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What’s Really Going On in China? COPIED from v4p3r.com

vaperature

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Exactly! He does NOT have some kind of control over my life.. He's not being paid by someone to critique.. or even be a watch dog... he doesnt work for the government... he's not elected.. he does not make any law, or determine my quilt in trespassing them.. he cannot, legally, detain me.. he doesnt determine if I work.. Nothing. No control. He is a nobody working for no one. If there is no control, there is no conflict.
Nobody's saying he has control over you. Not even sure where that's coming from. But don't tell me he doesn't have influence over the market. Don't tell me that when he gives a positive or negative review that it doesn't influence the people who watch that review. And since there is a huge void in professional vaping reviewers who actually get paid by a respectable media outlet with rules and regulations, he's all we have, so we just expect him to act better than that. I don't care how much integrity he has, you can't tell me after Innokin spent thousands of dollars on him like that, that he's not going to think twice before giving them a shitty review that would cost his new pals a lot of money and screw up that lovely relationship he's personally developed with them. Sorry, that's just not what reviewers do. If your argument is that he's not a professional reviewer so he doesn't have to act professional, then say that.
 

Browncoat

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Update:

Dimitri actually caught something I posted in chat and addressed it live on the air about the formation of a Chinese/American association. He said he didn't see that happening, but he expressed that it was important for Chinese and American manufacturers to work together. For example, American e-liquid makers and Chinese mod builders.

Read between the lines on that one if you want. Personally, I don't see how that can happen without an industry association.
 

Midniteoyl

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LOL..

youtu.be/DzZ0AEwd1iA?t=10m15s
 

BoomStick

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My point is he's a private citizen that offers a service that costs the user of the service nothing. He can do whatever the hell he wants. I understand someone wondering if his associations will affect how he conducts product reviews in the future. Where this thread has wound up and some of the nonsense being posted I don't understand.
Some trains just keep wrecking.
 

Browncoat

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Update:

Another question I posted in chat addressed. I asked how they would respond to statements that their objectivity as reviewers is tainted after this trip. Phil said that he doesn't feed into the drama and he wasn't going to comment on it.
 

vaperature

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My point is he's a private citizen that offers a service that costs the user of the service nothing. He can do whatever the hell he wants. I understand someone wondering if his associations will affect how he conducts product reviews in the future. Where this thread has wound up and some of the nonsense being posted I don't understand.
Some trains just keep wrecking.
Yes, he can do anything he wants, and as a result, people can react to what he does any way they want. You seem to think he has the right to act any way he wants but we don't have a right to say, "Hey, wait a minute. You just acted in what seemed to be a very unprofessional manner. How can we take your reviews seriously from now on?"
 

vaperature

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Update:

Another question I posted in chat addressed. I asked how they would respond to statements that their objectivity as reviewers is tainted after this trip. Phil said that he doesn't feed into the drama and he wasn't going to comment on it.
"No comment," is not an inspiring answer.
 

BoomStick

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Yes, he can do anything he wants, and as a result, people can react to what he does any way they want. You seem to think he has the right to act any way he wants but we don't have a right to say, "Hey, wait a minute. You just acted in what seemed to be a very unprofessional manner. How can we take your reviews seriously from now on?"
You can say whatever you want. And I can say you're being a drama queen if I want. The horse is dead. I'll leave you with your stick. I'm out. :cool:
 

MzBadger

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Quite honestly, the opinions on this say more to me about the people behind the keyboard than either one of the reviewers in question.
 

vaperature

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You can say whatever you want. And I can say you're being a drama queen if I want. The horse is dead. I'll leave you with your stick. I'm out. :cool:
I'm not a drama queen. I don't hate Phil. I like Phil. If I didn't I wouldn't give a shit about his integrity.
 

Joshua Iles

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Quite honestly, the opinions on this say more to me about the people behind the keyboard than either one of the reviewers in question.
My thoughts exactly. I've seen a lot of reviews from both of them, and been on Phil's site to get information. I'm the judge if I buy something or not, not 2 fat guys from the east coast.
 

5150sick

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I guess they were doing this: http://sevia.org/English/

It would have been just as easy for Phil to post on Facebook "Me and Dimitri are going hunting for the weekend at my uncles cabin in West Virginia. There is no Internet connection there. Be back Monday"
.
None of us would have known shit about China.

Basically what i'm trying to say is If I was going to go do some dirt I would

1) Not tell anyone that i was going to the town that the dirt was being done in.
2) Not tell anyone i was going to be with the dude i was going to do dirt with.
3) I sure as hell would pose for pictures of myself and my Buddie doing said dirt!

