Is there a God?

[martnargh]

So, in a christian sense, it's best not to teach about god. If you love your children, it's best for them to never be taught.

That doesn't make sense. Why in the world do people need to know about a god that won't punish them, unless they are taught he exists?

The answer to that is in Roman 10... its a short read, if you have time for it. If not, basically like i said you will be judged for what you know as well as what is in your heart.
You can have never heard of god yet possess morals.
If you know something is wrong, but you do it, then naturally you are aware that you are a "wrong doer" (sinner). God knows whats in your heart better than you do.
Even those cultures untouched by modern world have a set of morals, and kneel to a diety, its the same concept.

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[Time]

Have to agree here with the basis of argument. In Christian theology, all will be judged. Ignorance is not an excuse to escape damnation in their rulebook.

That's what I thought.

 

[Douggro]

That's what I thought.

Brought up in a very religious home, converted from sturdy Mormon stock. I know the plays. Not a follower, but I respect those that do - and those that don't.

 

[martnargh]

Have to agree here with the basis of argument. In Christian theology, all will be judged. Ignorance is not an excuse to escape damnation in their rulebook.

All will be judged but not the same. Read Romans 10.

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[Douggro]

All will be judged but not the same. Read Romans 10.

Doesn't nullify my statement. All will be judged.
The measure of the judgement is what you're arguing for.
Which is fine. I understand the basis.
It's a call for the faithful to live and be in the world as an example of the faith they hold.

 

[Douggro]

and so in the end ......for those who don't know God ..enjoy...to those that do know God..God bless you. we each can go our own way.

<tips hat> And a good day to you as well, sir.

 

[pulsevape]

From what I know of the subject, which is limited, a good many of them have/had some sort of belief system based on spirits or a creator-figure.
I believe James Campbell did a lot of work on the shared history of humanity with deities, creation-myth and so on.

l think you mean Joesph Campbell? fucking love him, he is brilliant ...would love to share a case of wine with that guy and just listen to him talk.

 

[ej1024]

There is a GOD..


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[Douggro]

There is no such thing as an answer that should never be questioned.

Or even a question that should never be questioned.

 

[Time]

The answer to that is in Roman 10... its a short read, if you have time for it. If not, basically like i said you will be judged for what you know as well as what is in your heart.
You can have never heard of god yet possess morals.
If you know something is wrong, but you do it, then naturally you are aware that you are a "wrong doer" (sinner). God knows whats in your heart better than you do.
Even those cultures untouched by modern world have a set of morals, and kneel to a diety, its the same concept.

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I guess I read that differently than you did.

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”g]">[g]

The answer to those questions was to preach. To teach them about god. Not that them not knowing about god would save them.

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

This says to me that you must not just say Jesus is Lord, you must also believe Jesus is lord. I don't think, by the belief, that you can be saved unless you believe Jesus is Lord and you cannot belive Jesus is Lord without having been preached to.

But, like I said, maybe I read it different than you. My understanding is that a savage is a savage and will go to hell unless saved(preached to) regardless of ignorance.

 

[Time]

Brought up in a very religious home, converted from sturdy Mormon stock. I know the plays. Not a follower, but I respect those that do - and those that don't.

I grew up Mormon. Sort of. I respect those that believe, but don't mind saying why I don't. It just doesn't add up.

 

[Douggro]

l think you mean Joesph Campbell? fucking love him, he is brilliant ...would love to share a case of wine with that guy and just listen to him talk.

Yes, Joseph Campbell. (James - WTF did that come from?) I've only heard the synopses of some of his work, which was fascinating stuff.
Sadly, he's been dead for many years (d.1987). The case of wine will have to go to another cause.
"..he saw mythological themes that could serve the same life-giving purpose that mythology had once played. Accordingly, Campbell believed the religions of the world to be the various culturally influenced "masks" of the same fundamental, transcendent truths."

 

[pulsevape]

Yes, Joseph Campbell. (James - WTF did that come from?) I've only heard the synopses of some of his work, which was fascinating stuff.
Sadly, he's been dead for many years (d.1987). The case of wine will have to go to another cause.
"..he saw mythological themes that could serve the same life-giving purpose that mythology had once played. Accordingly, Campbell believed the religions of the world to be the various culturally influenced "masks" of the same fundamental, transcendent truths."

Exactlly..whether shamanisim or hinduisim or chistanity he showed how the myths were a roadmap to the human beings journey toward raising their conciousness.

 

[Douggro]

I grew up Mormon. Sort of. I respect those that believe, but don't mind saying why I don't. It just doesn't add up.

And I grew up around a lot of jack-Mormons. Even in the seat of the faith, SLC.
My grandmother, rest her soul, loved to bring in the young men on Mission and debate the differences between the Bible and Book of Mormon with them.

