Why aren't we building within the limits?

[zdawk]

OK, so in the last couple days, I've learned a lot about building with in your limits in concern to mech mods, particularly tube mech mods. I guess I just don't understand why I see so many sub .2 ohm builds on tube mechs if its unsafe. Why not use a parallel mech mod to safely get down to .1? or use a regulated device? Is the riskiness part of the draw to these builds, just to see what you can get away with? Or is it genuine ignorance at fault? On my part it was ignorance, but I was also following the example of what appeared to reputable experienced builders.
I see guys who own their own shops making professional video's doing ridiculous builds. They clearly have the means to vape the build safely using a dual mech, (or even tripple, or quad mechs) or a regulated device but yet there they are on a tube mech mod... Why? What is the benefit or is there one? I'm genuinely curious if there is any kind of explanation? Or do they really just not know it's not a good idea?
Are the battery limitations the vaper's conspiracy theory? I hear a lot about reusing or knock off, or second rate batteries. It's honestly a little hard to believe there's so much crap out there in comparison to real, quality products actually meeting the specs they advertise. It makes it very difficult to gauge what is true.
I'm going to change directions a little here. I like Nichrome 80 because of the fast ramp up time, but it also puts me in lower resistance builds due to it's lower resistance nature. Now, I was introduced to nichrome when I bought my first hybrid-mech mod, so perhaps its my fault to associated low resistance to mech and hybrid med mods. On the other hand it seems like all of the fused Clapton's, stapled, twisted builds use a lot of nichrome. So, by adding more pathways for the current, using lower resistance metals (nichrome), makes it difficult to build anything over .1 ohm. As with the insistence of using tube mechs on sub .2 resistance builds, again I ask what's the purpose of the Nichrome in these involved builds (twisted, Clapton's etc...)? Is it the ramp up time or that it's easier to work with?
I guess the sum of my point is this. If we have the means to safely vape below .1 why aren't we doing it? And if you don't have the means why do you do it anyway? AND it kinda pisses me off that you've got so many people out there making video's who appear reputable and are apparently just being dumb and reckless. Maybe I just need to search for higher resistance Clapton, fused, alien, staple, parallel, etc... builds and it is my own fault that I just dont see them very regularly and only see the nichrome versions of these builds.

Any way! I'm honestly just looking for any offerings of clarification or explanations about the whys of these scenario's? Sorry if I offended anyone. Rant over..

 

[roxynoodle]

Good question.

Some people are ignorant of Ohm's Law. Some are ignorant of battery safety. Some of the battery issues can be blamed on unscrupulous manufacturers who claim untrue, misleading specs.

And some people like to push limits because...they enjoy taking the risk of serious injury?

 

[anavidfan]

Sorry, cant help myself....

 

[vap3r]

...I see so many sub .2 ohm builds on tube mechs...

Maybe they are using 30A cells? I use the new mustard HB4 in all my single tube mechs. Before that, I was using the brown HB4. Before that, the HB2.

 

[zdawk]

Maybe they are using 30A cells?

True, that'll get you down to about .12 but even still most reviews I read about batteries is to be safe adhere to the limits of 5A below whats on the label. And practical testing on the purple Imren 30A, is actually like 17A before serious failure... Just irritating. I'm glad I know these things now, but makes me wanna kick every person who lead me down that road right in the nuts.

Sorry, cant help myself....

Thats as good as reason as any I suppose..

 

[BigNasty]

People are fucking stupid.
Zero point going into deadshortsville.

 

[HondaDavidson]

What I don't understand us why people build sub .5 ohm at all. After all the only reason people built low ohm in the first place was that is how you got higher wattage without regulation. Now we have the high wattage mods and we are still building coil meant for mech ohm wise. At the rate we are going the only way to get more flavor will be to drink the juice. IMO converting more juice to vapor only results in more flavor not always better or even good flavor.


Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[sparkky1]

Is it so much the people who are stupid ? http://www.wismec.com/news/reuleaux-rx200-upgrade-firmware-3-10-version-launching/

 

[zdawk]

Now we have the high wattage mods and we are still building coil meant for mech ohm wise.

Interesting point! My beef isn't so much with the regulated mod builders. It's the extreme sub ohm builds in the name of "taste" on a tube mech mod. I mean.. It makes sense to build low if you want to run at a High wattage, and you're using a regulated device to minimize the danger... Unless it is dangerous and I just haven't figured that out yet.

Is it so much the people who are stupid

not sure what you're getting at here... at least its a regulated device.. Maybe this points the finger at the manufacturer? but From what I understand there is significantly less risk doing a .1 build on a regulated device. but there are people going .1 and under on tube mech mods... why? The coils are cool, but cool enough to warrant losing your face?

 

[Gheed]

This is going to take me a hour to type out.

There is a difference between pushing the limits and ignorance. Some jackass not informing you about what you were getting yourself into and ass tonnes of reading to understand what you are getting into are two different things. I constantly push my 25r5s over 20 amps, one build is at 30. I know a lot of people don't trust pulse ratings but they are real. I feel safe. I have read Battery blogs, read what Mooch has to say and I feel safe.

Let me tell you about my decent into madness. The Kbox was my introduction to sub ohm vaping. I had been vaping for three years on cig-a-likes and iClear30s on a MVP2.0. I liked it. I was close to just quitting vaping and I wondered what this sub ohm shit was all about. I wanted to get a TVF4 but the Kbox couldn't fire the .15 coil so I ended up getting a X-Cube II. I got a ni200 coil but the temp control on the X-Cube sucked hairy goat balls so I picked up a Snow Wolf 200. All was great but I wanted to know what this RDA shit was all about. I picked up a Troll. Damn that thing was great. I thought they all must be this good so I picked up a Mutation what ever the fuck. Over dripping was a problem. It cost me the X-cube. (and eventually the Snow Wolf) My third RDA is what sealed the deal, Zephyr Buddha v2. I wanted the uber clouds and this big bastard was it. About two weeks later I noticed this big ass box in the display case. I asked to see it and the owner asked me "What do you know about battery safety". I knew nothing, unregulated was the devil. It would blow up killing my wife, children and dog. He and the other guy working explained it all to me (it all went way over my head) I said thanks and left. I went home and started reading about unregulated devises, here and EFC. a week later I had questions so I went back and asked them about what I didn't understand. They helped me the best they could. They answered every question I had. Then they told me that that was the last big fucking box left. I bought it on the spot. It took me a week to understand what is was doing. I never used it once. From there I realized Mech was the way to go. I bought a Fuchai to replace my burnt out regulated mods but sold it almost new and bought a Rx200. (the only regulated mod I have out of the 14 I own) Of the 28 RDAs I have only one has a build under .1 (dual quad staggered 26n80 comming in at .08 that I fire on a triple parallel (unsafe buy the rule of 1.5 amp rule of parallel boxes people like to toss around (a build I've been chain vaping in the now almost two hours it took me to type this meaningless pile of poo)))

