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Douggro

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I'm just saying that I see no reason to believe in a thinking/feeling/acting deity.
I'm an Atheist, and while you may claim this is an anecdotal ad populum, every Atheist I personally know and have spoken to defines Atheism as a LACK of belief, NOT a belief of lacking.
In other words, we do NOT believe there is a god, NOR do we believe there IS NO god.
There is nothing to "prove" on our side. We simply lack belief due to lack of evidence.
And while I may not share your view, I totally get it and respect it. Especially for being stated so eloquently. ;)
 

Douggro

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You're going to need to expand on this before I can address it because I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say.
Okay, you said:
Again, when facts are known no faith can enter the picture. On the other hand, in the absence of facts faith can run rampant.
The presence of "facts" is somewhat irrelevant. You can present "facts" to hard-core Legalist Christians about the age of the Earth and dinosaurs and host of other topics and they will flat-out deny and refute your "facts" and interject their own "facts". Faith can enter the picture anywhere, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that would seem to refute the position of a person's beliefs.

And I think I see what you're leading with on the "..in the absence of facts, faith can run rampant" - that the lack of factual support one way or another lends itself to the insertion of faith. Which it can and has done, something that I will not argue. But a vacuum of facts is just that - a lack of something. People can - and will - insert whatever they "bring to the table" when confronted with that. For some it's faith, for others it's logical inquiry. Presumption of which it might be is the insertion of our personal bias on the matter.
 

Surf Monkey

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Okay, you said:

The presence of "facts" is somewhat irrelevant. You can present "facts" to hard-core Legalist Christians about the age of the Earth and dinosaurs and host of other topics and they will flat-out deny and refute your "facts" and interject their own "facts". Faith can enter the picture anywhere, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that would seem to refute the position of a person's beliefs.

And I think I see what you're leading with on the "..in the absence of facts, faith can run rampant" - that the lack of factual support one way or another lends itself to the insertion of faith. Which it can and has done, something that I will not argue. But a vacuum of facts is just that - a lack of something. People can - and will - insert whatever they "bring to the table" when confronted with that. For some it's faith, for others it's logical inquiry. Presumption of which it might be is the insertion of our personal bias on the matter.

So your objection is the word "facts?" Seems to me that we're saying basically the same thing. Am I wrong?
 

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Douggro

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So your objection is the word "facts?" Seems to me that we're saying basically the same thing. Am I wrong?
Perhaps you are, or I'm not being clear - something that happens with me from time to time.

Your bias is one of a proclaimed atheist. Your view is shaped around that. You're gonna see it a certain way because that's what you know. "Facts" can be irrelevant in the face of certain views. And there are about seven billion points of view on this planet, each one unique. I can't presume to understand yours anymore than you can understand mine. Screaming at someone that theirs is "wrong" is absurd.
 

pulsevape

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There's a scene in CONTACT where Ellie Arroway is debating with Palmer Joss about the existence of God. Ellie refutes the existence of God with the argument of lack of evidence for there being one. Palmer asks Ellie "Did you love your father?" "Of course." is her response. "Prove it." retorts Palmer.

Faith or belief in the existence of a God or Supreme Being is like that as far as I'm concerned. It's personal. Intangible. Unable to be proven from an empirical standpoint. Debating it is useless. I prefer to let people believe or not believe as they see fit. It's all good as long as they provide me the same respect.
well put...let those who have eyes see and ears hear.
 

justincase

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Reading some of the posts in this thread?
Man, I just don't get how/why this is so confusing.

How many people here have ever said 'I don't believe __________'
Now ask yourself how different that statement is when you flip it around to 'I believe __________ doesn't'


Who even talks like that.

I don't believe you.
I believe you not.

Seriously?

But let's just say maybe, just maybe there IS a god(s) out there.
Ok, fine..
Which one?
There is more than 5000.

Seems kinda silly doesn't it?
All those flavors to choose from.
Better hope you picked the right one.

And given the choice, who would want to worship a hateful, genocidal, misogynistic, pedophiliac, racist slaver?

