CEASES AND DESIST: YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT CLONES

[Zamazam]

Can't we just get on with vaping and protecting our rights? If the FDA has their way, clones and diacetyl are mute points. I'm amazed at how many people get worked up on this issue, yet when a city council holds a meeting and votes there are only a couple of vapers to give a statment. It's almost as if these clowns were set up by public health groups to cause division.

I had it out with one of these evangical authentics zealots on Reddit and there was no common ground or common sense. Clones are another route to evolutionary design development. There's tons of TED talks and information (I assumed they could read. That may have been my error). Logo's are trademarked. That's the only thing they have a claim on and going after that right now would be stupid since most people learn about the original from the clone. Authentic makers could fix that if they wanted to fairly compete.

A minimum run in China is 2,500 to 7,000 units. There is NO manufacturing facility in the USA able to do a run that large. ZERO. Most mod makers won't make the design and material compromises it requires for a large run anyway. A number of them have tried to work with foriegn manufacturing and so far it's been a failure. There are not enough mod makers turning out enough units to satisfy demand - and it's not in the best interest of the industry to stifle demand. We need all the vapers we can get right now while we still can. This is the golden age of vaping.

There are only so many ways to modify a pipe such that it's "unique" and I think most of those ways have been exhausted a long time ago. Logo's are different because the only reason to use someone else's logo involves an attempt to decieve/fraud. FT has a few mods without logos and as a result, I have no idea what or who the original is. They are foolish to not use clones as free advertising to customers that were not looking for originals but could be persuaded in that direction.

Zen took the high road - a little satire based in reality by offerring to re-tool clones so they were comparable to the original. Thus he pointed out the value added by buying the real thing. Kebo took the original SM Kayfun and buildt upon it, improving it and than branding it as his own. That's more like the way the clone market should work. Chinese factories would be wise to put their own branding on clones because, guess what? Some of them are better than the original (most aren't) but it avoids this whole legal question.

No doubt they hired some high priced corporate lawyer and this is how corporations are operating today. It is cheaper to legislate and extort buyers than to compete in the market fairly.

Lets just vape.

There is a FaceBook page and website for this group. I started taking names because I was so appauled at the stupidity, then assumed they'd figure it out and drop it. HAH. Someone is making money on them that's for sure. It's money that could better be spent fighting the misinformation machine.

If they really cared about their products.

"A minimum run in China is 2,500 to 7,000 units. There is NO manufacturing facility in the USA able to do a run that large. ZERO. Most mod makers won't make the design and material compromises it requires for a large run anyway. A number of them have tried to work with foriegn manufacturing and so far it's been a failure. There are not enough mod makers turning out enough units to satisfy demand - and it's not in the best interest of the industry to stifle demand. We need all the vapers we can get right now while we still can. This is the golden age of vaping."

There are machine shops that can crank out 7000 pcs/month in the USA. The problem is that with that quantity, the price would have to drop so the modders could make up the profit on quantity sales. $200 tube mods would have to sell for $30, that's where the issue lies - Scarcity and people who are willing to drop lots of coin on a scarce item. An additional fact is that the modders won't or can't pay for the setup costs for such a large production run. It ain't cheap.

 

[Fuzzy Bruce]

it's not nice to disparage those of us who aren't as intellectually gifted as you are. vapid folks are people too!

I resemble your remark!

 

[James]

It is funny that none of the hand engraved mods are being cloned.

 

[Zamazam]

It is funny that none of the hand engraved mods are being cloned.

Pay Chinese artisans $30 per piece, and they will get cloned. You do have a point, hand crafted and unique mods will always have a market, although not one that 99% of the vaping population can afford.

 

[Hartoled]

I did see some interesting points made at UKvapers.org when I was looking for the Spheroid clone. (They didn't seem to be having much luck with that "Don't say "clone."" thing.) They were making the point that most every major innovation that had arisen had come from the minds of people in forums who didn't, for the most part, have the wherewithal to put things into production. I doubt most of those geniuses behind the current state of the art are butthurt. They are probably just happy that somebody listened.

