one thing.. numbers don't lie.

his application of temp control is still not quite there; partially. because he has already decided that its "temperature guessing." In other words he has already decided on it.
pat of it is becauase he tried using a kayfun4 to make tc work on the first few bathces of mods that offered it. The kf4 is the worst rba to try it on. Then he tried using the squape R- the second worst. - and that's when he threw in the towel for a while.

it wasn't until the hurricane that he got it to work.

I guess my point is there is more to tc than hooking up a mod to an oscilloscope, unless the build is done right, its not going to give you the desired results. Granted, he has gotten better; but, I still would not call him an authority on TC. I don't think any of the reviewers are, I take the word of regular users that have been using it since the beginning.
for that matter, I don't tae any of the reviewers as an authotity on much; so,,,
My only point was that he has shown several Chinese mods that regulate the output wattage according to the temp and just not switch on and off for TC.
As far as TC goes I have no use for it but just my opinion.
I like simple vapes.
 

OneBadWolf

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I dind temperature control indispensible. I use it 90% of the time. To vape the last drop of juice out of my tank that is. The rest of the time, watts mode.

My first TC mod was the X Cube 2. Nearly drove me nuts. I only use stainless, and they were the first to make a TC mod that did SS.

I bought it out of spite for those that squaked endlessly about how TC on stainless was impossible.
 

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Whatever works for you. I just like it simple. Use mechs quite a bit.
And regulated in regular wattage mode.
 

AndriaD

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I dind temperature control indispensible. I use it 90% of the time. To vape the last drop of juice out of my tank that is. The rest of the time, watts mode.

My first TC mod was the X Cube 2. Nearly drove me nuts. I only use stainless, and they were the first to make a TC mod that did SS.

I bought it out of spite for those that squaked endlessly about how TC on stainless was impossible.

When I first got an Achilles, I was opening it every 10 minutes to see if it needed a refill, and I thought, hey, Tc would be great for this. But after close to a year of using Achilles 24/7.... I can tell from the taste when it needs a refill, without getting a dry hit. When I tried TC using Ti wire, there was very little flavor at all, and almost zero TH.... so I sold my Evic VT right away and went back to my Coolfire4's. Still very happy with those and my iPV Minis and my Achilles and Magmas... and never get dry hits.

Andria
 

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Ti sucks. SS is delish in TC. It takes a couple days to learn your preferred settings.
Don't give up on TC.

I'm hoping to be able to find an affordable SX Mini M-class this year, for my 2nd no-smoke-a-versary; I've heard that it's one of the very best for TC -- though I really just like the way it looks. :D If I can get that, I may try it again. But for a 10w tootle puffer... TC just really isn't needed.

Andria
 
You're wrong, on more than one point.
1. Evolv did not manufacture the chip in China. They entered an agreement with Joyetech, to sell them chips for the Reuleaux DNA 200. Joyetech back-engineered the chips, and made their own version, based on the DNA 200. That is clearly theft of intellectual properties.
2. Hana was "destroyed" by making mods that looked great on the outside, but were built like pieces of sh#t on the inside. Everything, including the boards on their DNA 40's, are attached with a hot glue gun. You wonder why your 510 went south? They said you crushed the insulator. But, you broke their hot glue job, instead. This really came to a head when they released the V200. It was made so poorly, that they had a 40% failure rate, and they wouldn't honor their own warranties.
Unlike Hana, Evolv isn't suing everyone who sells RX200 mods. They're suing the sleazebags who ripped them off. What's wrong with that?
 
The output signals are different n the 2 chips.
Reverse engineered?
Joyetech didn't have a chipset that could do what the DNA 200 does, before they entered into an agreement that gave them access to the DNA 200 chipset. They had an agreement to make the Reuleaux DNA 200. They then made a model with their copy of evolv's patented technology, that does the same things evolv holds patents on, and sold it in the US market. Do you think it's okay to infringe on their patents? I said they reverse-engineered the chip-set. I didn't say they successfully cloned all components. If you think that all American patents should be disregarded, and the Chinese should be able to flood the markets with artificially low priced copies, that's your problem. It isn't just USA intellectual properties that the Chinese have targeted. It's everyone's; Mexico, Italy, France, Greece, you name it. It has to stop. Good for Evolv.
 

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Joyetech didn't have a chipset that could do what the DNA 200 does, before they entered into an agreement that gave them access to the DNA 200 chipset. They had an agreement to make the Reuleaux DNA 200. They then made a model with their copy of evolv's patented technology, that does the same things evolv holds patents on, and sold it in the US market. Do you think it's okay to infringe on their patents? I said they reverse-engineered the chip-set. I didn't say they successfully cloned all components. If you think that all American patents should be disregarded, and the Chinese should be able to flood the markets with artificially low priced copies, that's your problem. It isn't just USA intellectual properties that the Chinese have targeted. It's everyone's; Mexico, Italy, France, Greece, you name it. It has to stop. Good for Evolv.
yes but you missed a key piece of information. what caused this was the mass popularity of the dna200 and lack of screens for it that forced the market to make a different version. from my understanding anyway. the rx200 was made to adapt for market demand for a 3 battery device.
 
yes but you missed a key piece of information. what caused this was the mass popularity of the dna200 and lack of screens for it that forced the market to make a different version. from my understanding anyway. the rx200 was made to adapt for market demand for a 3 battery device.
They did have to scramble for a new supplier for screens, to keep up. But, this has nothing to do with the problem.
It is not a question of what Wismec planned to do with the DNA 200, as in, making it a Lithium ion battery mod. Wismec used their access to the DNA 2000 chip, to design a copy that violates patent.
 

