Curly, my apologies for the bad info on that one. Seems I was confusing the 2% with the amount of diacetyl in the flavoring.
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Huck, I'm sure I wrote 2% standalone somewhere and you remembered right. IMO it's much better used as an ingredient at lower percent.
CurlyxCracker
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No need to apologize!
"Why I oughta"...... (in the voice of Moe of the three stooges)
(this sure proves diacetyl isn't necessary for buttery flavor)
HIC's Almond Roca Butter Cookies
(rich butter cookies with browned edges, toffee, chocolate, and toasted almonds; a very smooth vape)
1.5% FA Cookie
1% FA Cocoa
0.5% FA Chocolate (OR just use an extra 0.5% FA Cocoa for darker chocolate flavor)
0.5% FA Butterscotch
0.5% FA Caramel
0.5% FA Marzipan (OR 0.5% FA Nut Mix OR 1% FA Walnut) *
0.5% TFA Brown Sugar Extra
* Marzipan is the richest, sweetest nut flavor, and it's ideal here. Nut Mix and Walnut also work but aren't as rich (and that's not really Almond Roca). Don't use Hazelnut, or you'll get a weird, peanut-buttery flavor. Almond is too bright and not rich enough for toffee.
Anyone who followed along with my acetyl pyrazine experiments will see why this comes out so buttery and rich. The AP in Cookie with the almond flavor in Marzipan help make this taste buttery. Brown Sugar Extra toasts the edges, and it combines with Marzipan to make a 'toasted' almond flavor. We already know AP does great things to Butterscotch, Caramel, Chocolate, and Cocoa - here it hits them all at once. You really won't believe there's no diacetyl!
Adding 0.5% Coconut is even tastier to me, but it doesn't taste as much like those Roca candies.
Adding 0.5% Espresso is an excellent Starbucks-y flavor (with or without the Coconut).
Shake it, let it sit overnight, shake again! It gets richer and smoother after sitting a while.
HIC's Almond Roca Butter Cookies
(rich butter cookies with browned edges, toffee, chocolate, and toasted almonds; a very smooth vape)
1.5% FA Cookie
1% FA Cocoa
0.5% FA Chocolate (OR just use an extra 0.5% FA Cocoa for darker chocolate flavor)
0.5% FA Butterscotch
0.5% FA Caramel
0.5% FA Marzipan (OR 0.5% FA Nut Mix OR 1% FA Walnut) *
0.5% TFA Brown Sugar Extra
* Marzipan is the richest, sweetest nut flavor, and it's ideal here. Nut Mix and Walnut also work but aren't as rich (and that's not really Almond Roca). Don't use Hazelnut, or you'll get a weird, peanut-buttery flavor. Almond is too bright and not rich enough for toffee.
Anyone who followed along with my acetyl pyrazine experiments will see why this comes out so buttery and rich. The AP in Cookie with the almond flavor in Marzipan help make this taste buttery. Brown Sugar Extra toasts the edges, and it combines with Marzipan to make a 'toasted' almond flavor. We already know AP does great things to Butterscotch, Caramel, Chocolate, and Cocoa - here it hits them all at once. You really won't believe there's no diacetyl!
Adding 0.5% Coconut is even tastier to me, but it doesn't taste as much like those Roca candies.
Adding 0.5% Espresso is an excellent Starbucks-y flavor (with or without the Coconut).
Shake it, let it sit overnight, shake again! It gets richer and smoother after sitting a while.
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wllmc
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just mixed this up. smells awesome. thanks for sharing HIC !!!!!!
wllmc
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UPDATE>>>>>>> ( you have to use cool music in your head when you read that) I have some biscochitos that has been sitting around since 6/1/14 so basically 2 months. this is even better than before. so rounded out. it taste exactly like biscochitos should. man I am impressed with myself. lol.
This sounds awesome, and I even have all the flavors for once! Thanks HIC . . . will try this one very soon
skagit
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I got a 10ml bottle of Pandoro. But still don't have a big enough pair to try it. But a chocolate cake?
