The Unofficial ENDS Loophole Thread

[CrazyChef]

As much as I am FOR regulation in the vaping industry, the FDA has obviously gome way overboard in their decisions regarding the regulations concerning the the whole of our industry, and their definitions of what constitutes a regulatable ENDS component.

As I mentioned above, I believe there should be reasonable regulations - no sales to minors being my main concern, as well as end user caution statements on the packaging of products that can be dangerous if used improperly (hybrid series mech mods, for example). But... Have they lost their freaking minds?!?!?

At any rate... Most of you already know that I own a custom coil business. According to the FDA, coils (which are, in their simplest form, just springs) are considered part of the ENDS components and are subject to regulation.

This is absurd.

So...

This thread is a place for all who are unjustifiably being regulated by what the FDA considers to be an ENDS component, and what we can do about it.

What are your thoughts, and what have you learned about loopholes that will positively affect our businesses?

 

[Deucesjack]

So, tell me when this government has ever stopped at some regulation of anything? Your whole statement is absurd. It's like wanting to be kind of pregnant. Vapers need to wake up and realize this is about money, greed, poltics, and control. Place the blame for these ridiculous regulations exactly where it belongs, with the Democrats. You can't defeat an enemy if you refuse to identify it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N915A using Tapatalk

 

[CrazyChef]

Seroiusly??? That's NOT what this thread is about. There are PLENTY of threads for regulation discussions and what NEEDS to be done to change them. In the meantime, this thread is for discussions of loopholes, for those of us who WILL BE PUT OUT OF BUSINESS BEFORE THE REGULATIONS ARE AMENDED!

Or would you rather sit up there on your high horse and suck on an ET-S (or worse) atty filled with juice made by the Phillip Morris Company attached to your "new and improved" 175mah battery and discuss what needs to be done when there is nobody left to make what is currently on the market because they were too busy fighting for the cause? We can do BOTH. This is another aspect of what needs to be done NOW.

DO NOT TURN THIS THREAD INTO AN INTERNET PISSING CONTEST!

THIS SHIT IS REAL AND NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED NOW BEFORE 90% OR MORE OF OUR FAVORITE PRODUCTS ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE TO STOP PEOPLE FROM KILLING THEMSELVES WITH CIGARETTES!!!




.

 

[Deucesjack]

You obviously just don't get it. The fact that you actually said you are FOR some regulation proves that. You want to know what the loophole is? Vapers need to pull their head out of their ass and start voting for representatives that are for less government innvolvment in their lives. Until you and every other vaper does this, the government will continue to stick it in your ass. So wake up vapers, time to cross party lines and give up your broken political beliefs.

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[CrazyChef]

Wow.. We can do BOTH. It is not an either/or option. Now please, add something constructive that is ON TOPIC to this thread or put it in your ignored threads list.

 

[Deucesjack]

Np bro I'm done with you because you're just like every other vaper. You think sticking you head in the sand is the answer. Enjoy your loopholes.

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[SteveS45]

Crazy Chef, if I go to a ZERO Nicotine e-Liquid how can the FDA call my MOD/Tank/E-Liquid an END? I asked the FDA that when I called and went on a rant to them.

 

[CrazyChef]

It's on the list. From what I understand, they do what they want because they're being "influenced" my big tobacco and big pharma. Have you looked at the document? It's absolutely ridiculous (almost laughable if it weren't so sad) what they're considering to be a regulatable ENDS component..

 

[SteveS45]

Yes, I have a PDF Copy of the Deeming regulations. I continuously requested an answer to my question while on the phone with the FDA............. How can you classify my Vape as a Tobacco Product and how can it be considered an Electronic Nicotine Dispenser when my e-Liquid does not contain Nicotine? I was told my comments would be passed along to the higher ups and provided call back information and email. Still no call.

 

[outwest]

It is ridiculous what they're trying to do. EcigExpress sells caffeine powder. Since it can be vaped, I guess caffeine is now a tobacco product? *shaking head* What if I only vape caffeine? Does that make my equipment a coffee product or a tobacco product?