I think most of us are just looking for a good vaping experience. Expecting somebody to wait six months to get that is not very realistic. Store owners are happy to have products to sell. Expecting them to close their doors to angry customers the 364 days and 23 hours a year that they don't have a limited run item on hand is not very realistic. I know that once I see "ultra-limited, out of stock" a few times on a site, I take that site off my 'go to' list. If you are making an item that is sold out and enjoying your life, count yourself lucky. Meanwhile, the rest of us gatta vape.

Stop cursing us and trying to silence us and try listening to what we are saying. That next great idea that you need to make your next high-demand item might be in these pages right here. Some of these users know a darned sight more than you think.

 

[Tripster]

I did see some interesting points made at UKvapers.org when I was looking for the Spheroid clone. (They didn't seem to be having much luck with that "Don't say "clone."" thing.) They were making the point that most every major innovation that had arisen had come from the minds of people in forums who didn't, for the most part, have the wherewithal to put things into production. I doubt most of those geniuses behind the current state of the art are butthurt. They are probably just happy that somebody listened.

I think most of us are just looking for a good vaping experience. Expecting somebody to wait six months to get that is not very realistic. Store owners are happy to have products to sell. Expecting them to close their doors to angry customers the 364 days and 23 hours a year that they don't have a limited run item on hand is not very realistic. I know that once I see "ultra-limited, out of stock" a few times on a site, I take that site off my 'go to' list. If you are making an item that is sold out and enjoying your life, count yourself lucky. Meanwhile, the rest of us gatta vape.

Stop cursing us and trying to silence us and try listening to what we are saying. That next great idea that you need to make your next high-demand item might be in these pages right here. Some of these users know a darned sight more than you think.

A successful business listens to Consumers, it's not healthy only doing what YOU want.

 

[InMyImage]

So why it is that most of the Trademarks are pending but the companies are able to file lawsuits? Seems that it would have to be approved for it to be illegal for someone to use that trademark other than the person that applied for the trademark.

A trademark attorney would have to clarify, but I'm not sure that they can actually sue for trademark infrigement before one is actually approved. However they could issue a C&D noting their application, but only in the cases where it is actually being used improperly, in which case assuming it is being used for comparison or reporting type purposes I'm pretty sure that the only thing that is necessary is properly identify the trademark using TM and NOT the circled R which means that it is fully registered and recognized as such by the USPTO.
In the case of counterfeiting, then the company being notified of the C&D based on a trademark application would have the opportunity to contest the trademark validity with the USPTO during the application process for the company trying to claim the trademark. Unless the company "counterfeiting" can show that they used the logo or name legally before the complaining company started using the logo, term, or phrase then the complaining company's trademark application will mostly like get denied. In the case of a proof of first use claim when no TM has been added to a logo, name, or phrase by the complaining party, then the problem probably is something that needs to be addressed directly by an attorney.

In your case, the C&D is pretty much meaningless and possibly even criminal based on federal mail fraud and state harassment laws depending on the knowledge of the attorney, the intent of the complaining party, and they extent to which the harassment pushed. Again, in your case as a reviewer/blogger/linker I'd report anything done from here out to your state's attorney general office. Honestly, I personally would probably do it now.

I'd actually like to talk to the attorney listed on the letterhead to find out details on the claim and depending on the answers determine if they know that they may be knowlingly making false claims that jeopardize their California State Bar standing, or that their clients could be subject to criminal charges depending on how far they push this issue with non-manufacturers and resellers even if their claims are founded.

Note that I identified resellers here, because if the actual parties involved in the dispute do have a valid position then any C&D's sent to resellers are being delivered with just cause.

All of this of course assumes that the group is actually using the attorney specified on the letterhead. I did some research on the attorney listed in the letterhead of the document "delivered" at ECC and while the attorney does appear to have a California State Bar license in good standing, they don't have any online presense whatsoever, and the law firm listed does not advertise them as being a member attorney on their website.

Looking forward to seeing how this all plays out,

Bill

 

[InMyImage]

It is worthwhile to note that the Vape Royalty version of the Manahattan uses a box that is definitely deceptive and would be illegal provided that proper trademarks are in place. However, that wouldn't stop them from reprinting the boxes branding it as "NotAManahattan" kind of like the FUManhattan.

 

[MKPM]

"Womanhattan" DONE!

