DIY Nic Salts.

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid - Recipes' started by FrostyMtl, May 12, 2017.

  1. FrostyMtl

    FrostyMtl Member For 3 Years

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    My experimentation w Nic salts.
    Since I reside in Canada, I cannot buy Nic in salt formulation from U.S. suppliers so I decided to DIY Nic salts.

    This was my second try, it worked:
    IMG_1185.PNG

    This was my first try which sucked:
    IMG_1184.PNG

    The successful, version with a 10% benzoic acid solution has space for about 20% flavoring.

    This ejuice formulation should only be used with low powered Juul, MyJet type devices.

    The 100 mg/ml Nic solution used here is a regular NicSelect freebase solution.

    At first without doing any research, I though that heat was needed to create the salts, it turns out that the reaction is instantaneous.
    Heat does help to dissolve solids though.

    Sourced the Benzoic acid on Amazon.com:

    Benzoic Acid, Guaranteed Reagent. ACS Grade. (500 g)
    Ships from and sold by Medix Corp..

    P.S.
    I am not affiliated with Medix Corps in any way.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
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  2. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve ....
     
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  3. FrostyMtl

    FrostyMtl Member For 3 Years

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    To make an ejuice that can refill Juul type pods.

    Your laws regarding vaping in the U.S. paint a pretty dismal picture where all vaping devices in the future will be like the Juul.
    I hope that ours laws will not mirror them but my country has a tendency to mimic the U.S.

    If that is the case, I would like to refill those pods with my own DIY.

    Will post my Juul Creme Brule clone recipe soon if there is any interest.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
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  4. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    can't you use the nic salts straight up?...I was wondering why you were adding citric acid?
     
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  5. FrostyMtl

    FrostyMtl Member For 3 Years

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    The acid is what makes the salt.

    Can't import Nude Nic salts or Nic from any other U.S. supplier to Canada.
    If found, it will get seized.

    (Was adding citric because I could not find benzoic at that time).
    Citric acid is a weak acid.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
  6. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    for fucksakes, damn politicians.....you guys got it rough...I've also been reading about your various laws against free speech ..it's a bit scary...is there a black market yet of people bring in nic from the states.
     
  7. FrostyMtl

    FrostyMtl Member For 3 Years

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    We can say whatever the fuck we want. :)
    What laws against free speech are you talking about?
    The border agency does not like civilians importing Nic for some weird reason!
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
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  8. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Proffesor Jordan Peterson....fuck the laws... they are unjust.
     
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  9. FrostyMtl

    FrostyMtl Member For 3 Years

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    Your right!
    U know what?
    Some of my fav U.S. suppliers are simply vanishing. Going out of business.
    IBTanked, Provape, MyVapeJuice are just some examples.
    Who knows, perhaps next month I won't be able to buy any DIYFS Holy Vanilla?
     
  10. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I'm hoping that Britian will lead us out of it..that their welcoming attitude toward vaping will start to expose to the world how insane it is to criminalize vaping.Trump seems to be alot more open to allowing the industry to flourish, but I know what you mean a year ago there were half a dozen vape shops near me...now they are all closing...alot of the best european modders are closing down beacuse of the EU laws are so draconian.
     
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  11. FrostyMtl

    FrostyMtl Member For 3 Years

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    My personal opinion is that vaping saves lives.
    I, for one, have not smoked any stinky in 4 years now.

    Ya, and you know what the worst thing is about the E.U. Laws?
    Inawera reformulated many of their flavoring to comply with those laws and they did not tell anyone that they did so.
    To me, that sounds like a recipe for disaster.
    Who can trust them now?
    I will, try to source my milk chocolate from elsewhere if I can.
     
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  12. FrostyMtl

    FrostyMtl Member For 3 Years

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    Yes and no.
    If the border agency catches a person importing nic by mail order, they will send the Nic back to the sender.
    I don't know what happens if you personally try to bring it across the border on your person.

    Some companies seem to be able to import nic.
    I have no idea if ECTA influence helps in this regard.
    What it boils down to is that some companies seem to be able to import products that contain Nic while normal people cannot.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
  13. Jasonrecio

    Jasonrecio Silver Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    Does nic salts react better at low watts?

