Vapers Sue Five Pawns for $5 Million

[Browncoat]

The chickens have come home to roost for Five Pawns.

On Nov. 11, a class action lawsuit was filed against the premium e-liquid maker for deceptive advertising. A few months ago, Five Pawns was enveloped in scandal when Diacetyl (DA) and Acetyl Propionyl (AP) were discovered in their product via independent testing, despite the company’s claims and own test results.

Read more at: http://www.v4p3r.com/vapers-sue-five-pawns-for-5-million/

@VaporJoes

 

[BigNasty]

DOH!!
Sure hope they have insurance.

 

[nabibrian]

 

[Jimi D]

Where's the damage from these individuals that vaped this so called poison ???? Typical American bullshit looking for a free ride. Pathetic.

 

[BigNasty]

Where's the damage from these individuals that vaped this so called poison ???? Typical American bullshit looking for a free ride. Pathetic.

So did you follow why they are pissed?

 

[Jimi D]

So did you follow why they are pissed?

Yeah. Because they bought 30 ml bottles and were not told the diketones were in there.

 

[BigNasty]

Yeah. Because they bought 30 ml bottles and were not told the diketones were in there.

AP the diketones were 20-350% high than tobacco cigs when they claimed they were ap and diketone free.
Then lied about the testing and were called out on it, and defended their bullshit claims.

 

[Jimi D]

So are these individuals on their death beds ate up with popcorn lung ? Fuck ! We don't need the FDA to shut the industry down. We can just do it ourselves.

 

[HeadInClouds]

So are these individuals on their death beds ate up with popcorn lung ? Fuck ! We don't need the FDA to shut the industry down. We can just do it ourselves.

There is no claim of physical injury; it's claiming false advertising and fraud. The crux of it is whether 5P intentionally misrepresented facts for financial gain.

This brings to mind Volkswagen's current predicament.

 

[Whiskey]

However I do see what Jimi is saying too.

 

[Browncoat]

However I do see what Jimi is saying too.

So are these individuals on their death beds ate up with popcorn lung ? Fuck ! We don't need the FDA to shut the industry down. We can just do it ourselves.

What's the matter with you? Are we supposed to give businesses like Dr. Crimmy's and Five Pawns a pass when they act like morons just because they're vape-related? If you drive a Ford, do you give them a pass if they manufacture a defective vehicle that has the potential to harm a lot of people and then lie about it...just because you like Ford?

This knight in shining armor "we are a community" crap needs to stop. A huge portion of the companies in this industry are in it just to make a fast buck and it's about time people started warming up to it.

 

[vuJim]

Yeah. Because they bought 30 ml bottles and were not told the diketones were in there.

No, because they were explicitly told DA and AP were not in there. Big difference. I'm not generally in favour of such lawsuits, but, in this case: More power to them. The consumers were lied-to about the presence of a known harmful agent in a product they purchased in good faith that was not present.

 

[stevegmu]

So are these individuals on their death beds ate up with popcorn lung ? Fuck ! We don't need the FDA to shut the industry down. We can just do it ourselves.

You think companies which engage in fraud should be exempt from legal action, just because they sell e-liquid?

They should be litigated out of business or shut down by the FDA. They are a blight on the vape industry- same as Suicide Bunny and Nikoticket...

 

[vuJim]

They should be litigated out of business or shut down by the FDA.

 

[stevegmu]

Yes. If companies engage in fraud and vapers look the other way, they need to be shut down. Most who vape don't know about diacetyl, because there are no regulations...

 

[ej1024]

Five pawns is FUCKED!!


VAPE ON

 

[stevegmu]

What's the matter with you? Are we supposed to give businesses like Dr. Crimmy's and Five Pawns a pass when they act like morons just because they're vape-related? If you drive a Ford, do you give them a pass if they manufacture a defective vehicle that has the potential to harm a lot of people and then lie about it...just because you like Ford?

This knight in shining armor "we are a community" crap needs to stop. A huge portion of the companies in this industry are in it just to make a fast buck and it's about time people started warming up to it.

Examples like this are why the vape industry is seen as fringe...
These companies need to go away...