 

[Celtic Fog]

what if we call clones "homage or homages"....

 

[InMyImage]

what if we call clones "homage or homages"....

I think "replica" is a widely accepted term, or "knock off" in vernacular...

"homage" typically is used to do something to show respect, I doubt that there is much more than simple economics involved in knock-off makers providing an alternative to consumers at a 700% discount in the case of the (bows head in false reverence) Manhattan.

Bill

 

[Hartoled]

what if we call clones "homage or homages"....

I've never had a homage. Well...there was that time in college...

 

[Celtic Fog]

I think "replica" is a widely accepted term, or "knock off" in vernacular...

"homage" typically is used to do something to show respect, I doubt that there is much more than simple economics involved in knock-off makers providing an alternative to consumers at a 700% discount in the case of the (bows head in false reverence) Manhattan.

Bill

I know the definition Bill....but lets see the Authentic makers talk smack to someone paying "homage" to their mods....hmmmmm, hehehehehehe. They would in sence be saying, don't show me respect or admiration....

 

[Hartoled]

what if we call clones "homage or homages"....

So a cloned atty, drip tip and mod would be a Homage a trois?

 

[Celtic Fog]

So a cloned atty, drip tip and mod would be a Homage a trois?

LOLOLOLOLOL, this thread is officially dead, @Hartoled won!

 

[InMyImage]

what if we call clones "homage or homages"....

I know the definition Bill....but lets see the Authentic makers talk smack to someone paying "homage" to their mods....hmmmmm, hehehehehehe. They would in sence be saying, don't show me respect or admiration....

Sorry, thought you were making a suggestion not being sarcastic

I'll take my serious hat off for a while and attempt to catch up on the alternate universe thread

 

[MKPM]

LOLOLOLOLOL, this thread is officially dead, @Hartoled won!

 

[lordmage]

 

[Midniteoyl]

No pawpaw the difference between an authentic consumer and what these jack asses are doing is night and day.
It is like Nabisco telling you the only sandwich cookie is an oreo and all you are allowed to buy is oreo, if you eat a hydrox they are going to threaten you.

You know Hydrox was first, correct? Oreo IS the CLONE

 

[Midniteoyl]

Different country different rules and trade agreements.

But by all means the illegal stateside commission should aim their limitless money guns right the fuck toward china's legal system and fire both barrels... just the idea a "commission" or cartel is an abomination of the very principles of free market and trade, a half way decent lawyer if informed on their actions would be advising them to run not walk away from the folly of chosen venture.

Honestly outside of food, how to survive epic smog, and SARS please give me one example of them producing an original idea or product?

Gun powder..

 

[VapinChevy]

CLONES CLONES CLONES CLONES.... Oops I mentioned them, What happens now?

 

[BigNasty]

Gun powder..

No gun powder no fun today so you are right.

The whole hydrox oreo thing is exactly how this is playing out.
Clone over taking the market.

 

[Midniteoyl]

CLONES CLONES CLONES CLONES.... Oops I mentioned them, What happens now?

.

 

[VapinChevy]

.

LMFAO

 

[Hartoled]

You know...there are a lot more EHPro RBAs out there than Kayfun legits. I wonder if Svoemesto feels like maybe they are lucky we don't start calling them EHPro BC RBA Clones instead of perpetuating their name for them. If Vapour Art doesn't appreciate having the GP Spheroid mentioned in the same sentence as the word "clone", perhaps Taifun would appreciate the fame instead. I bet Yiloon would be tickled pink if bottom coil rebuildables were known henceforth as Fogger clones. Then again...what about Erlkonigins' clones? Those are definitely EHPro BC RBA clones...I mean Kayfun clones.

Building a Tower of Babel to a cheery vaping future!

 

[aikanae]

Do not get confused. Tradmarks are protected from the get-go. No approval required, just registration which anyone can do - if even that. It's like a copymark - assumed.

