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The Unofficial ENDS Loophole Thread

outwest

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It would mean creating a whole new industry, but I can't help but wonder if maybe the caffeinated vape angle would work. Sell a line of low mg caffeine eliquid, market the hardware as being for caffeinated vapes, and sell decaf versions that people can add nicotine to (without suggesting it or mentioning nic). One of the questions, though, is whether that caffeine vapes would fall firmly under the FDAs purview. Other dietary supplements (vitamins you can't overdose on, amino acids, etc) and herbal extracts come to mind as well -- VitaVape.
 

JuicyLucy

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It would mean creating a whole new industry, but I can't help but wonder if maybe the caffeinated vape angle would work. Sell a line of low mg caffeine eliquid, market the hardware as being for caffeinated vapes, and sell decaf versions that people can add nicotine to (without suggesting it or mentioning nic). One of the questions, though, is whether that caffeine vapes would fall firmly under the FDAs purview. Other dietary supplements (vitamins you can't overdose on, amino acids, etc) and herbal extracts come to mind as well -- VitaVape.

I'd just do the same as the coils, but sell it as a skin lotion.

This skin lotion is based on our best selling ejuice: Voop Nation (or whatever)

Same ingredients without the nicotine. Not for vaping but your skin will feel so rejuvenated etc.
 

fq06

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Most all of what we use, rda's, rta's & mods can be used and is used with the liquid "other stuff" and the "other stuff" seems to be exempt from the FDA's iron fist so why not market it and package it as that?
I guess for the big guys that would get sniffed out but for a small coil & hardware shop like yours... why wouldn't that work out?
 

Kevin2112

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Mods at their core are just boxes with batteries and power adjustments. They can power anything with a 510 connection. Flash light, lazer pointer, small fan, cold coffee warmer, electric fire starter for camping, tazer for personal defence, portable electric cigarette lighter,ironic, cell phone charger,etc... I bought all my mods for reasons other than vaping nicotine ,but so far it's all I can use it for until the 510 connection becomes more widely used for other applications.
 

saytar

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I'd just do the same as the coils, but sell it as a skin lotion.

This skin lotion is based on our best selling ejuice: Voop Nation (or whatever)

Same ingredients without the nicotine. Not for vaping but your skin will feel so rejuvenated etc.
Made replacement build decks that would allow insertion of a aromizer deck, but make :upgraded" decks as replacements and some low cost or DIY setups to make real nice coils for "jewelry" and other decorative purposes.......or do as the gun companys do with 80% lowers.....sell replacement deck 80% completed that the end user can finish out with some common tools. Dremel type battery 510 connectors with a screw on drill or grinder head............
Also the flashlight idea's but making them with electronic controls...electrically programmable controls........stick the upgrade software on Chinese or other server's out of greedy hands and jurisdictions.........most know how to flash a mod......

Use the 80% method as until it is finished it is not even useable....................the F"ing Dept of A**** has created themselves a nightmare enforcement issue even though they think they can "handle it" what gov agency of late can handle anything with any degree of efficiency....or organization, REAL organization.......what they have done is FUBAR'd their own agency.....and the taxpayers
 

saytar

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I'm for that,can always use a few more flaslights......it's a start?

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
 

saytar

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Vitamin B12 would work great....easily absorb thrush mucous membranes in mouth and under tongue...

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
 

saytar

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Yep. I just bought one of their 510 flashlight heads just for fun
Here's a good point in line with my thinking......build mods with "flashlight software" installed (or a miniature fan driven atomizer), attach one of these...Bingo intent is a fancy high power flashlight/aromizer.....for real.......

Now since the firmware is upgradable, zip a little trip over to the companies website for some firmware upgrades to "ENHANCE" the world wide functionality/usability of your nice new fancy flashlight......World flashlights and room freshener's, aromatherapy devices and extended battery recharging packs.....

And if you build them right, upgrade and replacement parts could be "multi-functional".....replace LED with coil build assembly, remove fan/heat assembly-replace with similar coil assembly.....and such parts could be manufactured anywhere, by anyone......and if built right, modified by the end user for specific "other purposes".

If shipped, labeled and sold as such, then the argument for intent would be hard to prove......what WE do with our stuff after purchase is OUR business.:idea:

The Chinese need to get busy on this angle and fast....and quit calling them ANYTHING related to vaping.....then many courts and politician's would hard pressed to push banning flashlights and aromatherapy devices by calling the nicotine delivery devices......that would piss off all those do gooder's who enjoy there aromatherapy gear, calling it a nicotine delivery device and essentially banning it would hit home to these useful idiots.