So I've lost my train of thought. guess I should of added TL;DR. I'm sorry you jumped in with total ignorance, without the guidance of people who had your best interests in mind. My god this is getting more and more pointless. There is a place for pushing your batteries, if you understand what you are doing and/or getting yourself into. Please, don't become one of those Darwin Fuckity fucking fucktard fucking idiot spewing imbeciles or WTF 250 watt butt munchers. Some of my builds push the envelope some don't. I'm going to stop this pointless drivel here.

Stupid long post brought to you by "Bell's Two Hearted Ale".

 

[Gheed]

Really @JERUS, I like you and all your posts are spot on but how could you like that my long post of nonsense.

Oh, and that big ass box is the God of all boxes, The Hammer of God v2.

 

[JERUS]

The rules repeated frequently are honestly all wrong. They're purposefully holding back in respect to safety. The idea is "the rules" are meant for the uninformed audience. Once you learn and educate yourself as to where those rules came from and why they are in place pushing them becomes a non issue. Though, I want to stress that the knowledge of understanding why they are in place is absolutely key!

First, we don't work in continuous discharge, we work in pulses. The most important, but not only, reason we have a rule to stick to continuous discharge is that if any unforseen issues happen that your battery can continue to discharge it's current and nothing bad will happen other than potentially a deformed coil/burnt wick/overly hot mod/tube. If you're careful with your mech though and treat it right, you won't be doing anything other than pulses, now the frequency matters, when you go over the continuous discharge you're overheating the battery, letting it cool makes a difference, but I'm not here to give the full rundown just the understanding that if you educate yourself that pushing the limits isn't going to result in a pipe bomb, it's just entering the danger zone (which isn't a great idea, but not necessarily stupid).

As for the 1.5X for parallel batteries, again an overexaggerated safety precaution. Theoretically it's double, but we know there is loss in the system, we simply state 1.5X because we basically know as long as the contacts are clean it's not going to be over 50%, but if the contacts are clean it's likely far less than that.

Last continous discharge, fact is we know they can be pushed because of pulses, but not only that we know some batteries are safer than others. Take the 25r, we know it's a 20+ amp cell, compare that to a 20 amp LG HG2 which is a more strict 20 amp cell and you have a difference in safety. Likewise it's not advisable to push a VTC battery to 30 amps but we know it's possible, it's more a 25amp+ cell than a 30 amp cell. LG HB series are the only true 30amps I know of from the big 3, and even they can be pushed some just again not advisable.

Again, rules are meant to protect those that don't do the research, those that do it will know what they need to do to protect themselves. Doesn't mean tossing a .1Ω coil on a tube mech isn't retarded, just means breaking the rules isn't necessarily stupid, it hopefully just means they know enough to ensure their safety even breaking the rules.

 

[JERUS]

Really @JERUS, I like you and all your posts are spot on but how could you like that my long post of nonsense.

Oh, and that big ass box is the God of all boxes, The Hammer of God v2.

Mainly because I feel that the false representation of hard rules is worse than giving an honest answer. These rules spouted about aren't hard rules, their (as I stated in the previous post) guidelines to limit the uneducated. There is plenty of wiggle room to push beyond them before it becomes a hazard. You just have to know what you're doing.

I'll say it again, These rules are meant to protect people, if you don't understand the reason they were developed and understand how to push things correctly, then don't do it. Simple as that, the rules are meant to help, they're meant to keep people safe, they're a good thing, but as they say "rules are meant to be broken" they are, but only for those that understand why the rules were created and what lies beyond them and how to keep themselves safe when they break them. It's strait up retarded to pull 25 amps from a 20amp battery when you don't understand ohms law or what the differences is between max, pulse and continuous discharge are. You're only going to hurt yourselves and those around you. So follow the rules if you're not absolutely sure you're good.

Hell I push some things, I try weird stuff but always in a theoretical safety, but sometimes I scare myself when I see the outcome and I make changes, but again I understand what went wrong, how to fix it, and make a note of what not to do. I don't go too crazy but like recently I got a triple parallel box, loaded a .14Ω coil on it with 25rs running. I was a bit careful with it, not chain vaping it like I might a regulated, but vaping it regularly. Took the batteries out and noticed a large discrepancy in the voltage charges. Well you bet I cleaned the hell out the thing before I used it again, now it's running nicely, nice even drainage across the 3 batteries. Mistakes happen, and all the more reason to educate yourself and follow the rules, but the rules would have said I'd be safe at a .11Ω coil but because my mod had issues, it was draining a single battery, and that sure as hell would have been bad. But, I knew to test the damn thing before I went nuts on it. Again education > Rules every time.

 

[Gheed]

I could never (ever) put it better myself, and what you stated is the truth.

 

[zdawk]

Oh, and that big ass box is the God of all boxes, The Hammer of God v2.

Wait... you're first mech mod was a HOG v.2?

 

[zdawk]

First, we don't work in continuous discharge, we work in pulses.

at what point would we be crossing over into a CD? like 30 seconds or is the meant more like running a laptop for a few hours? Not 30 second increments?

 

[Gheed]

Wait... you're first mech mod was a HOG v.2?