Product design? Sorry. Requires a patent; $50k - $1mil to file, maybe. Even then, a pipe is probably not 'unique'. Surface design would be a trademark. It's in the counsumer and industry's best interest to not see these things patented because it's rarely the designers that hold the patents and patents require licensing fees. Imagine paying a license fee for every single 510 connection? That's a real life battle in court now. Oh yea, end users can be forced to pay up too (happened with wifi routers). The best image condenser is not in use today due to patents on it. We almost lost .jpg's due to patents by a company that had no intention of ever using / developing / interest in jpg's just because they were the first to file. They do nothing else but collect fees. Several million went into that trial. We are MUCH better off without patents. I have no doubt there are large legal corp. foaming at the mouth to start filing patents on stuff we take for granted right now.

Clones are cool. Trademarks aren't. Trademarks on clone serve as free advertising if mod makers had the intelligence to use it.

 

[Midniteoyl]

No.. Trademarks are NOT 'assumed'.. You can show that you were the first AND that most consumers associate the trademark with your brand, but, unless you go to court and prove it and then register it, the Gov can do NOTHING to stop others from using it.

Copyright, on the other hand, is from date of inception. If you can prove that date

 

[Midniteoyl]

Oh, and its much cheaper than $50k-$1mil. to file a patent.. Dave at Super-T has several in application and at least one awarded.. He didnt spent $50k

 

[MKPM]

I miss my 18650 P+

 

[Tripster]

I miss my 18650 P+

I miss my Original Precise 18650...

 

[Hartoled]

I wonder if they make a 510 connector stun gun for when somebody tries to sneak up on you with a C&D?

 

[Tripster]

I wonder if they make a 510 connector stun gun for when somebody tries to sneak up on you with a C&D?

Patented, Registered, Trademarked, and Copyrighted and outsourced to China...come at me! lmfao!

 

[InMyImage]

Do not get confused. Tradmarks are protected from the get-go. No approval required, just registration which anyone can do - if even that. It's like a copymark - assumed.

Product design? Sorry. Requires a patent; $50k - $1mil to file, maybe. Even then, a pipe is probably not 'unique'. Surface design would be a trademark. It's in the counsumer and industry's best interest to not see these things patented because it's rarely the designers that hold the patents and patents require licensing fees. Imagine paying a license fee for every single 510 connection? That's a real life battle in court now. Oh yea, end users can be forced to pay up too (happened with wifi routers). The best image condenser is not in use today due to patents on it. We almost lost .jpg's due to patents by a company that had no intention of ever using / developing / interest in jpg's just because they were the first to file. They do nothing else but collect fees. Several million went into that trial. We are MUCH better off without patents. I have no doubt there are large legal corp. foaming at the mouth to start filing patents on stuff we take for granted right now.

Clones are cool. Trademarks aren't. Trademarks on clone serve as free advertising if mod makers had the intelligence to use it.

Holy shit, what patent attorney's are you talking about? Complicated ones are only about $5k and run of the mill ones are less than $3k. If you do it yourself it is less that $200 even with a service company that just files the paperwork for you.

Also, you have to file a patent within one year of disclosing it to someone publicly. This includes a patent attorney, so things like a 510 connector are safe, plus probably most of the other existing tech in the industry right now.

 

[Ladygadget]

C&D's for talking about clones? How fucking stupid are these ass-wipes? I'll discuss any fucking thing I want with whomever I want, when I want. We live in America, not the middle east or China.

They all need to find some real work to do....

 

[Ladygadget]

To directly answer your question, only if they have an international trademark. Usa issued trademarks only apply in the usa. So they can send a letter to china and say "stop", but its up to the manufacturer to comply (usually only a good faith gesture which is rare), or not, as they see fit.

The only legal move a trademark holder has is to contact the customs department and "ask" to have the items seized at customs to enforce their USA trademark. However this tactic only makes it difficult to import. Much will still get through. Then the trademark holder has the right to go after the sellers of these trademarked items for damages, if they are known.

All a shop has to do is remove logos, or have china produce the item logoless.... which they are more than happy to do.

I think that they should produce the "clones" with out the logo's etc. Like Buffaloguy said, that's the key. Look at Coach, or Nike, etc.it's the trademark that will stop the importation, but not the idea. And I have no problem with that.

 

[Ladygadget]

How shit, what patent attorney's are you talking about? Complicated ones are only about $5 and run of the mill ones are less than $3. If you do it yourself it is less that $200 even with a service company that just files the paperwork for you.