 

[ej1024]

I remember this guys back in 2011 when they first started, the co owner used to be a hair dresser, he gave a bunch of sample juices while I was vaping (RSST)at a Starbucks in Irvine California, that was the only time i VAPEd their juices cuz their juices are too damn expensive and still are, but very good!
#paybackisabitch



VAPE ON

 

[freemind]

What's the matter with you? Are we supposed to give businesses like Dr. Crimmy's and Five Pawns a pass when they act like morons just because they're vape-related? If you drive a Ford, do you give them a pass if they manufacture a defective vehicle that has the potential to harm a lot of people and then lie about it...just because you like Ford?

This knight in shining armor "we are a community" crap needs to stop. A huge portion of the companies in this industry are in it just to make a fast buck and it's about time people started warming up to it.

I agree. Juice is a manufactured PRODUCT. As such, there is definitely a liability to manufacture a reliable product. Lying or misrepresenting ANY product is wrong. I don't give a fuck if it's juice or a car.

Fuck 5Wrongs. May they get sued into oblivion. The only back eye the vape community gets, is from the dumb fuckery people like these are doing.

 

[MikeSully]

Fuck five pawns. BUT I see Jimi's point. This will surely serve as proof for the FDA's case about the need for them to step in and regulate us into oblivion. That said, all they had to do was disclose the truth and we'd keep flying under the radar. Now this. Damnit.

 

[stevegmu]

Fuck five pawns. BUT I see Jimi's point. This will surely serve as proof for the FDA's case about the need for them to step in and regulate us into oblivion. That said, all they had to do was disclose the truth and we'd keep flying under the radar. Now this. Damnit.

Five Pawns and others are just a product of an industry with no regulation. There are many more like them...

 

[MikeSully]

So long as thr FDA keeps their hands off my DIY. I could care less about juice companies except for the jobs and revenue the generate within my favorite hobby.

 

[Zamazam]

Very true.

 

[BigNasty]

Damnit where did you find Crimmy's mixing station fan?

 

[OBDave]

Well if we're all about free market capitalism, shouldn't the company be free to market whatever it wants, the consumer be free to do their own research to determine whether the vendor is telling the truth, and the vendor be free to continue selling to anyone who can't or won't perform testing to determine the validity of their claims?

I've heard the same logic used by political candidates of a certain stripe who argue we should stop allowing the USDA to inspect meat packing plants because eventually "the bad ones" will kill enough people that consumers will figure it out and stop buying meat sourced there, so the market will take care of itself...

 

[BigNasty]

Well if we're all about free market capitalism, shouldn't the company be free to market whatever it wants, the consumer be free to do their own research to determine whether the vendor is telling the truth, and the vendor be free to continue selling to anyone who can't or won't perform testing to determine the validity of their claims?

I've heard the same logic used by political candidates of a certain stripe who argue we should stop allowing the USDA to inspect meat packing plants because eventually "the bad ones" will kill enough people that consumers will figure it out and stop buying meat sourced there, so the market will take care of itself...

Except when the meat is from china and not labeled.

 

[stevegmu]

How about dog meat being sold as beef? I guess that's ok. The market would figure it out eventually. How about pet food? No need for inspections and testing; once enough pets die the market will figure it out. I hear so many complain about Chantix. It shouldn't be regulated at all and carry no warning labels. After all, the free market will figure it out. I won't go on about vehicle safety; it would be as silly as the other scenarios...
I really should start selling hybrid 'clones' with clearos and laptop cells. Perfectly ok in a free market...

 

[BigNasty]

How about dog meat being sold as beef? I guess that's ok. The market would figure it out eventually. How about pet food? No need for inspections and testing; once enough pets die the market will figure it out. I hear so many complain about Chantix. It shouldn't be regulated at all and carry no warning labels. After all, the free market will figure it out. I won't go on about vehicle safety; it would be as silly as the other scenarios...
I really should start selling hybrid 'clones' with clearos and laptop cells. Perfectly ok in a free market...

Chantix needs yanked off the market.
I have known more than a few people who took it and they all turned into some insane berserkers.

 

[Browncoat]

Fuck five pawns. BUT I see Jimi's point. This will surely serve as proof for the FDA's case about the need for them to step in and regulate us into oblivion. That said, all they had to do was disclose the truth and we'd keep flying under the radar. Now this. Damnit.

This has exactly zero bearing on FDA regulations. The draft of those regs are already on someone's desk, and have been for awhile. This is a case of false advertising. Had regulations been in place, Five Pawns arguably would've bypassed the labeling requirements anyway and continued to lie about what was in its product.