I'm developing methods to incorporate nicotine into bug killing formula's (just cause it smells good won't hurt) for spreading around my yard or on my garden.....:bomb: kills them dead!
 

kross8

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Electric portable tinder starters.

Butane less electronic weed igniter.
Screw top flashlight.
Screw top personal pleasure device for assorted sex toys.

Portable personal branding iron.
i used mine to heat up a drop of solder to drip onto my bmw key fob......you cant just buy a battery,, they want you to buy a new key $170-270
 

inspects

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I totally agree with the flashlight gig, there are so many items we could use flashlights for....cooking, branding, fans, self-defense, batons, tricks, even lights.
 

JuicyLucy

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I saw one the other night that had a built in speaker with a little strobe light for the 510 pin.

Saw another that was like a swiss army vape, it had ports to hook up all kinds of shit, plus the 510 connector.

I think we will see great things mod-wise.

Keeping up the quality of attys that are multi-purpose could be a real issue though
 

saytar

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I saw one the other night that had a built in speaker with a little strobe light for the 510 pin.

Saw another that was like a swiss army vape, it had ports to hook up all kinds of shit, plus the 510 connector.

I think we will see great things mod-wise.

Keeping up the quality of attys that are multi-purpose could be a real issue though

The ones with the removable decks would lend themselves well being used for a totally different purpose than vaping, but would only require disassembly and reassembly with a different screw item.......most of the new RDTA design's would be ideal for quick repurpose, even SMOK made one with a removeable screw in deck (a very weak one).

Some or most of the RTA designs would require a little more "creativity"........most attys would require they either be made in more pieces or with "replacement/upgrade" kits......more expense but is there more than little doubt that now that gov is sticking their nose in that prices will go DOWN?
 

karmakatie

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Hubby came up with a great idea the other night...anyone who remembers the lighters in cars well those were hot coils, make coils like a stovetop and rename them cig/cigar lighters with replaceable lighter coils. Hell the feds rename illegal alliens to immigrants...just play their own game ;)
 

JuicyLucy

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more expense but is there more than little doubt that now that gov is sticking their nose in that prices will go DOWN?

You will have to explain this part to me. Gov. intrusion and sin taxes usually increase the overall price dramatically
 

karmakatie

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Google an image search for Electronic cigarette lighter......it can be done for attys
 

Huckleberried

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The problem I see with that is that it still falls into the tobacco product category.
 

JuicyLucy

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The problem I see with that is that it still falls into the tobacco product category.

Yeah, but in a legal way

If the FDA thinks it can start regulating lighters they've really got their work cut out for them
 

karmakatie

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All you have to do it look at another industry that now call things "water pipes and flower vases" ohhh than there are papers....god forbid the regulate that as there are gonna be alot of little kids who want to make paper arts with a little glue!! And Nicotine is LEGAL but the other is not is most states but all the stuff is sold under other names.
 

saytar

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You will have to explain this part to me. Gov. intrusion and sin taxes usually increase the overall price dramatically
Doubt....................hard to believe prices WON'T go up.....I have NO DOUBT that prices will increase dramatically....I doubted they would go down.

Clear that up for ya? :mooncat:
 

JuicyLucy

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Doubt....................hard to believe prices WON'T go up.....I have NO DOUBT that prices will increase dramatically....I doubted they would go down.

Clear that up for ya?

Yeah, did not compute for me on first and second read, lol
 

saytar

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I was writing with intense sarcasm..............this whole issue has me pissed.........and that happens often when the Gov is involved in anything anymore..............
 

JuicyLucy

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I was writing with intense sarcasm..............this whole issue has me pissed.........and that happens often when the Gov is involved in anything anymore..............

I hear that LOUD AND CLEAR :gaah:
 

saytar

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Me too....when my bank account recovers some.....................shows that SOMEBODY in China is working on the "issue"......at least their noticing that they may stand to lose more than a few billion dollars over this FDA farce.................

And been my experience (knowing a few Chinese) that they hate it when somebody is sticking their hand in their money purse......hope they follow through negating the overreach.................a few hundred millions to some well placed law firms in the U.S. would go a long way in helping maintain their lucrative market......I'm thinking that at least 60% of their revenue on E smoking products comes from the American market................that's a tremendous hit to the pocket.
 

saytar

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Me too....when my bank account recovers some.....................shows that SOMEBODY in China is working on the "issue"......at least their noticing that they may stand to lose more than a few billion dollars over this FDA farce.................

And been my experience (knowing a few Chinese) that they hate it when somebody is sticking their hand in their money purse......hope they follow through negating the overreach.................a few hundred millions to some well placed law firms in the U.S. would go a long way in helping maintain their lucrative market......I'm thinking that at least 60% of their revenue on E smoking products comes from the American market................that's a tremendous hit to the pocket.
Those high power LED's produce some tremendous heat.....maybe design some fancy coils as heat sinks....Use the LED to create the heat for the juice.......