I'm all over this
READ HIC'S DISCLAIMER
Strawberry Shortcake
5% FA Strawberry
2% FA Fresh Cream
1% FA Pandoro
I'm all over this
READ HIC'S DISCLAIMER
Strawberry Shortcake
5% FA Strawberry
2% FA Fresh Cream
1% FA Pandoro
I understand your trepidation, Skagit - I know what you mean. I'm sure not going to try to talk you into it. The primary reason I originally tried FA was avoid that stuff! So I really hesitate to post recipes with FA's 'other' flavorings.
On the other hand, if you've ever vaped custard, caramel, butterscotch or ice cream flavors of other brands (especially Capella and Flavor West), you were vaping more diacetyl/subs than with FA Pandoro - especially Pandoro at 0.25-1%. For example, IIRC, FW Butterscotch measured 8% diacetyl in an independent lab test, and most people use far more than 1% of that flavoring when vaping.
Then on the other hand (have I run out of hands yet, lol?) I see so many raves about other brands' flavorings that are known to contain diacetyl/subs, I really have to bite my knuckles to avoid mentioning when FA's 'other' flavorings are even better and have lower levels of custard notes.
It's up to each individual to decide what they're willing to vape, but I don't want to be an 'enabler' by raving too loudly or posting too many recipes with ingredients many of us want to avoid. Maybe there should be a separate thread, 'mixing for people who vape custard notes' or 'throw a little butter in yer tank'. lol! Meanwhile, I'll just continue sitting on my hands as much as possible when I know a Kitchen Magic flavor would do the trick. Although it's frustrating, it's also fun trying to discover flavor tricks that don't require custard notes.
There's something almost magical that happens at about 2 months
I've mixed some tobaccos that really weren't very good(most of which were heavy on the Desert Ship), but after about 2 months... usually with only a few drops left... it's like, OMG!
CurlyxCracker
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Where would I find all this information about the different manufacturers and the percentage of diacetyl and subs in them?
CurlyxCracker
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Does the taste of desert ship get better? Really disliked it when I first mixed it. Kinda scared to revisitThere's something almost magical that happens at about 2 months
CurlyxCracker
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Maybe
It's not easy! When I find info from a reliable source, I just add that to my flavors spreadsheet. I don't have a list of links. FA no longer provides the info on their website, but you can find screen shots and references to the percents they used to list from 2010-2011, when they first started reformulating their flavorings. I linked to a few of those sources over on ecf. Just FYI, the last percentage of diacetyl FA listed for a few flavors: Croissant 0.074%, Malt 0.01%, Butter 1.5%, Condensed Milk 0.5%, Yogurt 1.6%, Pandoro 2%, Panettone 2%. (None were ever listed over 2%). Champagne was listed at 0.012%, and only recently reformulated for addition to the e-cig flavorings. So you can see how very little it takes for FA to add that inhalation warning.
TFA's info is on their website, though not all flavors have been tested. http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx For example, scroll down to Vanilla Custard, click 'list' on the far right. Add up the percentages for Acetoin and Acetylpyrazine (sometimes written acetyl pyrazine). That flavor has between 2-20%. They don't list with more precision than that. On that screen, you can click on any ingredient name and see a list of all TFA flavors that use it (then click 'list' for each one to see the percentages). The lowest percentage they show is "<.5%". I suspect they do not test to the thousandth-of-percent as FA does.
Regarding Flavor West, it was a huge blowup earlier this year. Their flavorings said "diacetyl-free" right on the label and website, but a Canadian vendor paid to have an independent lab test FW Caramel Candy, and it was loaded with it. Flavor West then began removing the "diacetyl-free" claim from bottles and some pages on their website. It was discussed a lot over on ecf. Many of their other flavors are highly, highly suspect. I don't remember if/which others were lab tested, but FW has proven it's simply not reputable, IMO.
