Wow you actually TRIED to argue. Maybe there is hope for you yet.
Uh, no....
You're arguing semantics (again).
DO YOU BELIEVE THERE IS NO DEITY?
No Pascal's wager hedging this time.
Tell us without obfuscation!
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Wow you actually TRIED to argue. Maybe there is hope for you yet.
Uh, no....
You're arguing semantics (again).
DO YOU BELIEVE THERE IS NO DEITY?
No Pascal's wager hedging this time.
Tell us without obfuscation!
What's up with the "sit down"? Are you standing when you type? Oh, the lame condescension is noted. And pathetic.....
Actually, you're still in ECF mode. Taunt until the mods step in and then run and hide like a little child.
Pathetic.
Maybe try a different debate topic...cause the whole Ha you arnt actually real atheist! thing isnt working at all.
It's like me telling Christians Oh if you will admit a 0.01% chance your wrong...your not whatever 150 branch of Christianity there is.
Kinda flop...
How about masturbation is a direct path to satan?
It's like me telling Christians Oh if you will admit a 0.01% chance your wrong...your not whatever 150 branch of Christianity there is.
Kinda flop...
How about masturbation is a direct path to satan?
Here is a Q.....IF theist were not such a thing....would atheist even exist? Up there with Not bowlers no?
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Where you keep flailing is by asking an atheist if they believe
The answer is no.
Atheist do not believe.
I'm not trying to argue or disagree with you.
My point was rather simple really.
English is not an original language.
Had it not been for other languages, we wouldn't have English.
That was the only point I was trying to make.
You are probably correct on all fronts.
I am not a language scholar.
I wonder what English will sound like in another 1000 years?
If you think about it, our English today is already different from just a couple hundred years ago.
If we had a time machine and went to the United States in the year 2172 would we recognize it? Would we understand them?
.....weird thoughts.
By the way, nice to meet you!
You seem very nice and honest.
You demonstrated how I was wrong, and didn't result to calling me a fuck face or some other similar childish smear.
.....in other words, an adult.
:toast:
I live in a coastal tourist trap.
We have all flavors here.
Damn. I've been waiting for my MIL to move on, now I'll be seeing her for eternity. Damn.
Um, yep they do. They believe there is no deity, since they have no way to KNOW their isn't. That's why it isn't scientific, nor is it logical.
That's great!
You think you can speak for me.
You don't even know me, yet you can speak for me.
No.
I do not believe.
I don't believe in god(s)
I don't believe in fairies.
I do not believe in Santa
I do not believe in leprechauns
I do not believe in dragons
I do not believe in magic.
.......I do not believe.
Probably a bunch if other stuff I don't believe either, but suffice it to say, I DO BELIEVE that is sufficient.
But unicorns are not on your list.....
Seriously Justin, do you understand the point?
Imagine a child who grows up in the tropics. Away from all forms of outside communication. Someone tells him that sometimes, water can fall from the sky slowly, and it's all white and fluffy. He hasn't seen it with his own eyes, nor has anyone else in his tribe. An agnostic doesn't believe it, and an atheist says it doesn't happen.
Neither one ever sees snow.
Is there snow, even though they have never, and will never see it?
Well, an atheist may say,
'Well, mister. You may be right. But until you can provide some evidence, I don't believe you.'
Also, I won't say I don't believe in some freakish rhinoceros with one horn, but I don't believe in these unicorns.
'Well, mister. You may be right. But until you can provide some evidence, I don't believe you.'
Also, I won't say I don't believe in some freakish rhinoceros with one horn, but I don't believe in these unicorns.
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Worst analogy ever. The person telling those tropical people of snow for the first time, would be able to produce evidence of its existence. See, in general, while it is impossible to prove a negative, it is usually not that difficult to prove a positive. Therefore, it isn't on the atheists to disprove god, but the theists to prove it....in thousands of years, not one scrap of evidence, so which is the logical position now?
And just how would said person prove that snow exists? And would they even have to?
No, they would not, and snow would still exist. The agnostic position is the correct one, since it is impossible to prove the existence of snow to the tropical tribesmen.
that is where your analogy fails...it is NOT impossible to prove snows existence to them. He could bring them to snow. He could show them ice, and explain the process of how snow is formed. He could show them video and photographs of snow, etc etc etc.....NONE of that exists for any deity.
The only reason he would HAVE to, is if they expected those tropical people to worship snow, and live life based on snow related rules. The religious want to "convert" everybody, and force their religious beliefs and "guide lines" on the whole of the population....so the onus is on them to prove their god.
I am not atheist btw...but your argument about them has been a flop from the get go.
The only reason he would HAVE to, is if they expected those tropical people to worship snow, and live life based on snow related rules. The religious want to "convert" everybody, and force their religious beliefs and "guide lines" on the whole of the population....so the onus is on them to prove their god.