But that's just me :eek:
 

Arnie H

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One thing I know, they are making a lot of money in China with the Ecigs they sell to American's and the rest of the world.. And why not? They created the damn things in the first place.
 

5150sick

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These American high end mod makers out in Cali are getting Rich too.
Also the vape shops are charging pretty large markups on the gear that China is shipping to them.
I am really glad I have the ability to shop around online because what costs me $50.00 online costs $200.00 at a vape shop.
 

JColt

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I think the only controversy is the people on the outside looking in and butt hurt over it. Phil and Dimitri will either go about business as usual or change. If they change they will lose viewership quickly. I for one think it will be business as usual. Not because I'm a fan boy but because of how they have acted and grown with the vaping community. There are several vape personalities who I wouldn't trust for a second but those 2 are not one of them and probably the reason they were invited in the first place. As far as Phil saying he would not participate in the drama. Well that just shows his maturity.
 

MD_Boater

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....he expressed that it was important for Chinese and American manufacturers to work together. For example, American e-liquid makers and Chinese mod builders...
I have no idea why any one would think that it is important that they work together. It is not necessary.
 

Celtic Fog

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I love that book/movie!
But the lady's name was badger....so I had to improvise.
 

Giraut

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Busardo is biased of course: anybody who gets free shit for review is. He's also insufferably conceited, full of himself, and he thinks he's the leading light of the vaping community.

But, but... you can exploit his massive ego to your advantage: because he feels his review videos should be longer and more complete than anybody else's, simply mute the sound and skip over the unending talking head bits of his videos, and you'll find closeups of whatever hardware you're interested in. If you know what you're after, that's good enough to figure out whether you want to buy it or not.

And then if you really, really can't stand Busardo's face, there's always Google Images...
 

vaperature

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Busardo is biased of course: anybody who gets free shit for review is. He's also insufferably conceited, full of himself, and he thinks he's the leading light of the vaping community.

But, but... you can exploit his massive ego to your advantage: because he feels his review videos should be longer and more complete than anybody else's, simply mute the sound and skip over the unending talking head bits of his videos, and you'll find closeups of whatever hardware you're interested in. If you know what you're after, that's good enough to figure out whether you want to buy it or not.

And then if you really, really can't stand Busardo's gormless face, there's always Google Images...
I have no problem with reviewers getting free products to review. That's extremely standard in the industry. Now getting airfair and hotel rooms and meals and so forth, that's taking it one step beyond.
 

Celtic Fog

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The Treasure of the Sierra Madre....Yup
 

Giraut

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I have no problem with reviewers getting free products to review. That's extremely standard in the industry.

Yep. Trouble is, a reviewer that pisses in the pool too often doesn't get free stuff for very long. If I was a manufacturer and I was bashed more than once by a reviewer, I sure as hell wouldn't send him anything anymore. If I was a vendor, I wouldn't either, because I need to shift my stock, and the reviewer ain't helping me.

Reviewers can claim they're impartial all they want, they aren't. They just play along. They're part of the industry.
 

Celtic Fog

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Yep. Trouble is, a reviewer that pisses in the pool too often doesn't get free stuff for very long. If I was a manufacturer and I was bashed more than once by a reviewer, I sure as hell wouldn't send him anything anymore. If I was a vendor, I wouldn't either, because I need to shift my stock, and the reviewer ain't helping me.

Reviewers can claim they're impartial all they want, they aren't. They just play along. They're part of the industry.
A good reviewer, purchases the product he reviews.
 

vaperature

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A good reviewer, purchases the product he reviews.
That's not really true. The vast majority of reviewers don't pay for the products they review. Do you think Richard Roeper pays to see the movies he reviews? Especially if you're reviewing expensive mods that can run hundreds of dollars, you can't expect the reviewer to fork that up out of pocket. If someone wants their product reviewed and offers the reviewer an example of it for said review, that's just standard practice. I'm sure Phil has way more vape gear than he already needs and in fact he gives a lot of it away for free to his viewers, so he's not going to be swayed by a free product because quite frankly, he doesn't need it. But as I said, receiving air fare, hotel rooms, extravagant meals, being wined and dined, doing photo ops with industry members where you are wrapping your arm around them like you're best buddies, that goes WAY beyond getting a reviewer copy of some product.
 

Celtic Fog

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Thats why I watch independent reviewers....vape related. I don't watch paid for reviews on any products/movies these days. That is the beauty of the internet...if one reviewer has not tried the product, there are a handful of other reviewers who have. I don't need them to have thousands of viewers, I prefer the average joe's opinion more. But thats just me.
 

Joshua Iles

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I personally don't have a problem with people enjoying a vacation on the company dime. Now if they do become super biased in the aftermath, there's a problem. I don't believe that will happen.
 