 

[Azriel Mysterious]

So what about people that never learn about god? Tribesmen in South America? The Indians before America was discovered.

Before man was taught what god was, did they all go to hell for their actions? God seems like a dick if people that had no knowledge of him, taught by man or god, and were simply sent to hell because they were never taught.

No, if god existed, we would directly know it. Otherwise, god is a cruel being and deserves to die for withholding pertinent information that caused people to live an eternity in hell.

My view:

YMMV

 

[pulsevape]

I have to say all things aside I am absolutely floored by the incredible ignorance,lack of knowledge and miscoceptions that most of the so called aethist on this thread have of all the worlds major spiritual traditions...it was quite surprising.

 

[Douggro]

Exactlly..whether shamanisim or hinduisim or chistanity he showed how the myths were a roadmap to the human beings journey toward raising their conciousness.

That journey for me started in junior high when we studied the five major religions as part of Social Studies. I've just never made the time to read his (Campbell's) books or watch his videos.

 

[pulsevape]

And I grew up around a lot of jack-Mormons. Even in the seat of the faith, SLC.
My grandmother, rest her soul, loved to bring in the young men on Mission and debate the differences between the Bible and Book of Mormon with them.

I grew up in the southwest and we also had many mormons of varying levels of devotion to their church...I've met many a missionary the ones I've met had a high degree of religous toleraance. and were pretty open minded.

 

[pulsevape]

That journey for me started in junior high when we studied the five major religions as part of Social Studies. I've just never made the time to read his (Campbell's) books or watch his videos.

you will love them...Campbell is a very passionate man by nature, and so his scholarly work is as passionately investigated as this wonderfull love of teaching, he damn near dances when he teaches he just loves the subject he has invested his life in and it's hard not to be drawn into his world.

 

[Douggro]

My view:
View attachment 49312
YMMV

On a philosophical level, though, you have to have the counter to the existence of Heaven. Light or darkness is the absence of the other, without which it would not exist.

 

[Time]

And I grew up around a lot of jack-Mormons. Even in the seat of the faith, SLC.
My grandmother, rest her soul, loved to bring in the young men on Mission and debate the differences between the Bible and Book of Mormon with them.

I'm in their midst still, but the missionaries don't stop by. Or even the Home Teachers. I'm not sure why. Maybe I'm a lost cause.

 

[Douggro]

the ones I've met had a high degree of religous toleraance. and were pretty open minded.

They have to be, and it's part of their training for going on Mission.

 

[Douggro]

I'm in their midst still, but the missionaries don't stop by. Or even the Home Teachers. I'm not sure why. Maybe I'm a lost cause.

There are ways to get blacklisted with them. Trust me. I've done it.

 

[Mythical_OD]

If god made us unable to deny his existance, then we would lose the free will to love and follow him. If you knew, without a doubt, your actions would send you to heaven or hell and you had a grasp of how eternal damnation was, youd be a fool not to kneel before him.
Not having proof, enables us to make this decision freely.

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So just because you believe in God you get a free pass? What kind of god is that? A lifelong sinner can get to heaven because he believes in God, goes to church every week, does confession and penance, and wears a cross, but the good man who helps others, takes care of his family, is faithful to his wife and lives a good life, he goes to hell just because hes skeptical?

Thats not any god I would choose to follow.

I have a arsenal...or did before I lost it in the lake on my last fishing trip...

My newest edition
View attachment 49302

View attachment 49307 View attachment 49305 View attachment 49304

For some of my other peices:
http://vapingunderground.com/threads/gun-talk.173989/#post-841218

Is that what youre gonna tell them when they come to take them away? lol. Youre one of THOSE types I see.

I had a few myself, but had to sell them for cash when I was broke to keep going. Ive been meaning to pick up a couple though. Just the essentials. A pistol, a .22 and a 5.56 or 7.62 (as much as Id like a .300 Blackout, Id rather be able to get cans of surplus ammo for uber cheap.)

 

[Azriel Mysterious]

All will be judged but not the same. Read Romans 10.

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There's a flaw in that though.

The bible was written by man. Man is not infallible. It has also been translated many times (also by man). The Gospels weren't written by people who met Jesus and the earliest one was still almost a century after Jesus' crucifixion (if it happened).
Even the Old Testament doesn't get a pass as Genesis is a compilation of earlier myths and legends and there is no archeological evidence that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt. You'd think that after 40 years wandering in the desert they would leave SOME evidence.

Not to mention it was "compiled" by those in power to justify them. If I recall the first "Christian" bible was compiled by Constantine and he and a group of clergy chose what went in and what didn't. Had to have a justification for Constantine being "in charge".
Things like "The Gospel of Judas" got the chopping block.