Yeah. I bought it because they told me it was a limited release and it was the last one they had, that and I really wanted it. It was better than a week before I felt comfortable to use it. The guys at my local B&M told me what was safe but I wanted to know why it was safe before I used it. I've been lurking here for a lot longer than my join date, months probably. I joined to comment on the HOG thread on the unregulated sub but didn't feel it was my place to comment. (guy had his shit all sorts of wrong) Even after my join date it still took months for me to actually post. Of all the things I've seen wrong that people post that I reply to I've never told them what is safe and what is not. I've told them to learn. I feel that is that persons responsibility to find out why or why not it is or is not safe. It's what I did. I see people post on why even own a mech or why vape this way or that and it really pisses me off. for a long time my Rx200 was nothing more than a third ohm meter. I use it now and then but I really love mechs. My Rx200 will die someday but my mechs with TLC will never fail me. It's the only way to go IMO. People will beat their chest on the contrary but I feel they're wrong. I'm happy they're not smoking but they're wrong.

 

[JERUS]

at what point would we be crossing over into a CD? like 30 seconds or is the meant more like running a laptop for a few hours? Not 30 second increments?

I wouldn't consider pulse over a like 6 seconds. Are you really taking 30s drags? Either way, it's not so much about knowing the max/pulse ratings, as much as knowing that you are using pulse ratings. That exceeding the continuous for a few seconds isn't going to blow the battery. The big risk is that especially on tube mechs where the button is on the bottom (set it down and it might fire) you might accidentally have it continuously discharge and that's why that safety precaution is in place. But, be careful with it, always lock it before setting it down and leaving it, take out the batteries when you're not around to watch it for minutes or more, and well, you can push them a bit.

Pulse ratings are more or less useless other than to know it can be pushed. Max discharge is useful only to know that it can be pushed as well. Neither is worth staking your safety on. Both they confirm that your 30 amp might be ok to push to 35amps, or your 20amp may be ok to push to 25amps. That's about it. Again we know a VTC is a continuous 20amp, We've seen tests, but it runs so great at 20 amps and runs not too far off target at 25 and 30 amps that we know it's pretty ok to vape at 30 amps. So when you see people claim it's a 30 amp, well they're wrong and right at the same time. Fact is you shouldn't even think about exceeding and probably shouldn't even get to 30amps on that battery, leave a little head room. Likewise the 25r is about the safest battery given you respect it, that there is. People have hard shorted it and no boom, just lots and lots of heat. Doesn't mean you should be dumb with it, but going 20-25amps with it is pretty damn safe. Then the LG HG series and Samsung 30q (15 amp rated officially, tested as a 20 amp) is one that if you exceed 20 amps you're asking for trouble. Again, education, knowing what you can and can't push. Knowing the max/pulse tests people have done are helpful but they aren't true ratings.

Ratings require repeatable tests, and pulse/max tests require literally killing or potentially exploding batteries in mass quantities and even then every batch is different and erring on the side of safety is always recommended. So they aren't worth following as rules. But we know that these Big 3 companies (LG/Samsung/Sony) test their batteries for quality before shipping and discard those that are unworthy. So we can trust them to be at least mostly consistent.

I'm rambling a bit, but the point is there is no hard rule to pushing as much as knowing that you can eek in a little extra current. Like I said, 25rs seem to be capable of about 5 amps more than their rating(and a damn lot of cases pushing them further, just not recommended as even if no boom, it'll damage the battery and lead to lower lifespans). 30qs are continuously capable of +5 current, and VTCs while rated 30 officially are tested by Mooch (worth trusting) at 20 amps continuous but we know it's capable of 30 amps just not the best idea to push it that far, better to grab HBs. \

In the end breaking the rules is entering the Danger Zone, better be ready to protect yourself if you do, but doesn't mean those that do aren't more than capable of doing so. I just hate to see people who are pushing "the rules" labeled as stupid, when they're doing so intelligently. It's like a 185lb running back charging down a 250lb linebacker, dumb right? well that 185lb guy knows to lower himself and avoid the brunt of the force at the last second to avoid any injury. Just because it seems stupid doesn't mean the person doing it is necessarily dumb, just if that guy goes head to head with the lineback, well then he's retarded, or will be soon.

 

[Gheed]

at what point would we be crossing over into a CD? like 30 seconds or is the meant more like running a laptop for a few hours? Not 30 second increments?

See my post above. (it'll take me 20 minutes to type this so it's possible for someone to have already answered this question) Read Mooches Battery Blog. He is God for the most part when it comes to battery safety. He would say a pulse is 5 seconds on 30 seconds off. Just Google him and do your own research.
Battery Mooch.

 

[JERUS]

Yeah. I bought it because they told me it was a limited release and it was the last one they had, that and I really wanted it. It was better than a week before I felt comfortable to use it. The guys at my local B&M told me what was safe but I wanted to know why it was safe before I used it. I've been lurking here for a lot longer than my join date, months probably. I joined to comment on the HOG thread on the unregulated sub but didn't feel it was my place to comment. (guy had his shit all sorts of wrong) Even after my join date it still took months for me to actually post. Of all the things I've seen wrong that people post that I reply to I've never told them what is safe and what is not. I've told them to learn. I feel that is that persons responsibility to find out why or why not it is or is not safe. It's what I did. I see people post on why even own a mech or why vape this way or that and it really pisses me off. for a long time my Rx200 was nothing more than a third ohm meter. I use it now and then but I really love mechs. My Rx200 will die someday but my mechs with TLC will never fail me. It's the only way to go IMO. People will beat their chest on the contrary but I feel they're wrong. I'm happy they're not smoking but they're wrong.

Educate educate educate, it can't be emphasized enough. We literally are playing with potential fire (and boom fire not ohh look at that fire). The rules are simply an equivalent to "don't touch the fire" not "well if you keep enough distance you're fine or if you're quick in going into it the heat will never really damage you"... yes I'm crazy and I have jump through fires before for funsies, thank god I never tripped and landed in though

 

[Gheed]

I wouldn't consider pulse over a like 6 seconds. Are you really taking 30s drags? Either way, it's not so much about knowing the max/pulse ratings, as much as knowing that you are using pulse ratings. That exceeding the continuous for a few seconds isn't going to blow the battery. The big risk is that especially on tube mechs where the button is on the bottom (set it down and it might fire) you might accidentally have it continuously discharge and that's why that safety precaution is in place. But, be careful with it, always lock it before setting it down and leaving it, take out the batteries when you're not around to watch it for minutes or more, and well, you can push them a bit.