Where is the god of tits and wine?
 

pcrdude

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Of course, this debate has been going on, and will continue for a long, long, time. As usual, SM appears to present a logical argument, but on closer inspection, it doesn't hold up. And here is why:

An existential claim (that of something existing) is a binary proposal. It either does, or it doesn't. Like being alive or dead, pregnant or not pregnant. A theist claims that a deity exists. They make no scientific claim about this (if they are smart), but rely on faith in the unprovable. A skeptic may say "I don't believe you unless you have proof". That's actually a good position (scientifically), and is consistent with the agnostic position. In this case, the theist makes what is known in philosophy as a "truth claim". The agnostic denies the truth claim is supported, and therefore withholds assent.

The atheist position, on the other hand is not the same as the agnostic's in this example. In this case, the atheist makes the truth claim that a deity does not exist (even if they don't admit it). Otherwise, they would be an agnostic. Remember that an existential claim is a binary proposal.

But it is illogical to reject a deity, then hedge that it might exist.
 

pcrdude

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Just curious as to who/what this was in response to?
Tweak a condition or two in the first seconds after the Big Bang and we end up with.. not this universe.
This one:
I don't believe in a Cosmic "Sky Daddy" I think that is a concept invented by man to make himself feel better.

IF there is anything close to "godlike" it would be the laws of the universe. Not an anthropomorphic entity that thinks and acts, but something that just "is". Something that doesn't change.

We may not understand the full equation yet, but that doesn't mean we won't someday. The study of physics is, in my opinion, the closest thing to the study of "god(s)".

I think that when we finally DO solve the equation, it will make the concept of god obsolete.
 

pulsevape

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Of course, this debate has been going on, and will continue for a long, long, time. As usual, SM appears to present a logical argument, but on closer inspection, it doesn't hold up. And here is why:

An existential claim (that of something existing) is a binary proposal. It either does, or it doesn't. Like being alive or dead, pregnant or not pregnant. A theist claims that a deity exists. They make no scientific claim about this (if they are smart), but rely on faith in the unprovable. A skeptic may say "I don't believe you unless you have proof". That's actually a good position (scientifically), and is consistent with the agnostic position. In this case, the theist makes what is known in philosophy as a "truth claim". The agnostic denies the truth claim is supported, and therefore withholds assent.

The atheist position, on the other hand is not the same as the agnostic's in this example. In this case, the atheist makes the truth claim that a deity does not exist (even if they don't admit it). Otherwise, they would be an agnostic. Remember that an existential claim is a binary proposal.

But it is illogical to reject a deity, then hedge that it might exist.
in the end who cares? I am more than happy to let aethist believe whatever they want..hell I encourage them to stand by their beliefs even considering what we know about the nature of the Universe is just a hair's breadth above what a chimp knows,and the vast majority of aethists on this thread have the scientific training of your averge high school drop out.... to discuss the nature of man's soul with aethists is pointless...like casting pearls before swine. watching paint dry is more interesting.
 

justincase

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There's no such thing as a soul.
All you got is an ego, which man calls a soul.
Unless......you got proof?
 

pcrdude

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in the end who cares? I am more than happy to let aethist believe whatever they want..hell I encourage them to stand by their beliefs even considering what we know about the nature of the Universe is just a hair's breadth above what a chimp knows,and the vast majority of aethists on this thread have the scientific training of your averge high school drop out.... to discuss the nature of man's soul with aethists is pointless...like casting pearls before swine. watching paint dry is more interesting.

I don't label myself as an a-flying spaghetti monster (aFSM). A denier of the FSM. It is a non-issue to me. The truth claim lacks support. I don't deny that FSM exists. I am agnostic about the existence of FSM, but not "aFSM".

;)
 

pulsevape

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I don't label myself as an a-flying spaghetti monster (aFSM). A denier of the FSM. It is a non-issue to me. The truth claim lacks support. I don't deny that FSM exists. I am agnostic about the existence of FSM, but not "aFSM".