I am not atheist btw...but your argument about them has been a flop from the get go.
The person in this example traveled there by boat in the 1500s, before photography, and was left stranded with no way to return. No way to prove snow.
Seriously USM, I think you're missing the point. In addition, to debate the illogical nature of atheism (strong), in no way supports theism. That is the logical fallacy of false dichotomy.
When losing, keep adding more to the story....yeah, that'll work....
You don't have to believe anything you don't want to Pi. And you can believe anything you want to as well.
But the truth is pretty evident.
Did you ever study philosophy or debate?
I have studied philosophy, but never debating. I just enjoy discussing various topics and enjoy seeing various angles. Some make sense, others do not.
I enjoy debating as well. I apologize to all (but him) for the name-calling and condescension with which I treat simian-baby. He asked for it on ECF, and he's getting it now.
I couldn't care less if anyone believes in any deity, the flying spaghetti monster, or alien life. And if theists want to believe what they want, then fine with me. If they want to proselytize, I may or may not listen, but they better shut the fuck up if I tell them to. I hold atheists to the same standard. I get tired of reading rants from atheists who claim intellectual superiority, and "science" or "logic" backed claims when they have neither.
Now, would you care to discuss atheism?
First, I don't enjoy debating. I enjoy discussing. Debating has too many rules for my taste...
And, as far as discussing atheism, there really is not much to discuss, imo. I don't believe in a deity. If evidence should ever be presented, I would certainly change my stance. As things stand today, there has been NO evidence to prove a deity, so, to me, logic dictates there is none. But, that's just me. I respect true people of faith, and would not care to bash them for their faith. I just don't have such faith. Now, if they start proselytizing, I may ask them to back up their statements with evidence and that usually shuts down the conversation.
That's really all I have to say on the matter.
But, you might find a good opponent in Surf Monkey if you just stuck to the subject, no?
And, as far as discussing atheism, there really is not much to discuss, imo. I don't believe in a deity. If evidence should ever be presented, I would certainly change my stance. As things stand today, there has been NO evidence to prove a deity, so, to me, logic dictates there is none. But, that's just me. I respect true people of faith, and would not care to bash them for their faith. I just don't have such faith. Now, if they start proselytizing, I may ask them to back up their statements with evidence and that usually shuts down the conversation.
That's really all I have to say on the matter.
But, you might find a good opponent in Surf Monkey if you just stuck to the subject, no?
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I'm not trying to argue or disagree with you.
My point was rather simple really.
English is not an original language.
Had it not been for other languages, we wouldn't have English.
That was the only point I was trying to make.
You are probably correct on all fronts.
I am not a language scholar.
I wonder what English will sound like in another 1000 years?
If you think about it, our English today is already different from just a couple hundred years ago.
If we had a time machine and went to the United States in the year 2172 would we recognize it? Would we understand them?
.....weird thoughts.
By the way, nice to meet you!
You seem very nice and honest.
You demonstrated how I was wrong, and didn't result to calling me a fuck face or some other similar childish smear.
.....in other words, an adult.
:toast:
I'm a little bit of an "english geek" -- history and language -- and language is one of my foremost fascinations, particularly derivation and changes over time -- so you're entirely correct, English is very much a *living* language, constantly changing -- I think it's the construction of the actual words, the way we add suffixes and prefixes, that makes it so adaptable and flexible and yeah, probably good for another 1000 years -- and in just 100-200, none of us would probably recognize it!
As for not insulting... that's no way to debate! I had actually intended not to return to this thread, it had become so childish, but anytime I see something about one of my pet interests, I can't seem to help myself. I would much rather discuss than debate, and would FAR rather debate than indulge in a shit-flinging contest. There's something quite similar to chimpanzees in the human gene pool, but I do think the emergence of language *should* have elevated us above flinging poo at each other... but so often it seems that it really hasn't.
Nice to meet you too -- it's always wonderful to meet someone who can discuss without the written equivalent of "nuh uh!"
Andria
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believe in what you want to believe. But if you are lookin for proof of anything, you will never find it.
That's the entire point of Belief.
I was raised in a devout catholic, irish-italian home --- yeah prime real estate for party life.
like most people that grow up in that atmosphere, I walked away from my faith as a young adult.
Life has shown me the undeniable truth that there is a God. do I have proof? the fact that I am still here after 17minutes of hanging out with the pale rider is proof enough for me.
That's the entire point of Belief.
I was raised in a devout catholic, irish-italian home --- yeah prime real estate for party life.
like most people that grow up in that atmosphere, I walked away from my faith as a young adult.
Life has shown me the undeniable truth that there is a God. do I have proof? the fact that I am still here after 17minutes of hanging out with the pale rider is proof enough for me.