Celtic Fog

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I personally don't have a problem with people enjoying a vacation on the company dime. Now if they do become super biased in the aftermath, there's a problem. I don't believe that will happen.
OMG really? He already drools over anything Evolve!
 

Zamazam

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What all this drama boils down to is impartiality. Can Busardo and Dimitri be impartial and evaluate products on their merit rather than keeping the free product pipelines open? Either way, I see another "association" in the works with manufacturers footing the bill, which means we foot the bill with increased prices on vape gear. I started vaping with 510 batteries and cartomizers, with what I spent on my first setup, I could now afford a high end mod with a cloud chasing tank setup.

Prices have come down as vaping has become more popular, however the desire to make profit and squeeze every penny from vapers is still paramount. It's inevitable that associations will be formed, anytime there is big bucks at stake, associations form to snag some of it and make a select few a lot of money. South Cali has attempted to put America mod makers and those who buy the mods in a stranglehold for years with highly illegal trade restrictions and price fixing. There are still $300+ battery tubes with switches being sold, but only by a few select retailers, both online and B&M.

Busardo and Dimitri made the decision to hobnob with manufacturers, it was their decision alone and now they will either address or dismiss any questions raised. I really believe that both of them have damaged their appearance as impartial reviewers, but once again - It was their decision.

As for me, I'm going the route of researching reviews from people who actually purchased the product. I'd rather get the views of someone who purchased a mod or atty for themselves rather than watch a review from a guy/gal who has a review queue and a backlog of 6 months due to all that vape mail they are getting for free. I don't care about the free stuff situation anymore, I do care about impartiality and credibility, especially if I'm going to drop a couple hundred bones on a really good vape setup.
 

Browncoat

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@Zamazam raises very good points.

Personally, I find all this drama a bit funny. As a photographer, it's widely accepted that reviewers who get thousands of dollars worth of free camera gear are to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Yet in the vaping industry, the fact that money is a motivator in reviews seems to be a revelation to a lot of people.
 

5150sick

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If it's a China box mod I NEVER pre order it.
I wait until it hits the market.
Then I wait until they fix the bugs with the 1st one and release the "V2" model.

It's not about the latest and greatest for me.
It's about shit that's going to last a few years.
(that ended up being homemade dual 18650 hammond boxes with 120 watt raptor chips)

I bought a kanger subtank.
I really like the RBA portion but I also really like the fill and vape aspect.
So i bought second one.

1 on a DNA30 box with the pre built coils and the other on a 50 watt mod with the RBA in it.

I never to this day have watched one single review on the kanger subtank!

I don't need some over tanned Italian guy in a Hawaiian shirt or some goofy bearded clown telling me 'it's sick as tits' to know what to buy.

I've been vaping for close to 3 years and i know what i like already.
 

Browncoat

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I don't need some...goofy bearded clown telling me 'it's sick as tits' to know what to buy.
I watch some of his stuff for pure comedic value. "Ch-ch-chuckin' the vapor!"

I dunno how anyone with such a ridiculous haircut expects to be taken seriously.
 

tombaker

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My response to all of this was too long to post in this thread, so here is some more controversy for ya:
http://www.v4p3r.com/conspiracy-theories-and-tinfoil-hats/
So Anthony lets do a little recap. If I get something wrong, use the number of each to respond. Okie?
1. You are a New Vaper, been vaping less than 2 months. Been said many times, you have never said otherwise.

2. You have never listened to Dimitri's show before last night. And posted here breathlessly that that Dimitri was answering questions. You seemingly did not notice it was a call in show, because you did not bother to call in with your question, even though the phone number is posted above chat, and he mentioned it several times.

3. You are not familiar with Phil Busardo's video, and have not watched any significant number of them regardless. You are not aware that when he tests battery and Mod hardware, he puts them on the scope to measure their outputs. You must think Fluke instruments is a sponsor. As far as functionality tests, he shows the menus and the operations. But what really shows you don't watch his Video reviews, is because you say he has a NSFW style of presentation. Which you did say.

4. So the reviewers that you are calling out, you are very unfamiliar with, or at least unfamiliar with. And you have been vaping for under 60 days.

5. You website is even newer than your vaping, but you are selling advertising space already. You want to get paid for people clicking.

6. You first write a conspiracy of two reviewers. Come up with a theory that these two are going to establish some sort of standards, or safety, or are just going to get paid off. Your first article is nothing but tossing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. The floor has all sorts of spaghetti strewn across it, the wall is clean, but you persist.