Violia!....................an atomizer that lets you see in the dark!
 

SteveS45

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LED Atomizers? Hmmmm I bet those would last a hell of a long time.

Average life span of a LED is 50,000 hours at 6 to 8 Watts so even half that is still over 10,000 hours at 12 to 16 watts with 24 hour usage. Who is selling these??
 

raymo2u

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LED Atomizers? Hmmmm I bet those would last a hell of a long time.

Average life span of a LED is 50,000 hours at 6 to 8 Watts so even half that is still over 10,000 hours at 12 to 16 watts with 24 hour usage. Who is selling these??
I just posted one at FastTech...link is a few posts up
 

SteveS45

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Yes, I did it is just a flashlight. I am thinking an LED atomizer. LED's do generate a minute amount of heat to start with so should not be hard to up the heat output. Just thinking outside the box here.
 

saytar

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How about an led with a clear ceramic coating, with a horzontal or vertical shape to actually heat the juice..and heat sink the led

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
 

Barbara E.

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I'm not selling eliquid, I'm selling moisturizer...

I found a site outlining uses for vegetable glycerin (http://healthnbodytips.com/glycerin-vegetable-glycerine-uses.html/)

4) Moisturizer : Take about 200 – 250 ml of glycerin in a bowl. Put two tablespoon of fresh lime juice. Mix it well and store it in a glass bottle. Apply it at night before going to bed by using either your fingertips or cotton. Don’t disturb it till it gets soaked.

Another one...

Wash your feet well and apply glycerine on your cracked heels. It works like magic in healing your cracked heels overnight.
 

raymo2u

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I'm not selling eliquid, I'm selling moisturizer...

I found a site outlining uses for vegetable glycerin (http://healthnbodytips.com/glycerin-vegetable-glycerine-uses.html/)

4) Moisturizer : Take about 200 – 250 ml of glycerin in a bowl. Put two tablespoon of fresh lime juice. Mix it well and store it in a glass bottle. Apply it at night before going to bed by using either your fingertips or cotton. Don’t disturb it till it gets soaked.

Another one...

Wash your feet well and apply glycerine on your cracked heels. It works like magic in healing your cracked heels overnight.
Ill be testing something soon that can replace VG/PG and isnt under the regs but has the same crap in it...Ill let you guys in on that very soon.
 

raymo2u

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Is it triacetin? I've got about 250ml of it, but haven't tried it yet.
No its Aqueous Glycerin....its the same thing as VG but has Deionized Water in it, also has a different name and is just a bit more in cost then VG is. Its not listed in the Regs and could be used for a loophole for now.
I havent heard of using Triacetin yet but thats good to keep in the background if it does work out.
 

snails1023

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Okay, so we've had some fun here, but I'm serious about the loophole issue - and not just for coils. The flashlight idea that @VaporJoe posted is brilliant! It pretty much puts every single mod back into inventory. Now, what about RDAs, RTAs, etc.?

Selling them in pieces, bottom , glass, top, and such. Then allowing the customer to screw it all together. I don't think if you sold just the glass , or just the bottom 510 connector seperately they could get you. Key to this is never show the whole thing put together.
 

quittingvegas

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In my area head shops claim the accessories are for tobacco. The way I read the regs they now fall under the deemming items.. Please tell me I'm wrong.

Copied from regs..
Currently, tobacco products unregulated by FDA are widely available and come in many
forms, including cigars, pipe tobacco, waterpipe tobacco, liquids (e-liquids) for ENDS (the most
popular of which are electronic cigarettes, but also include e-hookah, e-cigars, vape pens,
personal vaporizers, and electronic pipes), liquid nicotine that is made or derived from tobacco,
nicotine gels, and certain dissolvable tobacco products (i.e., dissolvable products that do not
currently meet the definition of "smokeless tobacco" in section 900(18) of the FD&C Act (21
U.S.C. 387(18)) because they do not contain cut, ground, powdered, or leaf tobacco and instead
contain nicotine extracted from tobacco). Upon implementation of this final rule, currently
unregulated tobacco products and future products meeting the definition of "tobacco product"
under section 201(rr) (except accessories of newly deemed tobacco products) will be subject to
chapter IX of the FD&C Act.
FDA issued a proposed deeming rule
 

AndriaD

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I personally think it's totally asinine to forbid minors from buying vaping gear, even with nicotine. It keeps them from smoking, just as it does adults, and if they already smoke, then they need the same opportunity as everyone else, to do something less deadly. and nicotine, as used in vaping, is no more dangerous than the caffeine in coffee, tea, redbull, monster, coke, pepsi, mtn dew, etc etc etc... It's just STUPIDLY ASININE to say minors can't have it. They've said that for years about cigarettes, but they still manage to get them. I'd far rather see kids blowing clouds than smoking butts, because it's not too difficult to give up vaping, if you haven't yet established the nicotine/MAOI link in your brain; cigarettes provide that link, and as we ALL know very well, are goddamned hard to get free of.