;)
let those who have eyes see and ears hear......why waste time discussing the color of the flower with the color blind. better to share the experince with those who can see it...unlike the bohdisattva I say "fuck them" they're on their own. or as Jesus said.
"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet."

as for debating the possiblity of the existence of God...the aethist here don't have enough scientific training to teach a junior high school science class...the basis for their hostility toward God is derived from their crazy grammies locking them in the closet overnight for not learning their bible verses or having their ass switched when young for being caught in inappropraite sexual expermintation and their grammy trying to beat Satan out of them...it is not derived from a sincere study of either science or spirituality.
 
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Douggro

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But let's just say maybe, just maybe there IS a god(s) out there.
Ok, fine..
Which one?
There is more than 5000.
Seems kinda silly doesn't it?
All those flavors to choose from.
Better hope you picked the right one.
And given the choice, who would want to worship a hateful, genocidal, misogynistic, pedophiliac, racist slaver?
Where is the god of tits and wine?
Don't confuse the acts of man for the acts of (a) God.
 

Douggro

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let those who have eyes see and ears hear......why waste time discussing the color of the flower with the color blind. better to share the experince with those who can see it...unlike the bohdisattva I say "fuck them" they're on their own. or as Jesus said.
"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet."
There's something in there though about having compassion, even for those that would turn you away.
 

pulsevape

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There's something in there though about having compassion, even for those that would turn you away.
compassion is not sympathy....extending compassion includes the realization that this being is where it is at and that sometimes there is nothing you can do about that, it is not in your hands. we all get there in our own time and in our own way, and if they need to bang their head against the wall for a while so be it and that's OK
 
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Douggro

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I am more than happy to let aethist believe whatever they want..hell I encourage them to stand by their beliefs even considering what we know about the nature of the Universe is just a hair's breadth above what a chimp knows
Yes, I like this. In the face of the magnificence of the Universe, it is wholly arrogant to claim that I possibly could understand it all.
 

Douggro

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compassion is not sympathy....extending compassion includes the realization that this being is where it is at and that sometimes there is nothing you can do about that, it is not in your hands.
Compassion is seeing someone in struggle and asking "What can I do to help you?"
Sympathy is seeing someone struggle and saying "Oh, that's too bad."
 

Douggro

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This one:
Azriel Mysterious said: ↑
I don't believe in a Cosmic "Sky Daddy" I think that is a concept invented by man to make himself feel better.
IF there is anything close to "godlike" it would be the laws of the universe. Not an anthropomorphic entity that thinks and acts, but something that just "is". Something that doesn't change.
We may not understand the full equation yet, but that doesn't mean we won't someday. The study of physics is, in my opinion, the closest thing to the study of "god(s)".
I think that when we finally DO solve the equation, it will make the concept of god obsolete.
Ahh, that context helps. ;)
 

pulsevape

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Compassion is seeing someone in struggle and asking "What can I do to help you?"
Sympathy is seeing someone struggle and saying "Oh, that's too bad."
sometimes the only help they want is for you to let them do it themselves.sometimes the best help you can give is to tell them do it yourself.
There's something in there though about having compassion, even for those that would turn you away.
What I see Jesus was saying is that...look at this being's level of awarness what you are trying to share with them..they can't grasp...it is as pointless to share what you see with them as it would be to share geometry with a kindergaten student. you might plant a seed,but it may be liftimes before it sprouts. and they may very well curcify you for your troubles...there are people who can see what you are saying and can profit from your communication so go talk to them....because they want to communicate with you.
 
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Pipug

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let those who have eyes see and ears hear......why waste time discussing the color of the flower with the color blind. better to share the experince with those who can see it...unlike the bohdisattva I say "fuck them" they're on their own. or as Jesus said.
"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet."

as for debating the possiblity of the existence of God...the aethist here don't have enough scientific training to teach a junior high school science class...the basis for their hostility toward God is derived from their crazy grammies locking them in the closet overnight for not learning their bible verses or having their ass switched when young for being caught in inappropraite sexual expermintation and their grammy trying to beat Satan out of them...it is not derived from a sincere study of either science or spirituality.