7. You next article talks critically about you last article, exposing it was tin foil hat conspiracy, you point at no others, and you explain how websites like your put up contrived controversial article to get clicks to soak their sponsors paying for clicks. This is the article with all the biting insight of Internet 101 circa 2010. But hey, the cut an past Mad-Lib style of content with a catchy title is hopefully gonna get click. You started with SECRETS, and then you went to TINFOIL CONSPIRACY THEORY. The next one may even start off with "Shocking new"

8. Dimitri is focused on advocacy and information for newbie vapers, like yourself. You simply don't understand what he is doing, nor bothered to listen to old shows. Fine for any new vaper, but more or less a joke, if you are saying your are the "the web's premier vaping e-magazine"

9. You tend to think that anyone who reads your shit, and calls you out on it, can not actually read. You think you are quite the superior.

10. When it comes to the vaping community, and vape meets, and anything to do with the outside world of people, you can be quoted saying.
This is why I've preferred the internet for social interaction since 2000. I rarely go out anymore, and when I do, I'd rather be at home.

1) People stink. My God...I swear half of the world doesn't bathe.
2) Online interactions have 2 great features "real life" sorely needs: mute and ignore.
http://vapingunderground.com/threads/what-is-wrong-with-people.46248/page-2#post-263264

11. You someone don't seem to understand that China regardless of any view clones, price advantages, or whatnot, is a huge part of Vaping, and Vaping is under threat, and there is shared common interest, and China picking up the cost to fly some people out to the SEVIA conference was, and remains a good thing. And that trip COULD, and likely will, pay some dividends for all Vapers, because Kanger Aspire, Innokin and the rest can help fight the good fight to keep vaping legal and easily available. And you author of the various expose's have no clue or care for any of that. Heck you have been vaping under 60 days. why should you care.

Anything grab you as wrong, on the facts? Its a nice day, vape in the big outside world.
 

vaperature

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So Anthony lets do a little recap. If I get something wrong, use the number of each to respond. Okie?
1. You are a New Vaper, been vaping less than 2 months. Been said many times, you have never said otherwise.

2. You have never listened to Dimitri's show before last night. And posted here breathlessly that that Dimitri was answering questions. You seemingly did not notice it was a call in show, because you did not bother to call in with your question, even though the phone number is posted above chat, and he mentioned it several times.

3. You are not familiar with Phil Busardo's video, and have not watched any significant number of them regardless. You are not aware that when he tests battery and Mod hardware, he puts them on the scope to measure their outputs. You must think Fluke instruments is a sponsor. As far as functionality tests, he shows the menus and the operations. But what really shows you don't watch his Video reviews, is because you say he has a NSFW style of presentation. Which you did say.

4. So the reviewers that you are calling out, you are very unfamiliar with, or at least unfamiliar with. And you have been vaping for under 60 days.

5. You website is even newer than your vaping, but you are selling advertising space already. You want to get paid for people clicking.

6. You first write a conspiracy of two reviewers. Come up with a theory that these two are going to establish some sort of standards, or safety, or are just going to get paid off. Your first article is nothing but tossing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. The floor has all sorts of spaghetti strewn across it, the wall is clean, but you persist.

7. You next article talks critically about you last article, exposing it was tin foil hat conspiracy, you point at no others, and you explain how websites like your put up contrived controversial article to get clicks to soak their sponsors paying for clicks. This is the article with all the biting insight of Internet 101 circa 2010. But hey, the cut an past Mad-Lib style of content with a catchy title is hopefully gonna get click. You started with SECRETS, and then you went to TINFOIL CONSPIRACY THEORY. The next one may even start off with "Shocking new"

8. Dimitri is focused on advocacy and information for newbie vapers, like yourself. You simply don't understand what he is doing, nor bothered to listen to old shows. Fine for any new vaper, but more or less a joke, if you are saying your are the "the web's premier vaping e-magazine"

9. You tend to think that anyone who reads your shit, and calls you out on it, can not actually read. You think you are quite the superior.

10. When it comes to the vaping community, and vape meets, and anything to do with the outside world of people, you can be quoted saying.
http://vapingunderground.com/threads/what-is-wrong-with-people.46248/page-2#post-263264

11. You someone don't seem to understand that China regardless of any view clones, price advantages, or whatnot, is a huge part of Vaping, and Vaping is under threat, and there is shared common interest, and China picking up the cost to fly some people out to the SEVIA conference was, and remains a good thing. And that trip COULD, and likely will, pay some dividends for all Vapers, because Kanger Aspire, Innokin and the rest can help fight the good fight to keep vaping legal and easily available. And you author of the various expose's have no clue or care for any of that. Heck you have been vaping under 60 days. why should you care.