    Sent from my HTC Desire 626s using Tapatalk
     
  14. FrostyMtl

    FrostyMtl Member For 3 Years

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    I would presume so because devices like the Juul are not that powerful even if it is temp controlled.
     
  15. Heabob

    Heabob Gold Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Lol, Vaping Bad...GMO Good, go figure...

    Just like everything else in the World today, "Lex Rex".
    Gold rules, and those that have the gold make the rules.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
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  16. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

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    I take it that your benzoic acid is a 10% solution (with the carrier being a 50/50 blend of PG and VG) and that is added at 34.2% to your final mix giving an end 3.4% benzoic acid? I have used citric acid @ 2.7% (36mg/ml) in mine while I await my benzoic acid to arrive.
     
  17. FrostyMtl

    FrostyMtl Member For 3 Years

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    Exactly! 10 grams benzoic acid, 45 grams PG, 45 grams VG.
    Used at 34.2%.
    It simplifies things since the nic base is also a 10% solution.
     
  18. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

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    Thank you for clarifying that ;) Did you work out your benzoic acid percentage by referencing the juul patent? And yes, making a 10% solution does make it easier to get the percentages more accurate :)

    ETA: It appears you may have, paragraph [0087] in that patent correlates well to your 3.4%
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
  19. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    Socialist UK to show us the way?
     
  20. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    With socialized medicine in the UK the govt actually saves money if the citizens are healthier.
    which gives them a vested interest in safer alternatives to smoking.

    With corporate medicine the corporations make billions off of cancer from smoking.
    A notable percentage of those billions comes from Tax dollars...
    And BT and healthcare have good lobbyists....
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
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  21. FrostyMtl

    FrostyMtl Member For 3 Years

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    Tested the solution with super concentrates added for flavor.
    I have to report that the vape is too smooth.
    Not a lot of TH unlike the Juul pods.
    I should cut down on the benzoic acid solution.
    Furthermore, the pH of the original version of the solution was 5, will try to aim for 6.
    Have one steeping with 25% benzoic acid instead of 34.2%, measured its pH and its ~ 6.

    Had problems wicking in the Jull as a refill at 50/50, made the second one at 60/40, PG/VG.

    P.S.
    Vaping original Juul pods, and I am sure that there is PGA in there, would help with the TH but I don't want to add some to my liquid.
     
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  22. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

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    Interesting ... how are you measuring the pH of the liquid?
     
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  23. FrostyMtl

    FrostyMtl Member For 3 Years

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    Adding 3 drops of the solution to be tested to 5 ml distilled water &

    Using this:
    Digital pH tester

    And this:
    Hydrion pH paper


    Adding a bit of informations about bases used:
    Coop Coco USP VG: Pure, thick, coconut derived. I like it a lot!
    Coop Coco USP PG; Its PG, as long as its USP.

    The 34.2% benzoic acid eliquid was made with The Broke Vaper Nicselect 100 mg/ml, 50/50 nic base.

    The 25% benzoic acid eliquid was made with Vaper BC 100 mg/ml, 50/50 nic base.

    Had similar results with both, they are both very good bases.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2017
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  24. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I really want to commend you for your experiments, it really exemplifies the spirit of which vaping was born from...I'd really like to beg for a couple of things.1) a tutorial on how you make the salts with links to your suppliers of benzonic acid...
    2) are there any health effects that you know of concerning inhalation of benzonic acid.
    3) is the use of distilled water really necessary or can the acid be dissolved in either PG or VG.


    thanks again.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2017
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  25. FrostyMtl

    FrostyMtl Member For 3 Years

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    I read the following article before even attempting this:

    Study titled “Benzene formation in e-cigarettes” found that air has more benzene than e-cigs
    By Dr Farsalinos

    Remember that Nic salt eliquids are intended to be used with low powered, high Ohm, devices such as the iCare, MyJet and Juul.

    Distilled water is only used to test the pH of the eliquid.

    To make the benzoic acid solution:
    10 grams benzoic acid, 45 grams PG, 45 grams VG.
    I soaked the solutions bottle in a hot water bath (from the tap) for one hour, heat and time will make the solids dissolve.