I feel no hostility whatsoever, pulsevape. I simply do not believe. I don't need a science degree for that. :)
 

Surf Monkey

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Perhaps you are, or I'm not being clear - something that happens with me from time to time.

Your bias is one of a proclaimed atheist. Your view is shaped around that. You're gonna see it a certain way because that's what you know. "Facts" can be irrelevant in the face of certain views. And there are about seven billion points of view on this planet, each one unique. I can't presume to understand yours anymore than you can understand mine. Screaming at someone that theirs is "wrong" is absurd.

When did I "scream at" someone that their beliefs are wrong?

Edit: scroll back in the thread, because the screaming has been AT me and the content of that screaming is that MY viewpoint is wrong, so ...
 
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Surf Monkey

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I don't label myself as an a-flying spaghetti monster (aFSM). A denier of the FSM. It is a non-issue to me. The truth claim lacks support. I don't deny that FSM exists. I am agnostic about the existence of FSM, but not "aFSM".

;)

You're arguing with yourself again.

I don't "deny" the existence of god(s). I don't believe in gods. Because no evidence suggests they exist. I don't believe in the negative any more than I believe in the positive.

Your continuing problem here is thinking that atheism is a belief. That's incorrect.
 

Surf Monkey

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let those who have eyes see and ears hear......why waste time discussing the color of the flower with the color blind. better to share the experince with those who can see it...unlike the bohdisattva I say "fuck them" they're on their own. or as Jesus said.
"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet."

as for debating the possiblity of the existence of God...the aethist here don't have enough scientific training to teach a junior high school science class...the basis for their hostility toward God is derived from their crazy grammies locking them in the closet overnight for not learning their bible verses or having their ass switched when young for being caught in inappropraite sexual expermintation and their grammy trying to beat Satan out of them...it is not derived from a sincere study of either science or spirituality.

How Christian of you.

I haven't expressed any hostility towards either God or believers in God. Meanwhile, the stream of ad hom attacks from you and PCR haven't stopped.

Self awareness. Consider it.
 

USMCotaku

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So your objection is the word "facts?" Seems to me that we're saying basically the same thing. Am I wrong?
NO, you really are saying the same basic thing. His objection was to faith only running rampant in the ABSENCE of fatcts...when it is demonstrable that faith will run rough shod OVER facts in many cases.
 

Surf Monkey

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NO, you really are saying the same basic thing. His objection was to faith only running rampant in the ABSENCE of fatcts...when it is demonstrable that faith will run rough shod OVER facts in many cases.

That's what I thought.

The hinge is the word "facts." Probably clearer to have said "data."

As per my example earlier:

Cup behind a curtain. No data showing its capacity. Faith can enter the picture here.

Cup exposed. Data available showing its capacity. Faith can not enter the picture.
 

Surf Monkey

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Of course, this debate has been going on, and will continue for a long, long, time. As usual, SM appears to present a logical argument, but on closer inspection, it doesn't hold up. And here is why:

An existential claim (that of something existing) is a binary proposal. It either does, or it doesn't. Like being alive or dead, pregnant or not pregnant. A theist claims that a deity exists. They make no scientific claim about this (if they are smart), but rely on faith in the unprovable. A skeptic may say "I don't believe you unless you have proof". That's actually a good position (scientifically), and is consistent with the agnostic position. In this case, the theist makes what is known in philosophy as a "truth claim". The agnostic denies the truth claim is supported, and therefore withholds assent.

The atheist position, on the other hand is not the same as the agnostic's in this example. In this case, the atheist makes the truth claim that a deity does not exist (even if they don't admit it). Otherwise, they would be an agnostic. Remember that an existential claim is a binary proposal.

But it is illogical to reject a deity, then hedge that it might exist.

A theist claims a deity or deities exist. An atheist makes no such claim. A theist bases his/her conclusion on faith. An atheist bases his/her conclusion on data (or the complete lack of data in this case.) A theist believe that there is a god(s). An atheist does not believe there is a god.