Anything grab you as wrong, on the facts? Its a nice day, vape in the big outside world.
You know, I've had enough of this "new vaper" shit. It wasn't but about two years ago Phil himself was exclusively vaping cartos for crying out loud. I didn't even learn about vaping until about a year ago and that's probably the case for most people here. The ENTIRE industry is "new" so enough with this "new vaper" crap as if that has anything to do with anything.
 

Browncoat

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LULz and general asshattery
@tombaker

I must confess, you're my favorite type of reader. You'll never understand why, and if I explained it in exhaustive detail, you would simply deny it and try to explain it away like everything else. And that's the beauty of it. You'll never see the irony.

You have spent a lot of time and effort in this thread attempting to disqualify and discredit me, and it's all been for naught. Keep on keepin' on, my friend. One day, you'll be wrestling around with all of this as you lay awake at night, and it will hit you like a freight train.

Until that day comes, be sure to subscribe so that you never miss a single post. I'd hate to miss out on the entertainment.
 

Steam Powered

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Don't matter to me how many Chinese parties Phil and Dimitri go to. Or any other reviewer for that matter.
I only watch reviews if I can't figure out how to get into the menu or put back together a mod or atty I already bought.
I do my own research and decide what I want.
I wait till it hits the B&M, or a friend buys one and take a look at it then order it online if want it.
I ain't bought nothing blind in a long time. I don't give two craps what any reviewer says.
But... But Trippers said "it's sickastits!" hahaha...so?
 
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Giraut

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[...]I'm sure Phil has way more vape gear than he already needs and in fact he gives a lot of it away for free to his viewers, so he's not going to be swayed by a free product because quite frankly, he doesn't need it.[..]

You misunderstand Busardo's conflict of interest: of course he doesn't need more vape gear. But he does need manufacturers/vendors to keep sending him stuff to review for free - and, being a "big name", preferably before everybody else - because he'd never be able to afford the sort of expensive gear he reviews. Without things to review, or without getting the scoop, his little gig would collapse.

If he wants manufacturers to keep sending him free stuff, he's gotta keep them happy. So, by definition, he's biased. Plain and simple. Sure, every now and then, he says a few negative things - or bashes a manufacturer he doesn't care too much about - but that's just to maintain appearances. He can't really do that too much, obviously.

You know, I've had enough of this "new vaper" shit[...]

I totally agree with you. Vaping isn't rocket science. It's a simple hobby that only requires a little common sense, some basic notions of electricity, a little time to get used to things, and a lot of money to try out various devices.

Given enough money and half a brain, new vapers are as good as the most experienced "specialists" within a month at the most, and said specialists need to get over themselves more often than not.
 

UncleRJ

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Phil, Demetri, Rip, Todd and a few others fill a niche in the world of vaping.

Especially IMHO when it comes to the newest vapers just leaving the stinkes behind them for the first time.

I have seen their reviews and they can be educational and entertaining to say the least.

The last vaping video I watched was a 10 minute video on how to build a Kayfun.

I just cannot sit at my desk for 45 minutes to an hour to watch a review.

So I just sits back and watch what goes on here when a new vape toy becomes available.

I look at the specifications and pay attention to what my fellow vapers are saying about it.

As quick as we are to lust over a new device we are even quicker to tear it to shreds!

Just saying..................................
 

Midniteoyl

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Alright .. I'm out.. the actual bullshit just got too deep in this thread...
 

Celtic Fog

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Alright .. I'm out.. the actual bullshit just got too deep in this thread...
if you think reviewing products that were given to you is the only way for a review to be done, so be it, more power to you. But to call my opinion bullshit? Who made you God?

I prefer PRODUCT REVIEWS, my opinion.
you prefer Gift Reviews, your opinion.
 
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Midniteoyl

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if you think reviewing products that were given to you is the only way for a review to be done, so be it, more power to you. But to call my opinion bullshit? Who made you God?

I prefer PRODUCT REVIEWS, my opinion.
you prefer Gift Reviews, your opinion.
So.. the only reviewers you will listen to is Consumer Reports? 'Cause they are the only ones that actually buy stuff.. Everyone else, unless they are just starting on youtube, recieve free stuff.. everyone. Youtubers, magazines, Bloggers, you name it.
 

Celtic Fog

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I watch and read reviews from vapors who DO NOT get product given to them. I listen and read reviews from people like you and me. People who bought a product and wish to share their opinion and experience with said product. They IMO tend to be more down to earth and honest about what their feelings are on the product, they also tend to ditch PC due to the fact they shelled out the cash for said product.
 

VaporJoe

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See what my opinion does ?? ROFL. Bad JOE!! BAD VAPORJOE!!
 

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