Pulse ratings are more or less useless other than to know it can be pushed. Max discharge is useful only to know that it can be pushed as well. Neither is worth staking your safety on. Both they confirm that your 30 amp might be ok to push to 35amps, or your 20amp may be ok to push to 25amps. That's about it. Again we know a VTC is a continuous 20amp, We've seen tests, but it runs so great at 20 amps and runs not too far off target at 25 and 30 amps that we know it's pretty ok to vape at 30 amps. So when you see people claim it's a 30 amp, well they're wrong and right at the same time. Fact is you shouldn't even think about exceeding and probably shouldn't even get to 30amps on that battery, leave a little head room. Likewise the 25r is about the safest battery given you respect it, that there is. People have hard shorted it and no boom, just lots and lots of heat. Doesn't mean you should be dumb with it, but going 20-25amps with it is pretty damn safe. Then the LG HG series and Samsung 30q (15 amp rated officially, tested as a 20 amp) is one that if you exceed 20 amps you're asking for trouble. Again, education, knowing what you can and can't push. Knowing the max/pulse tests people have done are helpful but they aren't true ratings.

Ratings require repeatable tests, and pulse/max tests require literally killing or potentially exploding batteries in mass quantities and even then every batch is different and erring on the side of safety is always recommended. So they aren't worth following as rules. But we know that these Big 3 companies (LG/Samsung/Sony) test their batteries for quality before shipping and discard those that are unworthy. So we can trust them to be at least mostly consistent.

I'm rambling a bit, but the point is there is no hard rule to pushing as much as knowing that you can eek in a little extra current. Like I said, 25rs seem to be capable of about 5 amps more than their rating(and a damn lot of cases pushing them further, just not recommended as even if no boom, it'll damage the battery and lead to lower lifespans). 30qs are continuously capable of +5 current, and VTCs while rated 30 officially are tested by Mooch (worth trusting) at 20 amps continuous but we know it's capable of 30 amps just not the best idea to push it that far, better to grab HBs. \

In the end breaking the rules is entering the Danger Zone, better be ready to protect yourself if you do, but doesn't mean those that do aren't more than capable of doing so. I just hate to see people who are pushing "the rules" labeled as stupid, when they're doing so intelligently. It's like a 185lb running back charging down a 250lb linebacker, dumb right? well that 185lb guy knows to lower himself and avoid the brunt of the force at the last second to avoid any injury. Just because it seems stupid doesn't mean the person doing it is necessarily dumb, just if that guy goes head to head with the lineback, well then he's retarded, or will be soon.

You should change your name to JERUStheELOQUENT.

 

[JERUS]

You should change your name to JERUStheELOQUENT.

Very nice compliment and I appreciate it, but I'm hardly entitled to that. I pass that to my teachers who instilled me with a good vocabulary and writing style, one in particular who made writing click for me, unfortunately it was the last year I was actually required to write outside of purely factual lists of spec sheets.

 

[zdawk]

Yes, I've the largest lungs and must rip for 30 seconds... nah.. I'm a 5-7 second puller at most! Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to mechs or anything, I know because of their simplistic nature they last much longer than regulated devices.. I'm here to learn and by having conversations like these, I am learning what I need to know.

I agree its about educating yourself, but as with the nature of the internet it's difficult to know what you can trust and what you cant. There are many opinions on here, and every where. People are very convincing and passionate about their point of view. I hope others learn from this conversation too.

I see that there is a "safe way" to push the limits, but I'd still love to know why to do it? Other than the poetically put, "I do what I want.." is it the old more surface area available at lower ohm builds? And why nichrome over Kanthal in terms of resistance, and in relation to surface area to resistance? Or is it because you feel so safe at super subohms, wth not?

 

[JERUS]

Yes, I've the largest lungs and must rip for 30 seconds... nah.. I'm a 5-7 second puller at most! Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to mechs or anything, I know because of their simplistic nature they last much longer than regulated devices.. I'm here to learn and by having conversations like these, I am learning what I need to know.

I agree its about educating yourself, but as with the nature of the internet it's difficult to know what you can trust and what you cant. There are many opinions on here, and every where. People are very convincing and passionate about their point of view. I hope others learn from this conversation too.

I see that there is a "safe way" to push the limits, but I'd still love to know why to do it? Other than the poetically put, "I do what I want.." is it the old more surface area available at lower ohm builds? And why nichrome over Kanthal in terms of resistance, and in relation to surface area to resistance? Or is it because you feel so safe at super subohms, wth not?

Actually while for a while I believed the "lower ohms is better, you can build bigger coils" was right, having my Noisy Cricket changed that opinion, I'm not even pushing that bad boy and it's just a god damn wonderful vape. 28g Fused Claptons at .48Ω and it rivals most any of my builds. The reason I push things sometimes is simply wattage, but I don't always push things. Quite simply it's on my unregulated tubes that I push things. I like the feel of a tube, it's nice, but it's tough to get the right wattage. The regulated options simply don't push the power to a level I want. So I'm left in the situation of having to push. So I have great batteries (LG HB series). and feel perfectly fine pushing them a bit. Of my unregulated mods those are the only ones I like to edge up and I don't use them often. My Tres Equis I have set up with a .14Ω build, that means a potential 30amps while a "by the rules" 40 amp capability, and realistically it's only going to pull something like 26 amps considering voltage drop. Well below standards but still a pleasant vape. I plan on exploring the possibilities there but I do try to follow the rules and only push when I need to to satiate my desires, but not in a stupid way. Likewise my NC runs 25rs or VTCs at 17.5amps and it's damn near perfect. So it's not so much a desire to push the limits as much as sometimes a need to create as situation I want for the overall package I have. But, that's why I try to not use my tube mechs so much, its' just nice to have them, they feel nice and I do enjoy taking them out and vaping on them sometimes. I should probably just get some 26650 tubes but ehh, I'm not so stupid as to push them to the point that I need that. Hell even my protected unregulated mod (CF mod) still allows me to get a decent vape (over .14Ω requirement) without shutting itself down.