    Benzoic Acid, Guaranteed Reagent. ACS Grade. (500 g)
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
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  26. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

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    Ahh, thanks for that. I did find pH testers similar to the one you have listed, I was just a bit hesitant on the accuracy and quality. Off to order one now ;)
     
  27. FrostyMtl

    FrostyMtl Member For 3 Years

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    Hey GT_1955, I saw you in the other place in the iCare thread.
    Thanks for the reviews and comments and alll!
    I will receive several iCares next week, I don't have the patience to refill Juul pods anymore. :)

    My salt Crème Brûlée recipe will be in my next post.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
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  28. FrostyMtl

    FrostyMtl Member For 3 Years

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    Salt Crème Brûlée.
    After steeping I found the the INW custard too strong, will settle it at 3.5%.

    I wonder if the Vaporus "Salt Nix" guy will come here and use this recipe. LOL.
    His alias is "Song" if I am not mistaken.

    FEJ Caramel Candy = TPA Caramel Candy
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
  29. FrostyMtl

    FrostyMtl Member For 3 Years

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    IMG_1216.PNG
     
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  30. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    you say 25% benzoic acid......does this mean 10% of the 10ml bottle you were making was of the the solution 10 grams of bezonic acid 45 grams of PG 45 grams of VG... and do you feel this was a good percentage for the juice. or to much of the benzoic acid solution.
     
  31. FrostyMtl

    FrostyMtl Member For 3 Years

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    Yes, 25% of the 10% benzoic acid solution is used in the recipe.
    I still think that with that concentration in the recipe, the final ejuice is still really smooth. Mind you that both my Nic bases are almost tasteless.
    And I do not yet know how well the ejuice ages.
    Will need your input ragarding that. :)
     
  32. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

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    Yep, I also appear a few times in their "Nicotine Comparisons" thread, working out with others the percentages of acids to use to convert nicotine to salts. It's important to understand that the ratio of nicotine to acid remains the same (I use weight), no matter what the mg/ml nicotine strength you are aiming for to obtain a set pH value.

    I stay out of inter-forum rivalries etc and tend to appear wherever the most relevant information is ... I'm not fussy, just thirsty for good information :D Wherever I am/post, I understand it's another person's forum and therefore rules, and respect their choice to apply them (just sometimes, I shake my head at some decisions made).
     
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  33. Thedesbois

    Thedesbois Member For 3 Years

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    Hey FrostyMtl!

    Interesting read to say the least. :)

    Since Salt Nix got on the market I've been reading anything I can find on the subject (Juul patent, some good Reddit posts etc.) I've tried one 20mg/ml nic salt juice using acetic acid with no clue as to how much I should use. Worked out... ok. :D

    Just did another one using ascorbic acid with a 2:1 acid to base ratio. Not sure about that ratio as I know little of the chemistry details. Used the ratio of citric acide mentioned in the attached document. You might find it is an interesting read.

    Waiting on some benzoic acid for my next attempt. Will use the recommended 1:1 ratio based on molar mass.

    Must buy some of the "real" thing to compare too. :D

    Thanks for this thread!
     

    Attached Files:

  34. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    is there any reason that the benzoic solution has to be made out of a PG/VG mix, or could you make the solution out of 100% VG, also once you make a bottle of juice how long does it steep in order for the chemical reaction with the nicotine to occur that makes it a nic salt.
     
  35. NicoZone

    NicoZone New Member

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    Diverting thread...
    For starters it may be better to choose Nature (instead of home/kitchen chemistry) and use these tinctures for VG/PG/NIC BASE dilution/addition/flavouring/nicsalting:
    (for "EASTERN" base) Cinnamon : Plum Brandy (1:5), 40 days steep
    (for "WESTERN" base) Cranberries : Apple Brandy (1:2), 40 days steep
    Aerate, strain and mix 3-15%, depending on base density. (Opt) steep 20 days.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2017
  36. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

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    No reason other than to achieve the required PG/VG ratio. The acid reacts with the nicotine, not with the carrier, and should start immediately (although to be fully homogenised, I stir mine @ about 60C for a half hour).
     
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  37. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    what are most people here trying to achieve by this.....smoother vape? being able to use higher % of nic in their juice...slow down oxidation.
     