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Good post! I've also departed the faith of my childhood and family, but I can never quite believe that there is no God -- I just don't believe that It really cares about all the little rules and dogmas that humans seem so attached to. But proof? Nah -- the entire concept of God has nothing whatever to do with reason or logic. I can't prove that what I believe is true, but it works for me. If believing there is no God works for others, good for them; I just couldn't live that way.
Andria
Sounds more like a biological anomaly.
Something we may discover given enough time.
Or perhaps we may never know.
But anytime 'god' is given as a reason for an unknown, well, that's a classic god of the gaps argument.
Being an antitheist, I don't have anything nice to say about religion.
Any religion.
Glad its working out for you.
Hey...slow clap is better than no clap! 
I'd rather not have the clap, TYVM.Hey...slow clap is better than no clap!
First, I don't enjoy debating. I enjoy discussing. Debating has too many rules for my taste...
And, as far as discussing atheism, there really is not much to discuss, imo. I don't believe in a deity. If evidence should ever be presented, I would certainly change my stance. As things stand today, there has been NO evidence to prove a deity, so, to me, logic dictates there is none. But, that's just me. I respect true people of faith, and would not care to bash them for their faith. I just don't have such faith. Now, if they start proselytizing, I may ask them to back up their statements with evidence and that usually shuts down the conversation.
That's really all I have to say on the matter.
But, you might find a good opponent in Surf Monkey if you just stuck to the subject, no?
I never left the subject Pi, so I don't know quite where you are coming from.
The simian was a real asshole on ECF. He would get away with snide remarks, insults, and generally bait and harass anyone who disagreed with his opinion. That's why I started interacting with him in an insulting way in this thread. After a while, his old ECF self shone through, and his debate tactic was ad hominem attacks with no substantive argument. Anyone can go back and re-read what he posted.
So, no, he is not a good opponent. If you would prefer, I can post a quote from a philosophy blog that clarifies what I was talking about with regard to atheism. If not, that's ok. Simian will soon chime in, and I'll post it for him.....
As far as philosophy, did you study Kant? Maybe Popper? Maybe Kuhn?
You might want to read about the arguments against the Ontological Argument. It can be quite interesting!
I never left the subject Pi, so I don't know quite where you are coming from.
The simian was a real asshole on ECF. He would get away with snide remarks, insults, and generally bait and harass anyone who disagreed with his opinion. That's why I started interacting with him in an insulting way in this thread. After a while, his old ECF self shone through, and his debate tactic was ad hominem attacks with no substantive argument. Anyone can go back and re-read what he posted.
So, no, he is not a good opponent. If you would prefer, I can post a quote from a philosophy blog that clarifies what I was talking about with regard to atheism. If not, that's ok. Simian will soon chime in, and I'll post it for him.....
As far as philosophy, did you study Kant? Maybe Popper? Maybe Kuhn?
You might want to read about the arguments against the Ontological Argument. It can be quite interesting!
More like Aristotle, Avicenna and Plato...oh, and Sen...
I actually have read the entire thread. It seems as if you have a major grudge on this Surf Monkey fellow. He seems very intelligent to me and a much more worthy opponent than myself. Slinging poo gets us nowhere here, but, if that makes you happy, sling away, I'll duck....
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More like Aristotle, Avicenna and Plato...oh, and Sen...
I actually have read the entire thread. It seems as if you have a major grudge on this Surf Monkey fellow. He seems very intelligent to me and a much more worthy opponent than myself. Slinging poo gets us nowhere here, but, if that makes you happy, sling away, I'll duck....
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I also have nothing good to say about any religion at all -- they're all constructs of man. But that doesn't negate the existence of God... it just illustrates how little real understanding humans have of anything outside the human experience. God is constantly anthropomorphized as "He", when obviously It has no use for gender, which is strictly for the purpose of sexual procreation. So many religionists seem to believe that God can reach right into their life and effect some change -- if God can do that, then It has no use for gender! Some also discount the validity of human consciousness, in rejecting medicine and all the other valuable works of man -- if, as they believe, God "created us," why don't they see that It "created us" to be able to solve our own problems, medical and otherwise? I.e., It didn't give us heads with brains in them to do nothing more than hold up hats and praise the lord!
I'm not an atheist nor antitheist, but I understand and empathize with a great many of their complaints about religionists.
Andria
Nope. Sorry. Not what's happening.
But I see you still have no argument beyond posturing, smearing and insulting.
You lost this round, Skippy. Sit down.