 

[JERUS]

I'll add, that when I do push what's recommended, I do so by myself. Even though I'm confident it won't be an issue and don't feel I'm at risk at all, I simply don't like the idea that I may potentially put others at risk for my own quality of vaping experience. I'm 99.99% sure the builds I use won't cause an issue, but it's not worth it to me to put another at risk of even .01%, and that's what bugs me the most about people who push the limits, especially in dumb ways. It's not only you at risk, but those around you.

 

[Scratch88683]

Actually while for a while I believed the "lower ohms is better, you can build bigger coils" was right, having my Noisy Cricket changed that opinion, I'm not even pushing that bad boy and it's just a god damn wonderful vape. 28g Fused Claptons at .48Ω and it rivals most any of my builds. The reason I push things sometimes is simply wattage, but I don't always push things. Quite simply it's on my unregulated tubes that I push things. I like the feel of a tube, it's nice, but it's tough to get the right wattage. The regulated options simply don't push the power to a level I want. So I'm left in the situation of having to push. So I have great batteries (LG HB series). and feel perfectly fine pushing them a bit. Of my unregulated mods those are the only ones I like to edge up and I don't use them often. My Tres Equis I have set up with a .14Ω build, that means a potential 30amps while a "by the rules" 40 amp capability, and realistically it's only going to pull something like 26 amps considering voltage drop. Well below standards but still a pleasant vape. I plan on exploring the possibilities there but I do try to follow the rules and only push when I need to to satiate my desires, but not in a stupid way. Likewise my NC runs 25rs or VTCs at 17.5amps and it's damn near perfect. So it's not so much a desire to push the limits as much as sometimes a need to create as situation I want for the overall package I have. But, that's why I try to not use my tube mechs so much, its' just nice to have them, they feel nice and I do enjoy taking them out and vaping on them sometimes. I should probably just get some 26650 tubes but ehh, I'm not so stupid as to push them to the point that I need that. Hell even my protected unregulated mod (CF mod) still allows me to get a decent vape (over .14Ω requirement) without shutting itself down.

What's the full specs on your fused Claptons for the Cricket? I love fused Claptons but when I'm having trouble getting over .3 ohm's and that's with like 13 wraps which barely fit in most of my cricket compatible rda's (velocity,twisted messes,indestructible) I always make the 2×26g nichrome 80/36g or 40g kanthal. I'd love to get a reasonable sized fused Claptons in my cricket. Also want that rafale x rda with the neutral middle posts for series builds then I won't have to worry about it.

 

[JERUS]

What's the full specs on your fused Claptons for the Cricket? I love fused Claptons but when I'm having trouble getting over .3 ohm's and that's with like 13 wraps which barely fit in most of my cricket compatible rda's (velocity,twisted messes,indestructible) I always make the 2×26g nichrome 80/36g or 40g kanthal. I'd love to get a reasonable sized fused Claptons in my cricket. Also want that rafale x rda with the neutral middle posts for series builds then I won't have to worry about it.

28g cores 40g wraps all Kanthal A1, 3.5mm ID 7 or 8 wraps, I forget and my eyes can't count right now especially with how gunked they are. That's the key though 26g cores would be tough to get high enough, they'd have to be pretty damn big coils.

 

[wheelie]

On my part it was ignorance, but I was also following the example of what appeared to reputable experienced builders.

Perhaps you did not follow along well enough to get your bad experience. Why judge others? I have enough in my life to worry about that leaves no time to worry about what others do. CHEERS!

 

[inspects]

Yeah. I bought it because they told me it was a limited release and it was the last one they had, that and I really wanted it. It was better than a week before I felt comfortable to use it. The guys at my local B&M told me what was safe but I wanted to know why it was safe before I used it. I've been lurking here for a lot longer than my join date, months probably. I joined to comment on the HOG thread on the unregulated sub but didn't feel it was my place to comment. (guy had his shit all sorts of wrong) Even after my join date it still took months for me to actually post. Of all the things I've seen wrong that people post that I reply to I've never told them what is safe and what is not. I've told them to learn. I feel that is that persons responsibility to find out why or why not it is or is not safe. It's what I did. I see people post on why even own a mech or why vape this way or that and it really pisses me off. for a long time my Rx200 was nothing more than a third ohm meter. I use it now and then but I really love mechs. My Rx200 will die someday but my mechs with TLC will never fail me. It's the only way to go IMO. People will beat their chest on the contrary but I feel they're wrong. I'm happy they're not smoking but they're wrong.

Good on you for asking, most don't, and end up in the hospital.

 

[Scratch88683]

28g cores 40g wraps all Kanthal A1, 3.5mm ID 7 or 8 wraps, I forget and my eyes can't count right now especially with how gunked they are. That's the key though 26g cores would be tough to get high enough, they'd have to be pretty damn big coils.

Thank you very much I'm gonna have to try that tomorrow. it was a real pain in the ass trying to fit 14 wrap fused Claptons
Into the velocity and the indestructible lol. I stopped bothering and put regular claptons in it.

 

[Mythical_OD]

Experienced guys who know what theyre doing and know how the stuff works can get away with building low and "risking" it a little, because they know how stuff operates, what the batteries can handle, and all that good stuff.

The rules on building and batteries is more in place to stop a total newb from blowing their face off with a device they shouldnt be fucking with while only having 5 minutes of googling under their belt. Your story is prime example. A guy goes into a shop and winds up walking out with a device thats way way too advanced for a new user because the sales guys wanted a good sale and make some money, not caring about safety. They end up just slapping a coil in it without knowing what it is and blam, blow up their eyeballs. Those are the ones that need to see the big bolded warnings and rules that are put out there on every "How to Vape" site.

Just a week or so ago some guy came here asking about ohms and series mods because his local shop sold him a Noisy Cricket series mod and then put some 0.15 coils in it for him before sending him packing. He wondered why his batteries were getting so hot and the vapor was burning his mouth. Thats the kind of shit the rules are made to stop immediately before someone gets hurt before they are experienced enough to know beter.