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I suppose the court case will decide if they copied the DNA tech or not.
 

lordmage

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True and DNA will have to get a PMTA to sell em here.
but there are ways around that which involve a MacIver reference and duct tape.
Reasonable expectations other wise known as the if we say it is clause. how ever a flash light is a flash light only due to the bulb. other wise it could be a tobacco product. :D follow the money and you will see the truth of the matter.
 

The Cromwell

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but there are ways around that which involve a MacIver reference and duct tape.
Reasonable expectations other wise known as the if we say it is clause. how ever a flash light is a flash light only due to the bulb. other wise it could be a tobacco product. :D follow the money and you will see the truth of the matter.
Not with this chip it is ONLY designed for vaping.
The off the shelf chips used in the older HexOhm mods are ok since they have other uses.
Kinda like a MOSFET, or switch or battery sled.
However chips specifically designed for vaping are for sure under PMTA.
And software updates for them are specifically covered in the regs as well. Each version would technically have to get a new PMTA.
Technically.
 

lordmage

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Not with this chip it is ONLY designed for vaping.
The off the shelf chips used in the older HexOhm mods are ok since they have other uses.
Kinda like a MOSFET, or switch or battery sled.
However chips specifically designed for vaping are for sure under PMTA.
And software updates for them are specifically covered in the regs as well. Each version would technically have to get a new PMTA.
Technically.
it may have been designed for vaping but have you not heard of IBM :D it is a power control chip that could easily be used in other similar power circuit's ie dimmable 200W light bulb comes to mind.
 

OneBadWolf

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Look at the two boards. Not much similarity there. No more than between a Smok and a DNA.
 

The Cromwell

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Ohh the individual chips are ok however the assembled DNA boards with chips and software are tobacco products.

DNA boards are often referred to as chips but they are actually several chips, inductors, capacitors, etc put together in a specific configuration on a circuit board designed for vaping.
I do not think there is any Evolv manufactured chips.
 

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I also don't see much similarity between Joytech's and Evovls. If there is copyright infringement, then all the other mod makers are also in big trouble because there is as much similarity there as with Joytech. I think Joytech is more innovative than evolv. They made a better mod that is more user friendly. Personally I won't buy Evolv products, prices are too jacked for me, reminds me of Apple. Their products don't do anymore than any of the countless others that are 1/3rd of the price. I hope Evolv loses cause I don't think they have a case. If they do win, then they will probably turn into a Rambus like company and start suing everyone who makes a mod cause it was decided they could make more money suing businesses than making a product that everyone else is beating them at.
 
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I am glad that we are all benefiting from lower prices. I own both RX200, and DNA 200 mods. This being said, Joyetech has a lot of explaining to do, in the courtroom. They willfully designed a chip that violates Evolv's patents. Since they have a branch in California, they don't have the benefit of avoiding litigation. As I said before, the Marxist government in China has stolen intellectual properties from every country in the world. And, they get away with it, by hiding behind individuals, who face prosecution, and civil litigation, for their trespasses. We shouldn't cheer for China, and the theft of intellectual properties. But, I do like the drop in prices. :bunny:
 
The main reason Evolv is suing Joyetech, is because they entered into an agreement with Joyetech, to develop the Reuleaux DNA 200. Joyetech then developed their own chip, that has features that were patented by Evolv, and released the same Reuleaux model, with their chip.
Joyetech then dropped the prices on their mods, to bury Evolv. Same as they do to everyone, in every market, in every country they have done business with.
If China can successfully put Evolv out of business, do you think their prices will stay this low? You're kidding yourself, if you think they will.
That is why I am cheering for Evolv. Yeah, they charged too much for their goods. But, that doesn't mean they aren't valuable, to us all.
Except, maybe you, Robert Cromwell. You don't use Temperature Control mods. So, why the strong opinion?
 

The Cromwell

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The main reason Evolv is suing Joyetech, is because they entered into an agreement with Joyetech, to develop the Reuleaux DNA 200. Joyetech then developed their own chip, that has features that were patented by Evolv, and released the same Reuleaux model, with their chip.
Joyetech then dropped the prices on their mods, to bury Evolv. Same as they do to everyone, in every market, in every country they have done business with.
If China can successfully put Evolv out of business, do you think their prices will stay this low? You're kidding yourself, if you think they will.
That is why I am cheering for Evolv. Yeah, they charged too much for their goods. But, that doesn't mean they aren't valuable, to us all.
Except, maybe you, Robert Cromwell. You don't use Temperature Control mods. So, why the strong opinion?
I do use TC.
Vaping right now in SS TC squonking on a Disguiser mod.
TC is good for drippers and squonkers. But have no use for it for tanks.

And I have no strong opinion on it.
The RX chip does not appear to be a Evolv clone to me, but the courts can decide.

The only Evolve chipset that interests me is the DNA60.
I have no use for anything over 100 watts at the most and usually vape under 50 watts.
And do not like the DNA75. Output voltage too low for me.

I do have a strong opinion on the DNA chipsets/software falling under the FDA regs though. Read that part of them a few times.
 
I don't vape over 60 watts, either. I like the DNA 200, because it has "headroom" at lower settings. In other words, it isn't pushed to the upper limits of its power, when vaping at lower wattage settings.
I might buy a DNA 60 chip, to put in a DNA 40. But, I'm more likely to spend the really big bucks, and buy a German made Dicodes tc mod.
Dicodes rules.
 

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