 

[SteveS45]

I also asked how can they say that TFN (Tobacco Free Nicotine) is a Tobacco Product when the name itself contradicts their deeming it a Tobacco Product. I sincerely hope that a Judge like the one in New York who declared vaping is not smoking in the MTA case can throw these proposed regulations out with the bathwater.

 

[AlbyKortoona]

Pure Coils Jewelry Shop. No Mr. FDA, these are not for vaping, they are artwork to be displayed or worn. Put a half loop of high gauge on one coil lead, and now it's an earring.

 

[CrazyChef]

So, has anyone discovered anything in the way of loopholes? I was thinking maybe selling coils as "Aromatherapy" products, or something along those lines. The thing is, I need to come up with a way to use them in an aromatherapy type of setting.

I really don't know what to do - that's why I started this thread. I know that if we are no longer able to provided the vaping community with viable products, many vapers will go back to smoking. Personally, I didn't switch to vaping because I hated cigarettes. I quite thoroughly enjoyed smoking. But, I had a pretty major heart attack a few years ago. They told me I died four times between the onset of the attack and the time I got to the hospital. I HAD to quit. If vaping is no longer available as we know it today, then MANY current vapers will go back to smoking. And countless additional lives will be lost in the future due to smokers that would have switched to vaping if it were available as it is right now.

Until we can win this fight, there has GOT to be ways around the current regulations. That's why I started this thread.

 

[CrazyChef]

Pure Coils Jewelry Shop.

It's already in the works...

 

[SteveS45]

Air injected into the air inlet of my Nautilus Mini Turns it into an Air Freshener.

 

[karmakatie]

Since Claptons coils are named after Musician Eric Clapton because they look like guitar strings....you can easily make guitar string necklaces and such. Another idea is a recharable 18650 battery operated VV/VW wax/tart warmer ie aromatherapy

 

[karmakatie]

Variable voltage personal Fan! look it up on amazon!!

 

[SteveS45]

I am looking around right now for an old fish tank air pump so I can convert my Nautilus Mini into an Automatic Fog Machine. Just blowing into the port creates a heck of a cloud!

 

[BigNasty]

MMJ... they said they would not regulate or can mmj devices. Legal in my state btw and will claim it when and if asked.

Are they going to regulate tampons and insist on every woman from 11-50 register for a mfg license since they deem shoving cotton in a hole a mfg of new device?
Sure don;t work that way with cotton application tho.

510 threaded sex toy power modules.
200 watt DildDna box mod.

 

[SteveS45]

 

[AlbyKortoona]

Once again Petner is ahead of the curve...

http://vaporjoe.blogspot.com/search?q=+flashlight

 

[CrazyChef]

Hmmm... Coils as DIY flashlight bulbs maybe?

 

[SteveS45]

Wood burnishing bits, heating elements or maybe MOD used for fuse testers?

 

[BigNasty]

Hmmm... Coils as DIY flashlight bulbs maybe?

Electric portable tinder starters.

Butane less electronic weed igniter.
Screw top flashlight.
Screw top personal pleasure device for assorted sex toys.

Portable personal branding iron.

 

[SteveS45]

Leather burning MOD-ified tool. Variable Voltage and Wattage Modes with Temperature Control.

 

[BigNasty]

Portable small scale fog machine. For actor use only.,

 

[CrazyChef]

Okay, so we've had some fun here, but I'm serious about the loophole issue - and not just for coils. The flashlight idea that @VaporJoe posted is brilliant! It pretty much puts every single mod back into inventory. Now, what about RDAs, RTAs, etc.?

 

[SteveS45]

Non-Nicotine e-Liquid Tank or Atomizer. Not intended for use with Nicotine*

 

[CrazyChef]

It's still considered an ENDS.

 

[SteveS45]

That is what I find seriously problematic. No nicotine is NOT A TOBACCO PRODUCT. NY Courts ruled that e-Cigs are not smoking.