My personal loophole is [helping out] the teenagers across the street from me. I never want to see them smoking because they couldn't get anything to vape. And yeah, they were all smokers before they were vapers. The law is an ASS.

Andria

ETA: Edited on the advice of a moderator. Nevermind what I'm doing to help them out. ;)
 
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Barbara E.

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Trying to use logic to argue against the FDA's regulations is an exercise in futility. The FDA deliberately made the laws that way and we (vapers) don't have the power or numbers to make them change. I suggest that we use the *illogic* of the regulations to prove their ridiculousness and drag in other players that feel the same way.

*Intent* is the key phrase in the regulations. If anything is intended for use in any form of e-cigarette, it's automatically a 'tobacco product', right? So let's make *everything* a 'tobacco product'.

Let's say I go into my local drug store and buy a package of cotton. I ask to speak to the manager and tell him/her that I intend to use the cotton in my vaporizer which makes it a 'tobacco product'. Then I ask if the drugstore has paid the appropriate state/federal taxes associated with 'tobacco products' and is conforming to all the 'tobacco product' laws. Of course the manager will think I'm crazy but I point out that the FDA set the rules and I am a law-abiding citizen (;)) who only wants to make sure everyone complies with the law. Etc., etc., etc.

Now multiply this by thousands. Maybe CASAA or SFATA can have lawyers send letters to the drugstore pointing out cotton is a potential 'tobacco product' and that the drugstore should be asking their customers how they plan to use the cotton. Maybe point out the applicable state laws they should be following for these products.

I know this is ridiculous - that's the point. But now we'd have drugstores all on our side protesting that cotton is not a 'tobacco product'.

Now carry it further. Grocery stores carry flavorings. WalMart carries VG. Home Depot carries wire and wood (some people make mods from wood). Beauty supply stores carry rayon. The list goes on and on. Heck, anything with a usb port can supply power. I could conceivably go to an auto dealer and say that my husband hates the smell of my vape so I'm buying this car simply to park in the yard and sit in and vape in air-conditioned comfort.

Yes, it's totally off the wall. But 'logic' isn't getting us anywhere because the FDA isn't operating 'logically'. The beauty of this is that we get others (big businesses) on our side protesting the regulations. And it doesn't require lawsuits by vapers or vaping organization - all it requires is concerned citizens (us) expressing our determination that *everyone* abides by the law. ;)

Will this solve every problem? No, but if enough big companies protest, the FDA would be forced to clarify exactly what is and what is not covered by their regulations. *Intent* won't work. They'd probably try to get around the whole mess by saying their laws only apply to anything *marketed* as an e-cig and/or component. And, as we all know, everything we use can be *marketed* as something else. :D
 

VaporJoe

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I'm very torn in this area.. Minors smoke lets face it, that's when we all started... Normally, no one starts smoking in their 20s. So what do we do? allow minors to continue to smoke and get them vaping at 18, or do we give them an alternative? I started when I was 12 years old. Thats 6 full years of getting addicted to smoking before I could legally buy a device. Some would say its up to the parents but most kids wont tell their parents they are smoking. It's a very very strange problem.

On one hand we don't want minors vaping because it looks cool, but on the other we want to get those that are smoking away from it.

Maybe there is some legal middle ground that will happen in the future.
 

JuicyLucy

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I'm very torn in this area.. Minors smoke lets face it, that's when we all started... Normally, no one starts smoking in their 20s. So what do we do? allow minors to continue to smoke and get them vaping at 18, or do we give them an alternative? I started when I was 12 years old. Thats 6 full years of getting addicted to smoking before I could legally buy a device. Some would say its up to the parents but most kids wont tell their parents they are smoking. It's a very very strange problem.

On one hand we don't want minors vaping because it looks cool, but on the other we want to get those that are smoking away from it.

Maybe there is some legal middle ground that will happen in the future.

I'm torn on this too - especially now.

Until the deeming regs, it was not illegal for under18s to vape in many states (like mine) so it was a moot point and a matter of personal principal.

However, the ANTZ, FDA, and uninformed trot out the "protecting children" mantra to prop up justifying the regs as published.

I'm kinda leaning towards "okay" regarding minors just to counter the lure of forbidden fruit and to help those already addicted to tobacco
 

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