  38. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

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    1. Smoother vape
    2. Being able to use a higher % of nic in the juice
    3. Slow down oxidation (not an aim, but a useful side effect)
    4. And this goes hand in hand with (2) above; lower the daily volume of PG/VG inhaled
    5. Again with (2) above, use smaller and less battery hungry devices
     
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  39. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    have you any knowledge on using either Malic or citric acid to make the nic salts, or why is benzoic acid the prefered acid used...the reason I ask is Malic acid is used to enhance flavors, but perhaps is not really that good for make salts.is benzoic used because it doesn't give off the sour taste that say citric acid does.
     
  40. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    I was wondering what kind of wattage are most nic salt users vaping at. do certin levels of heat negate their effect.
     
  41. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

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    I use citric acid at the moment but I have benzoic acid on order (although the first package ordered has mysteriously disappeared ... perhaps customs have declined the importation of white powder :eek: ) and haven't noticed any sour taste with it. You do need to use more CA than you would benzoic acid though, and the JUUL patent does indicate that benzoic acid salt conversion "hits" more rapidly than either citric or malic acids.

    The patent does list around 10 different organic acids that could be used, and discussions elsewhere have occurred with Kurt the chemist where he indicated that he would be more comfortable with citric acid conversion than most others.
     
  42. dansus

    dansus New Member

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    I normally add the amount of benzoic i need per batch. Would be nice to pre dilute in a base carrier, but cant work out how much i need to add to use with 7.2% nic and have a 2% benzoic final mix?
     
  43. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

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    Are you still at 36mg/ml (3.6%) nic strength at that 2% benzoic acid mix? If so, you need to pre dilute the 7.2% nic with 4% of benzoic acid ;)
     
  44. dansus

    dansus New Member

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    Ha, yes that would be easy. Im generally using around 20mg these days, with an occasional dip into 35mg.
     
  45. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

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    Okay, but the benzoic acid % should vary as your nicotine % varies, so if your baseline is 36mg/ml and 2% benzoic acid, then dilute your 72mg/ml with 4% benzoic acid and you're sweet no matter what you finally mix to ;)
     
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  46. pulsevape

    pulsevape Diamond Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    If I could beg some help ...1) where can I buy a small amount of benzoic acid and 2) could you give me an idiot's tutorial from start to finish on how to mix a juice of 75% VG 25 PG with a finished nic level of 36 mg of nic
     
  47. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

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    I live in regional South Australia, so I can't walk into any shop and buy it so had to resort to ebay where I purchased 250g of it for about $22 USD ... which still hasn't arrived BTW :eek:
    I'll come back in a 1/2 hour or so for the mixing bit as I have to take the dog for a walk ;)
     
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  48. dansus

    dansus New Member

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    Its a good idea, but i dont want to heat the nic to dissolve the crystals. For longer term storage, think its best to dilute it into VG and let it cool before mixing. Bit like how was recommend with citric acid in the other place.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  49. GT_1955

    GT_1955 Member For 2 Years

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    That's okay, I understand.

    According to the JUUL patent, 0.3g of benzoic acid should be mixed with 0.4g of nicotine, or 300mg BA mixed with 400mg nicotine, units we as DIY'ers understand very well . That's the baseline.

    The OP mixed up a 10% solution of BA in a 50PG/50VG base, which doesn't suit a higher VG mix so use plain VG to mix at 10%, and this is done to increase the accuracy of measurement and ease the use. So let me use that as the base BA solution, mixing 10g of BA into 90g of VG which you can heat to 55C, stir and store at will, noting 90g of VG is approximately 72ml (assuming the specific gravity of your VG is 1.25). Each ml of this mix contains 138mg of BA, so 138mg/ml.

    With me so far?
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  50. dansus

    dansus New Member

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    Been a while since i used diy salts, all this talk got me motivated to make up a batch.

    I mixed up favourite NET juice as normal at 25mg, added some benzoic crystals, 2% of total volume in this case and heated it in a pan of water at 60c until dissolved. Shake or stir regularly to fully mix then stuck it in the fridge for a bit.

    Hits hard, bit mongy though. Need to tweak.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
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