I don't know if Capellas ever formally stated that they use any diacetyl at all. They say they're removing it from some of their flavors (therefore, it was there until now, right?) They will not release any ingredient info or numbers, period. Far better diplomats than I have tried and failed.
For my own (and partner's and friends') purposes only, I rely on my own nose/stomach. If there's ~ 2% or more diacetyl in a flavoring, I can clearly smell it. Vaping it upsets my stomach; at high enough percentages, I almost get physically ill. I wrote repeatedly on ecf about FW Caramel Candy giving me that reaction before the flavoring was tested. I knew the same about several TFA flavors before their test results were available. That nauseousness hasn't failed me yet - always means there's lots of diacetyl/subs. If it's low enough, I can't tell, so some slip past me. Several of TFA's with custard notes do not give me a reaction at all, but I've never gotten nauseous from one and found it to have no/low custard notes. I have 20 or so Capellas I "know" contain over 2% diacetyl, just from my reaction though. I was using them in coffees for a while, but now even that makes me a little woozy. The diacetyl smell in some is so strong, I smell it even in public, in other vapers' exhaled vapor. Anyway, my nose/stomach have proven reliable for TFA and FA flavorings that have published numbers, so I rely on my senses for others, too. It's totally anecdotal, opinionated evidence, so everyone can feel free to totally ignore this paragraph. My catchphrase online is always "likely contains some custard notes" - means it makes me ill, but without lab tests, I can't guarantee I'm right.
shawski123
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Hi all,
Just a quick one Amaretto Disoranno tried itover the last few days, been trying to get it to a strength i like.
Been using drops straight out of the FA bottles in various amounts of base liquid, small amounts till i got
it right for me. 1 drop of each flavour (4 drops total) in 2ml tried in my dripper not really getting much,
2 drops of each flavour (8 drops total) in 2ml wow mouth explosion with the taste. Finally settled on
the 2 drops of each flavour in 3ml of base liquid and nice very nice.
Just a other quick one not as long as the other lol.
How many drops per ml can you get out of a FA bottle of concentrate so i can put it into a calculator for experimenting
could be dangerous as i have only been using your recipes on here. What would the % be for the above drop amounts, thanks for any help with this. txs.
Just a quick one Amaretto Disoranno tried itover the last few days, been trying to get it to a strength i like.
Been using drops straight out of the FA bottles in various amounts of base liquid, small amounts till i got
it right for me. 1 drop of each flavour (4 drops total) in 2ml tried in my dripper not really getting much,
2 drops of each flavour (8 drops total) in 2ml wow mouth explosion with the taste. Finally settled on
the 2 drops of each flavour in 3ml of base liquid and nice very nice.
Just a other quick one not as long as the other lol.
How many drops per ml can you get out of a FA bottle of concentrate so i can put it into a calculator for experimenting
could be dangerous as i have only been using your recipes on here. What would the % be for the above drop amounts, thanks for any help with this. txs.
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skagit
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I can't remember if it was on the kitchen line when I bought it. I want to try it, and don't at the same time. Worried I might like it. I have only used FA and a few others like koolda and brown sugar extra from TFA. I got into DIY to know what is really in my juice, save some money And make real max VG.
I understand your position HIC on seeing recipes that have custard notes. A red flag pops up in my head when I see them. I understand you not wanting to post recipes containing them.
Like when I first got into DIY. I pmed Wllmc with a 1000 question. He was cool enough to walk me through it and explained the big "3" bads.
Without some willing to share info a lot of noobs may not be informed. Then it is their choice if they want to use them.
I understand your position HIC on seeing recipes that have custard notes. A red flag pops up in my head when I see them. I understand you not wanting to post recipes containing them.
Like when I first got into DIY. I pmed Wllmc with a 1000 question. He was cool enough to walk me through it and explained the big "3" bads.
Without some willing to share info a lot of noobs may not be informed. Then it is their choice if they want to use them.