 

[JERUS]

Experienced guys who know what theyre doing and know how the stuff works can get away with building low and "risking" it a little, because they know how stuff operates, what the batteries can handle, and all that good stuff.

The rules on building and batteries is more in place to stop a total newb from blowing their face off with a device they shouldnt be fucking with while only having 5 minutes of googling under their belt. Your story is prime example. A guy goes into a shop and winds up walking out with a device thats way way too advanced for a new user because the sales guys wanted a good sale and make some money, not caring about safety. They end up just slapping a coil in it without knowing what it is and blam, blow up their eyeballs. Those are the ones that need to see the big bolded warnings and rules that are put out there on every "How to Vape" site.

Just a week or so ago some guy came here asking about ohms and series mods because his local shop sold him a Noisy Cricket series mod and then put some 0.15 coils in it for him before sending him packing. He wondered why his batteries were getting so hot and the vapor was burning his mouth. Thats the kind of shit the rules are made to stop immediately before someone gets hurt before they are experienced enough to know beter.

That's the thing that really bugs me, is when these vape shops send people out with pipe bombs. All I can say is if I ran a shop I'd not sell a mech without a small quiz on Ohm's Law and troubleshooting, then make sure to give them an in depth review of how to take the thing apart for cleaning. Basically I'd be that guy that newer vapers would hate . Want a mech, you better know what you're doing. If you don't, here's a starter kit, come back when you have an hour to learn some stuff.

 

[Scratch88683]

Experienced guys who know what theyre doing and know how the stuff works can get away with building low and "risking" it a little, because they know how stuff operates, what the batteries can handle, and all that good stuff.

The rules on building and batteries is more in place to stop a total newb from blowing their face off with a device they shouldnt be fucking with while only having 5 minutes of googling under their belt. Your story is prime example. A guy goes into a shop and winds up walking out with a device thats way way too advanced for a new user because the sales guys wanted a good sale and make some money, not caring about safety. They end up just slapping a coil in it without knowing what it is and blam, blow up their eyeballs. Those are the ones that need to see the big bolded warnings and rules that are put out there on every "How to Vape" site.

Just a week or so ago some guy came here asking about ohms and series mods because his local shop sold him a Noisy Cricket series mod and then put some 0.15 coils in it for him before sending him packing. He wondered why his batteries were getting so hot and the vapor was burning his mouth. Thats the kind of shit the rules are made to stop immediately before someone gets hurt before they are experienced enough to know beter.

Wow .15 coils in a cricket that's insane. The shop should be shut down...

 

[JERUS]

Thank you very much I'm gonna have to try that tomorrow. it was a real pain in the ass trying to fit 14 wrap fused Claptons
Into the velocity and the indestructible lol. I stopped bothering and put regular claptons in it.

If you have swivels it's not too bad, but it's what made me jump to them. Still prefer the 'freehand' method when I'm working with lower gauges, 26g is where I'm sometimes lazy and use the swivels, and sometimes not and prefer the freehand. I can seem to do up a pair better/faster with freehand than with swivels, but maybe I just need more practice /shrug.

 

[Scratch88683]

If you have swivels it's not too bad, but it's what made me jump to them. Still prefer the 'freehand' method when I'm working with lower gauges, 26g is where I'm sometimes lazy and use the swivels, and sometimes not and prefer the freehand. I can seem to do up a pair better/faster with freehand than with swivels, but maybe I just need more practice /shrug.

Yea I have swivels since I started using them I haven't gone back to free hand I can bust out around 2 1/2 feet of fused Claptons in like 5-10 minutes. I don't know why I haven't tried using thinner core wires lol

 

[Mythical_OD]

Wow .15 coils in a cricket that's insane. The shop should be shut down...

For real, and thats just a sample of whats really going on. Most of these stories we hear about of people blowing their lips off and shit are usually a result of something similar. Someone who walks into a vape shop wanting to blow big clouds because they saw their buddy doing it or saw it in a youtube video ends up walking out with something they cant properly handle because the guy behind the counter cares more about profit than they care about not terribly disfiguring someone for life.

It gives vaping in general a bad name and a dangerous image. Personally I didnt even touch a mech mod until about 3 1/2-4 months after I started vaping. And even then, with all the knowledge Id soaked up and knowing all the ins and outs, I was still kinda hesitant because I know what can happen. You put one in the hands of someone who just assumes they are totally safe and thinks of batteries as AAAs or something and bad things are gonna happen. I mean really, how many of us knew batteries could explode violently like that before we started vaping? I sure as hell didnt. Batteries to me were just the things I put in my remote or mouse and never even heard of one hurting someone.

 

[JERUS]

Yea I have swivels since I started using them I haven't gone back to free hand I can bust out around 2 1/2 feet of fused Claptons in like 5-10 minutes. I don't know why I haven't tried using thinner core wires lol

Outside of parallel/tube mechs personally I think the low ohm thing is a bit overrated. Not to say it's bad, but more that it isn't all it's chalked up to be. As long as you get that surface area, wide coils, and good wicking you have get a damn fine vape.

 

[Scratch88683]

For real, and thats just a sample of whats really going on. Most of these stories we hear about of people blowing their lips off and shit are usually a result of something similar. Someone who walks into a vape shop wanting to blow big clouds because they saw their buddy doing it or saw it in a youtube video ends up walking out with something they cant properly handle because the guy behind the counter cares more about profit than they care about not terribly disfiguring someone for life.

It gives vaping in general a bad name and a dangerous image. Personally I didnt even touch a mech mod until about 3 1/2-4 months after I started vaping. And even then, with all the knowledge Id soaked up and knowing all the ins and outs, I was still kinda hesitant because I know what can happen. You put one in the hands of someone who just assumes they are totally safe and thinks of batteries as AAAs or something and bad things are gonna happen. I mean really, how many of us knew batteries could explode violently like that before we started vaping? I sure as hell didnt. Batteries to me were just the things I put in my remote or mouse and never even heard of one hurting someone.