Vaping is a business, people. More than that, it's an entire industry worth billions. It's long overdue to stop hand holding around a campfire and pretending like this is a community of close-knit customers and vendors, because it hasn't been for years. It isn't a hobby, it isn't a subculture, it's a consumer product. It's no different than the soda you drink or the food you eat, or for that matter, the cigarettes you used to smoke. If Pepsi started including aspartame in its ingredients and then intentionally left it off the label, you'd be singing a different tune.

Five Pawns isn't some backwater garage juice company, either. They aren't a little guy operation. They are one of the handful who have a legit corporation, lab, marketing plan, and people who know what the hell they're doing. And that's kind of the point. They KNEW better and did wrong anyway.

 

[MikeSully]

This has exactly zero bearing on FDA regulations. The draft of those regs are already on someone's desk, and have been for awhile. This is a case of false advertising. Had regulations been in place, Five Pawns arguably would've bypassed the labeling requirements anyway and continued to lie about what was in its product.

Vaping is a business, people. More than that, it's an entire industry worth billions. It's long overdue to stop hand holding around a campfire and pretending like this is a community of close-knit customers and vendors, because it hasn't been for years. It isn't a hobby, it isn't a subculture, it's a consumer product. It's no different than the soda you drink or the food you eat, or for that matter, the cigarettes you used to smoke. If Pepsi started including aspartame in its ingredients and then intentionally left it off the label, you'd be singing a different tune.

Five Pawns isn't some backwater garage juice company, either. They aren't a little guy operation. They are one of the handful who have a legit corporation, lab, marketing plan, and people who know what the hell they're doing. And that's kind of the point. They KNEW better and did wrong anyway.

I can say with great confidence that you missed my point entirely. I didn't say they shouldn't be suing. My intention was just that this whole ordeal (the fault of five pawns) serves only to harm what we love at the worst of times. After reading your reply, I am glad I don't share your opinion about what vaping means to me. If I felt like you do, I'd have left vaping a long time ago. Disconcerting to see that vaping media has such a toxic view of vaping. Good luck with that.

Edit- and I intend none of the above remarks in defense of five pawns. They're fraudsters and big business at it's worst. My experience with the industry does not include them at all or anyone like them.

 

[Browncoat]

I can say with great confidence that you missed my point entirely....I am glad I don't share your opinion about what vaping means to me. If I felt like you do, I'd have left vaping a long time ago...

No, I get your point.

You're one of those who thinks that all vapers are part of some ill-conceived community. Pretty much nailed it on the head with your "left vaping" comment. What do you mean by leave vaping? If you stopped drinking Pepsi tomorrow, would you say that you left soda drinking? Would you leave the steak-eating community or Ford-driving community? No.

I swear some of you people think we should all wear jackets or hats or something. Maybe a lapel pin?

 

[nabibrian]

we should all wear jackets or hats or something. Maybe a lapel pin?

Great idea, I should start working on some designs!

 

[BigNasty]

Great idea, I should start working on some designs!

I think the jews did that in the 40s... look HOW that turned out.

 

[nabibrian]

I think the jews did that in the 40s... look HOW that turned out.

Ouch!!!! lol

 

[MikeSully]

No, I get your point.

You're one of those who thinks that all vapers are part of some ill-conceived community. Pretty much nailed it on the head with your "left vaping" comment. What do you mean by leave vaping? If you stopped drinking Pepsi tomorrow, would you say that you left soda drinking? Would you leave the steak-eating community or Ford-driving community? No.

I swear some of you people think we should all wear jackets or hats or something. Maybe a lapel pin?

Your experience is very different than mine. YOU do not have a community.

 

[Kevin2112]

Fraud needs to be eliminated so the good honest producers can rise to the top.

 

[stevegmu]

Vaping has become Big Vapor, whether some accept it, or not...

 

[Kevin2112]

Even though I've been vaping for years I know very little about these chemicals that can cause popcorn lung. I've read that these chemicals are mainly found in cream or butter type of flavoring. I DIY my juice and primarily vape fruit flavors from Totally Wicked. After reading about all these problems with the flavoring I'm ready to go flavorless. What do you think? Any known issues with TW flavor concentrates?

 

[MikeSully]

Vaping has become Big Vapor, whether some accept it, or not...