So you're STILL stuck in a semantic loop because you fail to make the CRITICAL distinction between "I do not believe in" and "I believe there isn't."
 

f1r3b1rd

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let those who have eyes see and ears hear......why waste time discussing the color of the flower with the color blind. better to share the experince with those who can see it...unlike the bohdisattva I say "fuck them" they're on their own. or as Jesus said.
"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet."

as for debating the possiblity of the existence of God...the aethist here don't have enough scientific training to teach a junior high school science class...the basis for their hostility toward God is derived from their crazy grammies locking them in the closet overnight for not learning their bible verses or having their ass switched when young for being caught in inappropraite sexual expermintation and their grammy trying to beat Satan out of them...it is not derived from a sincere study of either science or spirituality.

I feel sorry for those who are so outspoken on needing proof. It's not only sad that they are so close minded; but, even more so to make such an effort to take away others beliefs.



But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. ... Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error.


-Jefferson had the right idea-and it cuts both ways
 

Surf Monkey

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I feel sorry for those who are so outspoken on needing proof. It's not only sad that they are so close minded; but, even more so to make such an effort to take away others beliefs.

Close minded is the exact opposite of what a skeptic is. Additionally, I'd like to point out that I have NOT made ANY effort to "take away others' beliefs." The opposite is true in this case as well. I've been very respectful of the beliefs of others, but my atheism has been under direct attack since page one.

But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. ... Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error.

No argument there.

-Jefferson had the right idea-and it cuts both ways

Not sure what you're referencing here.
 

pulsevape

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How Christian of you.

I haven't expressed any hostility towards either God or believers in God. Meanwhile, the stream of ad hom attacks from you and PCR haven't stopped.

Self awareness. Consider it.
How Christian of you.

I haven't expressed any hostility towards either God or believers in God. Meanwhile, the stream of ad hom attacks from you and PCR haven't stopped.

Self awareness. Consider it.
The spirit is willing ,but the flesh is weak...that is why a meditation on enlightened teachings are neccessary...least we be drawn into the tempataion of breaking ones foot off in the ass of sniveling craven liitle pieces of shit like you.
 

justincase

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I feel sorry for those who are so outspoken on needing proof. It's not only sad that they are so close minded; but, even more so to make such an effort to take away others beliefs.



But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. ... Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error.


-Jefferson had the right idea-and it cuts both ways
It may not do any injury for your neighbor to say they believe in god(s),
but when folks are pushing for others to be legislated based on their beliefs we have a problem.
Christians FREAK OUT when discussing Muslims/Sharia Law, but they will turn right around and want to do the same thing.

You know how most atheists become atheist?
They start by reading the bible without their rose colored glasses..
Not long after that is when they start asking questions, and researching for themselves.

Hell, most christians think the gospels were actually written by men named Mark, Matthew, John and Luke.
.....they're not, btw. Most biblical scholars agree they are anonymous.
Same as the first 5 books of the old testament.
No one named Moses wrote that shit.

Skeptics do not have a closed mind.
That would be the religious.
They will completely shut down if you introduce anything to them that runs counter to what they believe.
It's called cognitive dissonance.

In psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time, performs an action that is contradictory to one or more beliefs, ideas, or values, or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values.
An individual who experiences inconsistency (dissonance) tends to become psychologically uncomfortable, and is motivated to try to reduce this dissonance—as well as actively avoid situations and information likely to increase it.
 

Surf Monkey

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The spirit is willing ,but the flesh is weak...that is why a meditation on enlightened teachings are neccessary...least we be drawn into the tempataion of breaking ones foot off in the ass of sniveling craven liitle pieces of shit like you.