I 100% agree. I was the same way too I don't think I got my first mech until about 4 months after I started vaping and was super carefull. What's even worse about that story is the shop installed the .15 coils it wasn't even the dude buying it. That shop has got to be one of most irresponsible shops I ever heard of. Shops like that are going to get vaping banned. People shouldn't even think about getting a noisy cricket until they have at least a few months with a regular mech mod too many things can go wrong between the hybrid connector and ohm's law safety. Even when I bought my Noisy Cricket at my local b&m because I didn't want to wait for it ordering online the guy who knows me made sure I new about series builds and suggested I start with a .8 ohm coil they over charged the shit out of it think I paid $50 knowing I could get one for $20 online. But at least they made sure I knew what I was doing...

 

[kevin littell]

of all of the numbers I look at on the calculator the one I pay the most attention too is the "head room " percent on the battery for a particular build...



Maybe its 32 years as a repair tech...Maybe its the military electronics back ground....Perhaps I dont trust Asian spec's on the batteries, but I never build without 30% headroom on the batteries because I dont trust them.


"finest technology the cheapest Chinese vendor will supply sums up 99 percent of the vaping technology on the market.


I'm not willing to bet the skin on my hands or the teeth in my mouth to the quality of the current equipment....


Now, if Ratheon Marine, Hewlett Packard (defense division) or Rockwell Collins wanted to make vape gear ( all but one of these companies are out of business) Id trust the spec's...But it aint happening.


In a world of "make it as inexpensively so they will buy it", why would you ever NOT leave 30-40% headroom on a build???


And why would you build without knowing what "head room" is on a battery ?

 

[zdawk]

Perhaps you did not follow along well enough to get your bad experience. Why judge others?

I didn't really have a bad experience. I've been vaping for about a year now, and I started on a mech, when I found out that I had no idea what I was doing by talking to other vapers, I bought a regulated device with in the week. since then I've jumped from a ipv mini, to a kbox, over to a tesla, to a sigeli, to a snow wolf, then decided I wanted to try mech's again, now being some what confident in my builds. I wanted the best quality not a clone and ended up with a big rig v.2. My shop told me nothing below a .18 and you should be okay, but above .2 is best. I started seeing guys demo'in atty's and mods, and crazy coils on supper low builds on tube mechs (at this point I had stopped using the big rig because I was playing with builds too much, I didn't on have an ohm reader for my hybrid rda, so I just ended up using rda's i could slap on my regulated devices to get an ohm reading) and stumbled across that noisy cricket post just referenced. Thats when I realized, ohh shit these guys are crazy building that low. I'm not really trying to judge anyone, even though I just called them crazy, I'm just saying it's really hard to decipher what's safe and what isn't when you have the guys who own shops and or seem to look like they know what they're doing and your like ohhh okay, that kinda makes sense.. then you do some research and your like, well I'm glad I didn't try that (especially not on a tube mech mod).

Looking at objectively though, I wouldn't watch some dude jump a 30 ft motocross jump and think because I have a motorcycle I can do that to.. Perhaps it was my bad to not respect the amount of knoweledge that goes into performing a "stunt" like building so low..

To each his own, but even here we're getting people on both sides of the fence saying.... theres no reason to ever do that.. and the other side saying... well I do what I want, I know the risks..

 

[wheelie]

I didn't really have a bad experience. I've been vaping for about a year now, and I started on a mech, when I found out that I had no idea what I was doing by talking to other vapers, I bought a regulated device with in the week. since then I've jumped from a ipv mini, to a kbox, over to a tesla, to a sigeli, to a snow wolf, then decided I wanted to try mech's again, now being some what confident in my builds. I wanted the best quality not a clone and ended up with a big rig v.2. My shop told me nothing below a .18 and you should be okay, but above .2 is best. I started seeing guys demo'in atty's and mods, and crazy coils on supper low builds on tube mechs (at this point I had stopped using the big rig because I was playing with builds too much, I didn't on have an ohm reader for my hybrid rda, so I just ended up using rda's i could slap on my regulated devices to get an ohm reading) and stumbled across that noisy cricket post just referenced. Thats when I realized, ohh shit these guys are crazy building that low. I'm not really trying to judge anyone, even though I just called them crazy, I'm just saying it's really hard to decipher what's safe and what isn't when you have the guys who own shops and or seem to look like they know what they're doing and your like ohhh okay, that kinda makes sense.. then you do some research and your like, well I'm glad I didn't try that (especially not on a tube mech mod).

Looking at objectively though, I wouldn't watch some dude jump a 30 ft motocross jump and think because I have a motorcycle I can do that to.. Perhaps it was my bad to not respect the amount of knoweledge that goes into performing a "stunt" like building so low..

To each his own, but even here we're getting people on both sides of the fence saying.... theres no reason to ever do that.. and the other side saying... well I do what I want, I know the risks..

I can agree with what you said here. CHEERS!

 

[martnargh]

Ive done .08 on single tube... this was a while back maybe a year or two ago....
You should consider the idea that most venting occurs from 3 of the following human errors:
1. Cells in pocket making contact with coins or keys.
2. Autofire/jammed button in pocket (or even out of pocket)
3. Peopke using hybrids with 510 pins that dont extend far enough, particularly with tanks. I believe this one to be a fan favorite.

Very few are from suber sub ohm.... before we used trustfire or firesomething or somethingfire cells, it was common, i think those are 10a cells, and vaping under an ohm was considered stupid amd dangerous. If you were vaping .8 or .9 you were living on the edge.

People like to fear monger, with good reason too. The noobs causing these accidents are what the media is using as fodder in anti vaping campaigns.

Though its not really a "safety first" practice, manu sub ohm vapers sor cloud chasers or comp guys will run .0something builds on a single vtc3 or vtc4 or now on hb series cells...
These arent all day vapes, these are 1-2 second pulls two or 3 times and switch cell vapes...
So yeah, thats the nature of the beast.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

[MyMagicMist]

Thought I would chime in expressing gratitude for The Rules. For me, I think of The Rules as a guideline. "Here's what our experiences show us is safe ...", you can follow this or not but if you don't and it bites you in the butt, don't say you were not told properly. The Rules exist because someone else has gone forward and figured something out, then, asserted it in a way others can benefit.