In many instances this is true. In others it is not. Perhaps I am spoiled to only vape juice I make, or is manufactured by friends of mine in the business. Perhaps it's an anomaly that I communicate frequently with the manufacturers of my devices and use devices and accessories I have built myself. And maybe not everyone is a member of a private local vaping and advocacy group with 1000 members helping each other, promoting local businesses, offering advice and blowing up phone lines when called to action. To me, the act of vaping and is community, and a hobby and a means to proudly stay smoke free. Just realize not everyone's experiences are the same.

And to your point car enthusiasts are also a community, and a hobby... and they would say "theyre leaving" if they became unhappy with it also. Probably a very good analogy actually....

 

[HeadInClouds]

In many instances this is true. In others it is not. Perhaps I am spoiled to only vape juice I make, or is manufactured by friends of mine in the business. Perhaps it's an anomaly that I communicate frequently with the manufacturers of my devices and use devices and accessories I have built myself. And maybe not everyone is a member of a private local vaping and advocacy group with 1000 members helping each other, promoting local businesses, offering advice and blowing up phone lines when called to action. To me, the act of vaping and is community, and a hobby and a means to proudly stay smoke free. Just realize not everyone's experiences are the same.

And to your point car enthusiasts are also a community, and a hobby... and they would say "theyre leaving" if they became unhappy with it also. Probably a very good analogy actually....

Most of this is true for most of us here on VU, especially DIYers. We are spoiled, knowing what to look for in our purchases, having the ability to DIY with ingredients we choose ourselves. If we have questions, we know how to pursue answers. But I believe we're the tiny minority of vapers. I think most vapers know none of this, have no interest in DIY, have no vape "community", and assume existing truth-in-advertising laws apply to vendor liquid they're using. That should be a reasonable assumption, but 5P and others have proven that's not the case in the vape biz.

The one bit that most strikes me in this particular case: stated nic levels were incorrect. That just can't be allowed to happen.

 

[FlavoVape]

There is no claim of physical injury; it's claiming false advertising and fraud. The crux of it is whether 5P intentionally misrepresented facts for financial gain.

This brings to mind Volkswagen's current predicament.

I am well aware of VW issue as I drive a golf TDI. 5p deserves what it gets for the deceptive marketing.

Posted via my phablet using Tapatalk

 

[MikeSully]

Most of this is true for most of us here on VU, especially DIYers. We are spoiled, knowing what to look for in our purchases, having the ability to DIY with ingredients we choose ourselves. If we have questions, we know how to pursue answers. But I believe we're the tiny minority of vapers. I think most vapers know none of this, have no interest in DIY, have no vape "community", and assume existing truth-in-advertising laws apply to vendor liquid they're using. That should be a reasonable assumption, but 5P and others have proven that's not the case in the vape biz.

The one bit that most strikes me in this particular case: stated nic levels were incorrect. That just can't be allowed to happen.

Very well said. Totally agree. And again I will restate that this whole debacle is not something we needed right now.

 

[martinelias]

When I got my Chrysler 200 a month or two into it it was discovered they had a defect in the computer, don't even remember what it was, but it had potential to be dangerous. They recalled it, apologized, fixed it. I didn't have to sue, as nothing happened to me and they fixed it.
American culture is silly in that they sue for everything. Like Jimi said just people looking for free ride, it's bullshit. Get a fucking job, stop buying from them, call them out in the forums or whatever so people know and leave it at that. I doubt they will win anyway.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

[stevegmu]

When I got my Chrysler 200 a month or two into it it was discovered they had a defect in the computer, don't even remember what it was, but it had potential to be dangerous. They recalled it, apologized, fixed it. I didn't have to sue, as nothing happened to me and they fixed it.
American culture is silly in that they sue for everything. Like Jimi said just people looking for free ride, it's bullshit. Get a fucking job, stop buying from them, call them out in the forums or whatever so people know and leave it at that. I doubt they will win anyway.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

The automotive industry is highly regulated. Safety recalls are only 'voluntary' so as to avoid heavy fines. The vape industry is not regulated. The vast majority of vapers aren't on forums and would have no idea concerning Five Pawns deceit, lies and fraud. A lawsuit makes the problem public and sends a warning to other dishonest vendors...

 

[Browncoat]

Vaping has become Big Vapor, whether some accept it, or not...

Gonna disagree with you on this.