I also have nothing good to say about any religion at all -- they're all constructs of man. But that doesn't negate the existence of God... it just illustrates how little real understanding humans have of anything outside the human experience. God is constantly anthropomorphized as "He", when obviously It has no use for gender, which is strictly for the purpose of sexual procreation. So many religionists seem to believe that God can reach right into their life and effect some change -- if God can do that, then It has no use for gender! Some also discount the validity of human consciousness, in rejecting medicine and all the other valuable works of man -- if, as they believe, God "created us," why don't they see that It "created us" to be able to solve our own problems, medical and otherwise? I.e., It didn't give us heads with brains in them to do nothing more than hold up hats and praise the lord!
I'm not an atheist nor antitheist, but I understand and empathize with a great many of their complaints about religionists.
Andria
Well said.
Think of it this way:
If you have a dog, does he know how your house was built? Does he know where the food you give him comes from? Does he understand concepts like money? Electricity? No. Of course he doesn't, and by the simple fact of being a dog he will NEVER be able to grasp these things.
Humans love to imagine that they are the be all and end all pinnacle of thinking creatures. But we're just like the dog. A MASSIVE amount of the reality around us is now and will forever be beyond our ability to comprehend. The highly unsatisfactory "gods" that have been invented by men to explain the unknown may be comforting to some, but I see no reason to believe they exist given the complete paucity of evidence on the table.
Edit: apt.
Oh, the irony!!!!
Here is the translation of what simian-freak is doing:
ignoratio elenchi ad nauseam
I never left the subject Pi, so I don't know quite where you are coming from.
The simian was a real asshole on ECF. He would get away with snide remarks, insults, and generally bait and harass anyone who disagreed with his opinion. That's why I started interacting with him in an insulting way in this thread. After a while, his old ECF self shone through, and his debate tactic was ad hominem attacks with no substantive argument. Anyone can go back and re-read what he posted.
So, no, he is not a good opponent. If you would prefer, I can post a quote from a philosophy blog that clarifies what I was talking about with regard to atheism. If not, that's ok. Simian will soon chime in, and I'll post it for him.....
As far as philosophy, did you study Kant? Maybe Popper? Maybe Kuhn?
You might want to read about the arguments against the Ontological Argument. It can be quite interesting!
I mean, given how completely you failed to deliver on your promise to prove to me that atheism is illogical, not to mention your (now proven empty) threats about how the whole community here would rise to your side in order to prove once and for all how bad old Surf Monkey can't survive without his pet mods?
Seems like you're all bark and no bite.
Cute, but not apt.
Maybe you should shout some more obscenities and try to think up some more names to call me? Didn't work the first couple hundred times, but maybe it will eventually?
I never claimed the whole site (or anyone for that matter) would rise to my side.
That is a blatant lie.
You've already lost this debate. You are an atheist (but too much of a pussy to admit it) who's "truth claim" of "no deity exists" is illogical. The term "atheist" does not change meaning simply because you want it to.
Furthermore, you are an anti-theist, and a proselytizing hypocrite on the subject of a term you use to describe yourself.
Sure, and most average people of faith will say much the same thing. "Faith doesn't require proof." That's literally true. In fact, evidence eliminates faith as a factor. There's no room for faith in the known. The two are antithetical.
The argument arises because certain people of faith see the atheist viewpoint as an affront. They see it as an attack on their faith. Therefore, they develop an "I know you are but what am I?" argument to "rebut" atheists' lack of faith thusly:
"Well, YOU have faith too! You believe that God doesn't exist just like I believe he does. We're both believers so we're both equal."
Problem is? It doesn't work like that. Atheists generally don't believe there is no God. They simply don't believe in the gods that have been peoposed so far given the lack of any direct or indirect evicence. The atheist viewpoint has no room for faith or belief and is therefore antithetical to the viewpoint of the beliver. But it is NOT an affront. Just a different viewpoint.
Thank you for proving my point!!!
You don't have a point so I really didn't.
But you keep pretending you're a big intellectual powerhouse.
That's agnosticism, not atheism.
ignoratio elenchi
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Yes... all Gods have been invented for comfort; Gods of fire, of thunder and lightening, of the sea and the rumbling, moving earth. My own belief is that the chief comfort Man seeks is for the great unknowable, death. My own belief is that human existence is merely a sort of playacting, "all the world's a stage," from which we will one day wake -- at death. I think it may be something like waking from a dream; sometimes regretfully, if the dream was a good one, or joyfully, if the dream was scary and awful -- but wake we will one day all have to do.
Can I prove any of that belief? Absolutely not. But it's the best my own limited consciousness can come up with, at least at this stage of my life. I remain open to the possibility of one day understanding more -- which strikes me as the only wise or "spiritual" attitude to have -- openness, acceptance of possibilities, and skepticism towards any human-touted "will of God". You're absolutely right -- we can know no more of the universe than a dog knows of human motivations or constructions. All we can really do is observe -- and understand that our powers of observation are extremely limited.
Andria
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