I got into using a mech a little bit ago. It is a cheaply made one. At present, not using it because the positive contact washer on the fire button is fouled. Yes, I could probably replace the washer. It looks to be a simple matter of finding a suitable washer, soldering it on in place of the fouled one. I have learned from personal experience things are not always as they seem. This means hearing a little voice in my head, "are you sure it is something that simple, maybe you'll botch it worse and then big trouble." So, I plan to defer to someone with more electronics experience than me to fix it, if it gets fixed at all.

When I started into using mechs it was because I had read over a bunch of Mooch's battery safety information dumps. I say dumps not as belittling, you could say tomes or libraries if you want. Having read it a lot confused me a bit. It was so much material to digest. Someone helped me though in teaching me the basics of Ohm's Law. I still have a text here which I refer back to in figuring out the formula. I also let Steam Engine help me do calculations and I make sure of having at least the required 35-40% head room on batteries.

Some of the first coils I made up when used in dual coil situations came to read 0.60 or just a little under that at no lower than 0.55 ohms. I feel confident that a fellow using the handle Super X Drifter, has a very good idea what he is doing from some experience. I also feel he will not attempt steering someone in the wrong direction. He had mentioned using dual coils, and explained about net ohms readings in one of his videos. So, this confirmed I was apparently on track.

Presently I'm using a 1.25 ohm coil that has read between 1.25 to 1.50 ohms at different times. I looked through more info and found coils can and do fluctuate. From my reading of other people's experiences I learned that where my coil was roaming, it was relatively safe and possibly fairly common due to a few factors. Coils get warm and expand. Batteries have drop off rates where they lose power to 'push' coils. Juice can gunk up coils causing roaming. My point being it is good having The Rules, other people's experiences to have guidance on what works and what is plain nuts.

 

[JERUS]

Presently I'm using a 1.25 ohm coil that has read between 1.25 to 1.50 ohms at different times. I looked through more info and found coils can and do fluctuate. From my reading of other people's experiences I learned that where my coil was roaming, it was relatively safe and possibly fairly common due to a few factors. Coils get warm and expand. Batteries have drop off rates where they lose power to 'push' coils. Juice can gunk up coils causing roaming. My point being it is good having The Rules, other people's experiences to have guidance on what works and what is plain nuts.

Coils can and do fluctuate their resistance but that's a pretty big range. I'd double check your connections. The TC wires fluctuate more, specifically with heat, but I don't think I've seen a range over ~.1Ω, so I may be wrong just seems a little off.

If you were vaping .8 or .9 you were living on the edge.

Thanks, now this is stuck in my head:

 

[martnargh]

Coils can and do fluctuate their resistance but that's a pretty big range. I'd double check your connections. The TC wires fluctuate more, specifically with heat, but I don't think I've seen a range over ~.1Ω, so I may be wrong just seems a little off.


Thanks, now this is stuck in my head:

Mine too hahaha
Also this song comes to mind for some reason.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

[zaroba]

It's not always about pushing limits or ignorance.

I use under 0.2 ohm builds on my Sig 150.
If I was into mechs, I would still be using under 0.2 ohm builds.

Over a decade of working with my hands in a warehouse environment has resulted in my hands being big and having a pretty strong grip (my shoulders will give out long before my hands when it comes to gripping something heavy), so it's easy for me to ruin coils made with thin wire. Simple actions such as writing result in my hands cramping up in just a few mins and I have already had carpel tunnel surgery in both wrists. I need thick gauges of wire that offer resistance to bending or it's a hassle for me to try and make a coil.

 

[Mythical_OD]

And another thing is tastes change, peoples desires change, its just nature man.

When I first started vaping I was using a 1.5 ohm coil and vaping it at 15 watts. 20 watts was pushing it for me lol. I was saying "This is all I need, Ill never get into that sub ohm stuff and high watt stuff" and I looked at people building down 0.3, 0.2, and lower and was just like "Why? Whats the point? You can get decent vape at high watts" But shit, tastes change. I started using 1.2 coils, then tried a 0.5 coil, and as my throat and lungs got used to directly inhaling I went higher and higher with wattage and lower and lower with resistance. Now I rarely use anything over a 0.3-0.4 and thats just premade coils from companies that dont make em any lower. If Im building an RDA/RTA Im shooting for a 0.2 (on the Cricket I go for a 0.5-0.6) and usually vaping it around 75-110 watts, somewhere in that range. From 1.5 ohm and 15 watts to 0.2 and 110 watts, Im proof shit changes. And now Im looking at getting an hOhm Wrecker so I can go lower than that.

 

[martnargh]

Thats another good point. I remember when the mvps started coming out and everyone was like woah 12watts! Then 20! Amazing.
The noobs got it good now they coming in with a 200w tc device for 40 bucks.
I remember paying 40 bucks for a v2 carto battery and had to buy one every 2 or 3 months cause they crapped out fairly quick... night and day from nowadays.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

[Lost]

I'm honestly just looking for any offerings of clarification or explanations

My lame theory-slash-two-cents. Ohm's law and battery performance are invisible concepts. It leads to a false sense of security. You can't see a battery being stressed, and rewrapped/b-stock/low-end batts can still look pretty. Maybe your first visual introduction to the dangers is a venting 18650 or an explosion.

This video is pretty entertaining. If you just want to see an Efest purple "35 amp" batt venting from a 14-amp draw, fast forward to 4:15.

Please don't shoot the messenger. I know he starts the video with the cliched vaping cloud. And I will never understand why he was using Efests in the first place. But I lean toward believing he actually had a batt explode. He's legitimately pissed, and his hands are shaking during the on-cam test.

 

[zdawk]

early on I had a pair of efest 3500 mah, a bagillion Amp rating: I was like "hell yea these must be the best batteries ever just look at them specs!" Luckily the wrapper failed pretty quickly and I retired them waiting to re-wrap them and before I got around to it I found out they were pretty dangerous! Something was looking out for me!