I don't understand people that take the bible literally. It isn't like the bible materialised out of thin air. THAT would be evidence for a god!

The bible is no different than any other mythology. Today's gods are tomorrow's myths. (Ra/Odin/Zeus/Mythra etc)

 

[pulsevape]

I'm in their midst still, but the missionaries don't stop by. Or even the Home Teachers. I'm not sure why. Maybe I'm a lost cause.

damn Time everybody treats you that way...fucking baby shaker...that shit gets around...LOL...hell they know if they haven't got you into church by now they ain't gonna.

 

[Time]

There are ways to get blacklisted with them. Trust me. I've done it.

They'd excommunicate me as I was baptized Mormon. That hasn't happened. But, I don't hear from the church. The home teachers may not know where I live.

 

[f1r3b1rd]

reading a passage that originated in another language around 700 years after the events took place can lead to a bit of confusion.
especially when it was translated from greek or Aramaic, to English about during the dark ages and then retranslated to what we see now, which is still dated English.
its not like reading Michael Criton or even shaespear.
growing catholic and in catholic school up until my 2nd year of college, we actually had classes on what was taking place during the times that they wrote about.. granted I'm rusty here and my dates could be askew, but you see the point. I'm not a historian or a theologian, but I understand a little bit. part of faith is acceptance of the things you don't understand.

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”g]">[g]
'good news' is the gospel. they are basically praising those who bough them the teachings of jesus.
The answer to those questions was to preach. To teach them about god. Not that them not knowing about god would save them.

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
this is where catholocism and protestant faiths tend to differ. protestant faiths say that believing is all you need. Catholics say that faith without works is dead. in other words, yes you have to believe but you also have to live your belief, and do good things, to follow your faith. believing alone is not enough.
your point of not being preached to is rather invalid here because part of being a Christian in any way, is to spread the gospel

This says to me that you must not just say Jesus is Lord, you must also believe Jesus is lord. I don't think, by the belief, that you can be saved unless you believe Jesus is Lord and you cannot belive Jesus is Lord without having been preached to.

But, like I said, maybe I read it different than you. My understanding is that a savage is a savage and will go to hell unless saved(preached to) regardless of ignorance.

 

[pulsevape]

They have to be, and it's part of their training for going on Mission.

I'm also surprised by their familiarity with the techings of other religons.

 

[Azriel Mysterious]

Or even a question that should never be questioned.

 

[pulsevape]

They'd excommunicate me as I was baptized Mormon. That hasn't happened. But, I don't hear from the church. The home teachers may not know where I live.

I fucking knew it ...a mormon in the woodpile

 

[Time]

damn Time everybody treats you that way...fucking baby shaker...that shit gets around...LOL...hell they know if they haven't got you into church by now they ain't gonna.

LOL. You have a point.

I was in a church recently though, to pay respects for the dead. But it was in Utah.

 

[Douggro]

They'd excommunicate me as I was baptized Mormon. That hasn't happened. But, I don't hear from the church. The home teachers may not know where I live.

The wife and I were baptized and Sealed by proxy. We found out after our wedding. Not sure who on the other side of the family instigated it, but I have my suspicions.

It does take a lot of work to get off their roster. You got to be a really bad, bad boy to get expunged.

 

[Azriel Mysterious]

Yes, Joseph Campbell. (James - WTF did that come from?) I've only heard the synopses of some of his work, which was fascinating stuff.
Sadly, he's been dead for many years (d.1987). The case of wine will have to go to another cause.
"..he saw mythological themes that could serve the same life-giving purpose that mythology had once played. Accordingly, Campbell believed the religions of the world to be the various culturally influenced "masks" of the same fundamental, transcendent truths."

Maybe you subconsciously though of James Cameron and swapped the first names?

 

[5150sick]

Only things that bugs the shit out of me is that some feel the need to MAKE others believe that they do , to bombard others with it, to condemn others for not believing what and how they do.
.

It pisses me off when people try to force vaping on smokers like it's some kind of new religion / cult.
They will quit smoking if and when they feel like it and the more you force vaping down their throats the more they will grow to despise it.

 

[Time]

I fucking knew it ...a mormon in the woodpile

I had my own set of The Book of Mormon when I was ten. The one with lots of pictures, lol.

 

[pulsevape]

The wife and I were baptized and Sealed by proxy. We found out after our wedding. Not sure who on the other side of the family instigated it, but I have my suspicions.

It does take a lot of work to get off their roster. You got to be a really bad, bad boy to get expunged.

go to church in drag.