 

[Huckleberried]

NY Courts ruled that e-Cigs are not smoking.

I don't think NY courts trump the FDA.

 

[BigNasty]

Okay, so we've had some fun here, but I'm serious about the loophole issue - and not just for coils. The flashlight idea that @VaporJoe posted is brilliant! It pretty much puts every single mod back into inventory. Now, what about RDAs, RTAs, etc.?

Oxidation cap.

 

[SteveS45]

I don't think NY courts trump the FDA.

Who's side are you on?

A New York court has ruled that, under state law, vapers can’t be charged for violating anti-smoking rules because—as millions of vapers have been repeating for years—vaping isn’t smoking. This is the latest sign of a gradual acceptance by lawmakers and legal systems that the distinction between the two is genuine and significant. In the face of imminent federal regulations, that distinction is paramount to the vaping industry.

“This is going to be a battle fought on many battlefields across the country and everybody is going to have an opinion on it,” said Aaron LoCascio, the CEO of VapeWorld, one of the largest vape distributors in North America. “Even one judge’s decision won’t necessarily be what another judge decides.”

Complete article here:

http://law.justia.com/cases/new-york/other-courts/2016/2016-ny-slip-op-26033.html

 

[BigNasty]

I don't think NY courts trump the FDA.

Actually state laws SHOULD over rule federal bullshit.

 

[Huckleberried]

Actually state laws SHOULD over rule federal bullshit.

Agreed.

 

[AlbyKortoona]

Just guessing here, but I think Huck is on "our" side

 

[SteveS45]

The only way our side is to win is to stand together as one.

 

[AlbyKortoona]

And who couldn't love that little "will you be my daddy?" avatar?

Yes Steve we are up against it, likely to get fucked, money wins....

 

[SteveS45]

If you are giving up before we have begun to fight or accepting defeat already then you will never win.

 

[raymo2u]

So, has anyone discovered anything in the way of loopholes? I was thinking maybe selling coils as "Aromatherapy" products, or something along those lines. The thing is, I need to come up with a way to use them in an aromatherapy type of setting.

I really don't know what to do - that's why I started this thread. I know that if we are no longer able to provided the vaping community with viable products, many vapers will go back to smoking. Personally, I didn't switch to vaping because I hated cigarettes. I quite thoroughly enjoyed smoking. But, I had a pretty major heart attack a few years ago. They told me I died four times between the onset of the attack and the time I got to the hospital. I HAD to quit. If vaping is no longer available as we know it today, then MANY current vapers will go back to smoking. And countless additional lives will be lost in the future due to smokers that would have switched to vaping if it were available as it is right now.

Until we can win this fight, there has GOT to be ways around the current regulations. That's why I started this thread.

Herbal Paraphernalia is a loophole and if its not for Nicotine/Tobacco then they can not regulate it but you'd be buying things that are label for use with herbs....which can be unsettling for many or onlookers but everything can easily just be labeled for use with it and the only issue would be getting the Nic.
Jewelry is another for lengths of wire or coils, food flavoring or aromatherapy or making candies for flavorings, mods are variable flashlights with advanced settings...

 

[SteveS45]

Interesting Ray I decided to do a quick search for those herb vaporizers and came up with a site selling MOD's with this heading. Are they already aiming for loopholes?

Portable vaporizers and vaporizer pens designed for use in aromatherapy and respiratory relief.

 

[BigNasty]

Interesting Ray I decided to do a quick search for those herb vaporizers and came up with a site selling MOD's with this heading. Are they already aiming for loopholes?

Portable vaporizers and vaporizer pens designed for use in aromatherapy and respiratory relief.

Good note since they are most likely in a NON mmj state.

 

[raymo2u]

Interesting Ray I decided to do a quick search for those herb vaporizers and came up with a site selling MOD's with this heading. Are they already aiming for loopholes?

Portable vaporizers and vaporizer pens designed for use in aromatherapy and respiratory relief.