Which one of your enlightened and meditative leaders told you it was a good idea to attack people with ad homs and nasty smears? Jesus? Was it Jesus? Kinda doubt it...
 

f1r3b1rd

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Not sure what you're referencing here.


if it is not supposed to bother anyone that someone does not believe than it cant bother someone that another does.
furthermore, this country was founded based on the tenants of judeo chritian doctrine. Historically speaking that is an inarguable fact. not the belief in god but rather the management and societal behavior.
 

pulsevape

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Which one of your enlightened and meditative leaders told you it was a good idea to attack people with ad homs and nasty smears? Jesus? Was it Jesus? Kinda doubt it...
I wasn't aware you were familar with any of the teachings of Jesus...I thought your filed of expertise was confined to ball gags and and butt plugs, as I said the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

Centre_of_wheel_of_life.jpg
 

Surf Monkey

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if it is not supposed to bother anyone that someone does not believe than it cant bother someone that another does.

Are you reading the thread? I've never expressed any bother at the beliefs of others. People are entitled to believe whatever they want to. But it appears that a whole bunch of people are in fact bothered by my atheism. To the point of calling me the most nasty and vicious names they can come up with.

furthermore, this country was founded based on the tenants of judeo chritian doctrine. Historically speaking that is an inarguable fact.

Not really. The Founders were enlightenment philosophers. They were mostly Christians, but they very intentionally wrote a secular government into existence so that no religion would have primacy above any other.
 

Surf Monkey

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I wasn't aware you were familar with any of the teachings of Jesus...I thought your filed of expertise was confined to ball gags and and butt plugs, as I said the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

Centre_of_wheel_of_life.jpg

THERE'S your childish homophobia! I was wondering where it went.

Yeah, shouting that I'm a sexual deviant doesn't actually have any impact on me since it's just an impotent lie you're throwing at me out of some kind of misguided frustration and anger. Makes you look like a genuine prick. Happy about that?
 

pulsevape

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THERE'S your childish homophobia! I was wondering where it went.

Yeah, shouting that I'm a sexual deviant doesn't actually have any impact on me since it's just an impotent lie you're throwing at me out of some kind of misguided frustration and anger. Makes you look like a genuine prick. Happy about that?
dude you assume much...I in no way allude to homosexuality that is your assumption why your mind should go there is anyones guess. seeing as how a fetish for ball gags and butt plugs is not confined to homosexuals....as for deviant.....that is a social construct....whatever blows your skirt up is my motto.
 

pulsevape

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Are you reading the thread? I've never expressed any bother at the beliefs of others. People are entitled to believe whatever they want to. But it appears that a whole bunch of people are in fact bothered by my atheism. To the point of calling me the most nasty and vicious names they can come up with.



Not really. The Founders were enlightenment philosophers. They were mostly Christians, but they very intentionally wrote a secular government into existence so that no religion would have primacy above any other.
hqdefault.jpg
 

justincase

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if it is not supposed to bother anyone that someone does not believe than it cant bother someone that another does.
furthermore, this country was founded based on the tenants of judeo chritian doctrine. Historically speaking that is an inarguable fact. not the belief in god but rather the management and societal behavior.
If that were the case, you would think they would have put god somewhere in the founding documents.
They are, after all, the FOUNDING documents. But if that's not enough;
It is stated in no uncertain terms that this nation was, in fact, NOT founded on the christian religion.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Article 11

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.asp
 

f1r3b1rd

https://cookingwithlegs.com/
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obviously it was a dumb idea to even attempt a two way discussion.......

enjoy ya'lls total stalemate
 

Surf Monkey

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dude you assume much...I in no way allude to homosexuality that is your assumption why your mind should go there is anyones guess. seeing as how a fetish for ball gags and butt plugs is not confined to homosexuals....as for deviant.....that is a social construct....whatever blows your skirt up is my motto.

Says the guy who keeps referencing the rape scene in Deliverance.

Good thing you have a mature, compelling argument :rolleyes:
 

Surf Monkey

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Member For 4 Years
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obviously it was a dumb idea to even attempt a two way discussion.......

enjoy ya'lls total stalemate

What stalemate? Looks to me like a bunch of even tempered atheists trying to defend against a bunch of rabid grudge holders who don't really want to debate so much as they want to vent their bladders at the big bad Surf Monkey.
 
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