 

[pulsevape]

reading a passage that originated in another language around 700 years after the events took place can lead to a bit of confusion.
especially when it was translated from greek or Aramaic, to English about during the dark ages and then retranslated to what we see now, which is still dated English.
its not like reading Michael Criton or even shaespear.
growing catholic and in catholic school up until my 2nd year of college, we actually had classes on what was taking place during the times that they wrote about.. granted I'm rusty here and my dates could be askew, but you see the point. I'm not a historian or a theologian, but I understand a little bit. part of faith is acceptance of the things you don't understand.

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”g]">[g]
'good news' is the gospel. they are basically praising those who bough them the teachings of jesus.
The answer to those questions was to preach. To teach them about god. Not that them not knowing about god would save them.

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
this is where catholocism and protestant faiths tend to differ. protestant faiths say that believing is all you need. Catholics say that faith without works is dead. in other words, yes you have to believe but you also have to live your belief, and do good things, to follow your faith. believing alone is not enough.
your point of not being preached to is rather invalid here because part of being a Christian in any way, is to spread the gospel

This says to me that you must not just say Jesus is Lord, you must also believe Jesus is lord. I don't think, by the belief, that you can be saved unless you believe Jesus is Lord and you cannot belive Jesus is Lord without having been preached to.

But, like I said, maybe I read it different than you. My understanding is that a savage is a savage and will go to hell unless saved(preached to) regardless of ignorance.

Fucking Catholics......the religon you love to hate......LOL..for over a thousand years the church dominated and controled the spiritual life of europe with an iron fist....and yet ...and yet..some of the greatest thinkers and greatest spiritual adepts of europe were in the church....you gotta seperate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[f1r3b1rd]

Fucking Catholics......the religon you love to hate......LOL..

gives me a good excuse for shrimp po-boy on Friday

 

[Azriel Mysterious]

So just because you believe in God you get a free pass? What kind of god is that? A lifelong sinner can get to heaven because he believes in God, goes to church every week, does confession and penance, and wears a cross, but the good man who helps others, takes care of his family, is faithful to his wife and lives a good life, he goes to hell just because hes skeptical?

Thats not any god I would choose to follow.



Is that what youre gonna tell them when they come to take them away? lol. Youre one of THOSE types I see.

I had a few myself, but had to sell them for cash when I was broke to keep going. Ive been meaning to pick up a couple though. Just the essentials. A pistol, a .22 and a 5.56 or 7.62 (as much as Id like a .300 Blackout, Id rather be able to get cans of surplus ammo for uber cheap.)

Yes it is technically a Godwin, but it is apt in this example.

 

[Douggro]

reading a passage that originated in another language around 700 years after the events took place can lead to a bit of confusion.
especially when it was translated from greek or Aramaic, to English about during the dark ages and then retranslated to what we see now, which is still dated English.

Mostly Aramaic. Some is original Greek text. The earliest written record of the gospels of the New Testament didn't appear until around 70 A.D. and most weren't codified for several hundred years. Perhaps you're drawing the 700 year figure in relation to the Council of Nicea? (325 AD)

 

[Douggro]

go to church in drag.

Only if I can rock it like Tim Curry.

 

[Douggro]

Maybe you subconsciously though of James Cameron and swapped the first names?

That actually crossed my mind when trying to figure out my confusion/failure to recollect!

 

[pulsevape]

Mostly Aramaic. Some is original Greek text. The earliest written record of the gospels of the New Testament didn't appear until around 70 A.D. and most weren't codified for several hundred years. Perhaps you're drawing the 700 year figure in relation to the Council of Nicea? (325 AD)

yeah the council of nicea set christanity back a thousand years.

 

[Azriel Mysterious]

gives me a good excuse for shrimp po-boy on Friday

Shrimp is as bad as homosexuality in Leviticus...

Leviticus 11:9-12King James Version (KJV)

9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.

10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.

12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

 

[Douggro]

View attachment 49315

Yes it is technically a Godwin, but it is apt in this example.

I'd like to think God would say "Nice try Adolph. It's not gonna work though. Hell is ready and waiting for you. Buh-bye!"

 

[f1r3b1rd]

jesus.... I'm going bed.
ive had enough negativity for one day

- for the record- shrimp have fins and as ive stated I'm a bad catholic

 

[pulsevape]

That actually crossed my mind when trying to figure out my confusion/failure to recollect!

hey have you read Denish D'souza's book on Christanity?

 

[Douggro]

yeah the council of nicea set christanity back a thousand years.

Puts a hobble on the Bible being the "word of God" when it's contents were decided on by that group.. just sayin'.

 

[Azriel Mysterious]

Only if I can rock it like Tim Curry.

(gotta toss in a Batman reference in this thread)