What exactly do you smell? just any custardy (new word) or buttery type smell or is it chemical?
I'm still somewhat taste/smell dead from all the analogs. working on it
I'm still somewhat taste/smell dead from all the analogs. working on it
Hermit
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About 35 to 40 drops per ml, I think. Which would make it very roughly about 2% of each that you used in the end.
Sounds about right to me, as I usually get around 3-4 drops in .1ml, and I set my drops in Ejuicemeup to 35.
That's average with most standard dropper tops, not the long skinny ones like the Original Inawera bottles.
That said, most of the FA flavors I use 1-3% anyhow.
Harder to use a syringe for smaller test batches with much accuracy, and are probably better off using like 1-4 drops.
Something like:
1 drop = .25%
2 drop = .5%
3 drop = .75%
4 drop = 1%
Just an idea to create some repeatability with recipes.
That's average with most standard dropper tops, not the long skinny ones like the Original Inawera bottles.
That said, most of the FA flavors I use 1-3% anyhow.
Harder to use a syringe for smaller test batches with much accuracy, and are probably better off using like 1-4 drops.
Something like:
1 drop = .25%
2 drop = .5%
3 drop = .75%
4 drop = 1%
Just an idea to create some repeatability with recipes.
I think so
IMO, it's really artificial tasting when first mixed and takes at least 4 weeks to get vapeable. I don't really care for it by itself, it is a unique flavor but not very complex. It goes great in a tobacco blend but can take over if your not careful.Here is a simple recipe, I mix give it ~4hours@150(crockpot) then 6 to 8 weeks -
Desert Fire
1.5% Desert Ship
1% Black Fire
0.5% Cocoa
What exactly do you smell? just any custardy (new word) or buttery type smell or is it chemical?
I'm still somewhat taste/smell dead from all the analogs. working on it
Apparently that characteristic aroma of diacetyl strikes most people as buttery, sweet, and rich. To me it smells, um, very strongly like vomit. sorry....hope you weren't having a snack or anything. I'll skip the description of what I taste when I vape it, because it's even worse.
This method can save some effort and time: http://vapingunderground.com/threads/how-to-mix-small-batches-of-complex-recipes.1980/
Basically, you make a bottle of 'custom' flavoring, then use it as you would any single flavor. I do my favorite recipes like that. Then I can whip up a fresh batch any time using only my nic base (premixed to my preferred nic strength) and one flavoring bottle. I can make it any strength, each time, as little as one tankful at a time.
How many drops you get per bottle depends on the dropper, mostly. You really have to measure a couple to see. The 3ml FA flavorings bottles from PureVapes are about 33 drops per ml, so if you start with 3ml nic base, add 1 drop for 1%, 2 drops for 2%, etc. If you want to be more consistent, yet still use drops, buy a little glass dropper with ml markings. Measure how many drops/ml it makes with flavoring, and use that same dropper for everything. (I say 'glass' because it's easy and quick to clean, though plastic also works fine.)
I have found the same thing with other flavors. (not FA but I have not tried FA tobacco) I have a tobacco I did not like at all and set aside. At 2 months I tried it one last time before dumping it to find I LOVE this juice. 2 months IS a long time to wait but I think it is worth it. I have 2 weeks to go before my latest batch will be ready. Once I start on it I will be mixing another to set up again. Time definitely does wonders for some of these juices.There's something almost magical that happens at about 2 months
Apparently that characteristic aroma of diacetyl strikes most people as buttery, sweet, and rich. To me it smells, um, very strongly like vomit. sorry....hope you weren't having a snack or anything. I'll skip the description of what I taste when I vape it, because it's even worse.
You've described exactly how I taste those! It always amazes me when people rave about a juice and then I taste.............YUCK LOL Someone gave me an empty bottle to use, and I sniffed it before I washed it out - called something that sounded nothing like custard, smelled exactly like Capella V1!
hey y'all...whew...I just got done reading the entire tread, and I am glad i did before it gets too big...and it will I am sure.