Some sites have been selling like that all along...Some companies have also like Yocan.

 

[JuicyLucy]

Herbal Paraphernalia is a loophole and if its not for Nicotine/Tobacco then they can not regulate it but you'd be buying things that are label for use with herbs....which can be unsettling for many or onlookers but everything can easily just be labeled for use with it and the only issue would be getting the Nic.
Jewelry is another for lengths of wire or coils, food flavoring or aromatherapy or making candies for flavorings, mods are variable flashlights with advanced settings...

The herb angle is only a loop hole if you live in a state where it is not a criminal offense to own or traffic in that kind of paraphernalia

I see marketing vape gear "repurposed" for the other thing as a very risky business decision for an internet based business

If you don't believe me, ask Tommy Chong

 

[CrazyChef]

There was a head shop here in Mass. a few years ago that sold bongs. Every single one of them had a label on it that said "FLOWER VASE".

 

[JuicyLucy]

Okay, so we've had some fun here, but I'm serious about the loophole issue - and not just for coils. The flashlight idea that @VaporJoe posted is brilliant! It pretty much puts every single mod back into inventory. Now, what about RDAs, RTAs, etc.?

From the start, I have seen atomizers as the weak link in all this, period.

 

[Mattp169]

Chef

Have you actually spoken to someone at the FDA and ask them if your coils are regulated with the new deeming. ANd what you will be required to do. IE when you must stop selling them. OR asked if these can used as a REPLACEMENT PART for something sold and marketed in the USA before 2007 do you nee dto do anythibg.

Because IF I understand it
the whateve rit is called K808 style atomizers are grandfathered in.....so you could sell those with no issue. SO if your coils could THEORETICALLY be installed in that atomizer or any atomizer that is grandfathered in could your coils be considered as a replacement part for a grandfathered product and if so would your coils also be grandfathered in even if you were not marketing or selling them in 2007.?

See we can read the damn deeming regs all day long. We need direct answers and explanations from someone at the FDA

 

[raymo2u]

Chef

Have you actually spoken to someone at the FDA and ask them if your coils are regulated with the new deeming. ANd what you will be required to do. IE when you must stop selling them. OR asked if these can used as a REPLACEMENT PART for something sold and marketed in the USA before 2007 do you nee dto do anythibg.

Because IF I understand it
the whateve rit is called K808 style atomizers are grandfathered in.....so you could sell those with no issue. SO if your coils could THEORETICALLY be installed in that atomizer or any atomizer that is grandfathered in could your coils be considered as a replacement part for a grandfathered product and if so would your coils also be grandfathered in even if you were not marketing or selling them in 2007.?

See we can read the damn deeming regs all day long. We need direct answers and explanations from someone at the FDA

Batteries wire and cotton and more should also be grandfathered in but they are going after them also

 

[JuicyLucy]

Batteries wire and cotton and more should also be grandfathered in but they are going after them also

Those things are easily acquired elsewhere so as long as not marketed as vape gear will not be of concern to consumers.

What is really needed is a doohickey or chingaderas to still on atomizers to make them something else that are easy to pull off or on for vaping. Sort of like the flashlight head for mods.

I'd consult an attorney before the appropriate time - but if I was a coil pornographer looking to get into the jewelry business, I'd include a history of your company on the internet and a printed handbill with all purchases.

Should go something like this:

History of Coilporn.com

In the heady days before August 2016, the pornographers here at coilporn.com used to make custom coils for atomizers for the vaping industry. In a bid to keep our company open, we began using our beautifully hand-crafted wires to make jewelry.

Before August 2016, this charm made out of (add whatever name, wire, here) would produce a vape at .01 ohms. Now it's meant for your bracelet.

This beautiful necklace made out of (whatever) made a nice vape at exactly 1 ohm when six times around ....

Just my random thoughts

 

[CrazyChef]

Have you actually spoken to someone at the FDA and ask them if your coils are regulated with the new deeming

They are specifically mentioned in the regs. Numerous times.