The industry as a whole is big, but there are no big companies or industry leaders. There's no single vendor grabbing major market share or a "Big Three", like in the auto industry. There are no national chains or major brands. The only ones who remotely qualify are the Chinese vendors. This is part of the problem, really. A huge portion of this industry are simply fly-by-nighters...they're not even legitimate businesses. Because of the regulatory wild west, the early adopters are mostly just looking to cash in while they can.

Large (and smart) companies wouldn't touch vaping with a 10 ft pole. Why invest in rolling out a new product in an uncertain industry with the FDA hovering around with the banhammer? It's not worth it in the long haul. This is why juice prices are so ridiculous. If there were large companies capable of producing e-liquid on a mass scale, the stuff would cost $5/bottle instead of seeing 500% markups.

 

[stevegmu]

Gonna disagree with you on this.

The industry as a whole is big, but there are no big companies or industry leaders. There's no single vendor grabbing major market share or a "Big Three", like in the auto industry. There are no national chains or major brands. The only ones who remotely qualify are the Chinese vendors. This is part of the problem, really. A huge portion of this industry are simply fly-by-nighters...they're not even legitimate businesses. Because of the regulatory wild west, the early adopters are mostly just looking to cash in while they can.

Large (and smart) companies wouldn't touch vaping with a 10 ft pole. Why invest in rolling out a new product in an uncertain industry with the FDA hovering around with the banhammer? It's not worth it in the long haul. This is why juice prices are so ridiculous. If there were large companies capable of producing e-liquid on a mass scale, the stuff would cost $5/bottle instead of seeing 500% markups.

There are the Big 3. but they are all cigalike manufacturers. NJOY, BLU and V2... You then have companies like Halo, Smok, Kanger, Aspire, Innoken, ProVape... I think e-liquid is priced in accordance with market demands. Too high and companies like Halo wouldn't be growing. What many don't know is much of the branded e-liquid is produced in large labs, which mix e-liquid for a number of brands- like Halo e-liquid..

 

[martinelias]

The automotive industry is highly regulated. Safety recalls are only 'voluntary' so as to avoid heavy fines. The vape industry is not regulated. The vast majority of vapers aren't on forums and would have no idea concerning Five Pawns deceit, lies and fraud. A lawsuit makes the problem public and sends a warning to other dishonest vendors...

Yeah I can see where you're going with that.
Still though, it has to be proven they knew about it. Think about it if you own a large, successful ejuice brand, would you risk carrying harmful chemicals knowingly, fully aware that it'd be suicide for your business if you get caught? And knowing that the chances of being caught with these substances is high?
Are further tests being done? Have they made a statement? What's the credibility of the people who tested it?

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

[stevegmu]

Yeah I can see where you're going with that.
Still though, it has to be proven they knew about it. Think about it if you own a large, successful ejuice brand, would you risk carrying harmful chemicals knowingly, fully aware that it'd be suicide for your business if you get caught? And knowing that the chances of being caught with these substances is high?
Are further tests being done? Have they made a statement? What's the credibility of the people who tested it?

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

Of course they knew. They tested, continued to say they were diacetyl free until they were called out on it by Cloud 9. If I owned any e-liquid company, I'd test. It just so happens diacetyl is very tasty, so they gambled their reputation for sales...
I trust the independent lab who tested it. I would never trust a test or sample submitted by Five Pawns. They have lost all credibility in the vape world and need to go away. Lawsuits aren't bad for the industry and vaping; companies like them are...

 

[Browncoat]

There are the Big 3. but they are all cigalike manufacturers. NJOY, BLU and V2... You then have companies like Halo, Smok, Kanger, Aspire, Innoken, ProVape... I think e-liquid is priced in accordance with market demands. Too high and companies like Halo wouldn't be growing. What many don't know is much of the branded e-liquid is produced in large labs, which mix e-liquid for a number of brands- like Halo e-liquid..

Yes, true. But...

In a pay-to-play system, are these guys going to be in the pockets of politicians? Are they contributing to and at the forefront of vaping advocacy efforts now? Are they leading the industry in setting standards and being a national voice for this industry? No. Vaping doesn't have that kind of cash to throw around, and doesn't have that kind of pull or influence. As big as this industry is, it's still small potatoes. That's the point I'm trying to ultimately make here.

 

[martinelias]

Yeah I don't really believe in the big vapor theory either... vaping is big but I don't think it compares to tobacco and food industry and the like.

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