I have been crafting my own juices for over a year, been using tfa,fa! one on one and capellas mostly. I make several that are wonderful. the main reason I started mixing was to create an apple flavor....specifically a caramel apple/candy covered apple like you get at a fair or carnival. alas apple is my Eleanor (like in gone in 60 seconds) I can't get the flavor right no mater what I try. so I gave up for a while now and with fall approaching I am determined to get a few mixes down. so I bit the bullet and ordered some flavourart flavors for the first time and don't know why I waited so freaking long....face palm..
I got apple, Fuji, bilberry, watermelon, black cherry, cola, mixed nut, espresso, Vienna cream, cocoa, liquid amber and clove. I have mixed a batch apple, Fuji, watermelon and mixed nut standalone @2.5%. I also mixed the others in different coffee and cola recipes I wrote down at some point.
I dripped them all after a day and I am quite impressed? the Fuji especially...I think I finally found my Eleanor...now I have to perfect it? to me it seems as though the stand alone flavors are missing something. Like FA flavors need something else to make them pop. The Fuji for example taste awesome on inhale...just like the real deal but on exhale I get nothing. So I think I understand why a lot of the FA recipes I see are so complex, each flavor does something perfect but they need partners.
does it sound like my thought process is correct here. I am hoping liquid amber helps this for the time being. anymore advice would be awesome.
I have been crafting my own juices for over a year, been using tfa,fa! one on one and capellas mostly. I make several that are wonderful. the main reason I started mixing was to create an apple flavor....specifically a caramel apple/candy covered apple like you get at a fair or carnival. alas apple is my Eleanor (like in gone in 60 seconds) I can't get the flavor right no mater what I try. so I gave up for a while now and with fall approaching I am determined to get a few mixes down. so I bit the bullet and ordered some flavourart flavors for the first time and don't know why I waited so freaking long....face palm..
I got apple, Fuji, bilberry, watermelon, black cherry, cola, mixed nut, espresso, Vienna cream, cocoa, liquid amber and clove. I have mixed a batch apple, Fuji, watermelon and mixed nut standalone @2.5%. I also mixed the others in different coffee and cola recipes I wrote down at some point.
I dripped them all after a day and I am quite impressed? the Fuji especially...I think I finally found my Eleanor...now I have to perfect it? to me it seems as though the stand alone flavors are missing something. Like FA flavors need something else to make them pop. The Fuji for example taste awesome on inhale...just like the real deal but on exhale I get nothing. So I think I understand why a lot of the FA recipes I see are so complex, each flavor does something perfect but they need partners.
does it sound like my thought process is correct here. I am hoping liquid amber helps this for the time being. anymore advice would be awesome.
wllmc
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hey kalthaxx the fuji is the bomb right ! FA flavors go hand in hand with FA. you can get very complex or very simple with flavor art in my experience. its in my opinion the best flavors out there. with all that love and praise Ill tell you what I like to do with fuji. I add about 1-2% of TFA candy apple. with about 2-3% FA fuji. maybe its all in my head but seems to sweeten it up a little more. if you have that give it a whirl. I taste both those flavors really strong tho already . I love fuji standalone at 1.5 - 2%. maybe the amber would work awesome to tho. I havent used it enough and never with fuji so I cant say for sure but totally worth a shot.
You explained it better than I ever have, right there. I think of FA flavors as raw ingredients. With some other brands' flavorings, it seems different flavors compete for attention, but FA flavors complement one another. At least that's my experience.
Glad you joined us!
Thinking out loud...Flavors you taste mainly on the exhale include Brandy, Anise, Liquid Amber, Coconut, and many others, but those come to mind because I've vaped them the past couple hours. Coconut is the latest-lingering flavor I can think of. Apple on the inhale, coconut exhale...caramel in between? Oh, like a caramel apple rolled in coconut. That could work. Or turn your apple into cider (I have a recipe for that somewhere here) with Brandy and/or Amber and spices, and you can get a parade of flavors. Same with all the apple pie type recipes.
I saw your hard apple cider recipe and plan on including those for my next purchase in a few weeks. you think liquid amber might be a good replacement for the brandy?
I was thinking of trying an apple cider I'm lieu of "hard" cider. but the caramel apple with coconut sounds delicious too. so many possibilities.
also, I have been thinking of a pumpkin type for a fall flavor as well. have you tried any that are worthwhile? so far I have only tasted tfa's and didn't care for it.
I was thinking of trying an apple cider I'm lieu of "hard" cider. but the caramel apple with coconut sounds delicious too. so many possibilities.
also, I have been thinking of a pumpkin type for a fall flavor as well. have you tried any that are worthwhile? so far I have only tasted tfa's and didn't care for it.
That hard cider isn't harsh like the name implies, and it gets very smooth if it sits overnight. But yes - Liquid Amber can stand in for Brandy. It gives a milder effect with apple, and I swear it tastes warmer when vaped...like kids' cider, served warm.
Pumpkin pie is my kryptonite, kalthaxx! I'll try again this fall, but I've never been satisfied with my results or vendor pumpkin pie flavor. The only pumpkin flavor I've mixed with is TFA's, which has custard notes. It's a really accurate flavor match for a can of raw pumpkin, so it should be simple to use. Hopefully I'll figure it out next time.
skagit
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I keep a 50ml bottle of 3.5% Fuji at all times. Good base to add to. And good straight I found a 30ml bottle of MTB freckeled lemonade.(3.5 months old) Added 5mls of Fuji mix. DAMN!!
Won't order anymore MTB but this will go fast. Although MTB has a local store front now.
Won't order anymore MTB but this will go fast. Although MTB has a local store front now.
shawski123
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Thanks
Thanks Hermit Heabob and HIc using your method i find now i like it at 4.5% strengh
Some said that VZ-SC Gourmet Vanilla Spongecake was like the cake part of a Twinkie.
Just got some and mixed it up, drop taste test is very close to CAP NY Cheesecake IMO.
Gotta leave it for a couple days before vape testing.
BTW: Where you guys ordering the Pandero from?
I didn't see it at the normal vape shops I usually order from, like Bull City or EXC.
Thinking most don't sell the Kitchen Magic line, hate to have to order 1 flavor from Italy, lol.
You might be detecting the same 'custard notes' ingredients in both the VZ and Capellas, but those two don't taste very similar to me. IMO, the VZ is sharper, less vanilla, less dairy-type flavor. It does need to sit a while, and it really is a super-concentrate that requires very little. If it still tastes cheesecake-y after it sits a while, take out a little bit to dilute.
My Pandoro came from PureVapes.
@HeadInClouds
Thanks for the Pandero source, didn't think about them, lol.
Yup, the VZ Spongecake I used at 1% to start...
Thanks for the Pandero source, didn't think about them, lol.
Yup, the VZ Spongecake I used at 1% to start...
I did 0.5% and diluted to 0.25% (1% would have made me hurl, just from the 'custard notes')
Wow, lol.
I can attest that 3 drops in 8ml was FAR too much.
it must be the diacetyl that turns me off from several flavors mostly vanillas. I had some cap vanilla custard to make a clone of grants, but OMG the 15% it called for was horrible? I let my friend try it and he said it was awesome and tasted just like grants? I make it for me at 5% and after a few weeks steep I can vape it and it's quite good to me. Now I have to experiment with other flavors with it to see if that's why some flavor profiles taste like crap for me. it would be cool of I have diacetyl detecting taste buds.
Yep, I keep the Custards, Cheesecakes, and Vanillas at 5% or less in my mixes.
I saw the 15% thing too, and made me gag just to think about it, lol.
Sometimes all I need to add is like 1-2% just to soften the sharp notes, maybe more like a seasoning effect I guess.