Also, you have to file a patent within one year of disclosing it to someone publicly. This includes a patent attorney, so things like a 510 connector are safe, plus probably most of the other existing tech in the industry right now.

Yes, but in the case of the E-Cig technology, there are no unique patents filed that ever meant a crap. And the reality is a Chinese citizen created the mass market version of the e-cig. The guy in 1962 or whatever perhaps did invent the "E-cig", but did not defend his patent if he ever filed for one.

 

[InMyImage]

Yes, but in the case of the E-Cig technology, there are no unique patents filed that ever meant a crap. And the reality is a Chinese citizen created the mass market version of the e-cig. The guy in 1962 or whatever perhaps did invent the "E-cig", but did not defend his patent if he ever filed for one.

Sorry, I'm not sure if you are trying to agree with me or not?

 

[NiteWolfe Creations]

I would be ok with leaving off the company name but i still want the artwork in place! Which i highly suspect the authentic grabbed off a open source anyways.
But if any company logo is not trademarked i say fair game!

 

[tooitchy]

Different country different rules and trade agreements.

But by all means the illegal stateside commission should aim their limitless money guns right the fuck toward china's legal system and fire both barrels... just the idea a "commission" or cartel is an abomination of the very principles of free market and trade, a half way decent lawyer if informed on their actions would be advising them to run not walk away from the folly of chosen venture.

Honestly outside of food, how to survive epic smog, and SARS please give me one example of them producing an original idea or product?

Uh.... Innokin AND joyetech are Chinese companies, and joyetech is arguably one of the most innovative companies in the ecig industry (maybe not the best, most useful innovations but they sure as hell aren't cloning anyone with things like the eVic) , and Innokin has created a number of completely original vv/vw mods, and are among some of the most reliable mods in the industry.

China has one of the most capitalistic markets in the world's when it comes to what they choose to manufacture, they make what people want, period.

 

[Hartoled]

Here is something to munch on for stores who fancy themselves as elite merchandisers: When you list out of stock, limited-run items, you are making yourselves look pathetic, giving out free advertising to people who are not adequately supporting you or your customers AND hanging huge CLONE THIS! signs on those products. By the time your next order of precious elite objects will arrive, you are likely to have seen them listed by and delivered from Slowtech to be cheaply offered on Ebay.

 

[Eastender]

This brings back the past concerning Metallica and their lawsuits against fans and downloaders. They won as any entity with enough cash will do. If the commission continues to go unchecked then eventually they will in fact have the legal right.

The elite vaporer comprises about 20% while the middle man/woman with a budget can only pay about 20 for a cloned kayfun. Makes no sense to me to pay 190 for a kayfun. Likewise, why pay more for a set of metal tubing where the threads are "buttery smooth" (fucking rip tripper).

Additionally the fault lies along the backs of these mod reviewers who bring more confusion. Avoid P brusardo, ruby Roo, fucking grimm green fuck head, Todd the pretentious fuck in the shed.

Boycotting the above along with the commission and their products and vendors would send out the message desperately needed.

 

[Midniteoyl]

Tell us how you really feel..

 

[kelli]

...and ask us if we care.

 

[Eastender]

...and ask us if we care.

Felt good.. Somebody had to say it at some point. Either you're sheep or a true individual..

 

[kelli]

Felt good.. Somebody had to say it at some point. Either you're sheep or a true individual..

glad you feel better, but probably could have been said without so much vitriol. just sayin'. and put out that stinkie!

 

[Eastender]

glad you feel better, but probably could have been said without so much vitriol. just sayin'. and put out that stinkie!

Agreed kelli... Guess I had too much angst while swiping the post with my HTC.. You can get carried away while having lunch at Starbucks and drowning in mocha latte... (another please!)... Lol

 

[Hartoled]

This brings back the past concerning Metallica and their lawsuits against fans and downloaders. They won as any entity with enough cash will do. If the commission continues to go unchecked then eventually they will in fact have the legal right.

The elite vaporer comprises about 20% while the middle man/woman with a budget can only pay about 20 for a cloned kayfun. Makes no sense to me to pay 190 for a kayfun. Likewise, why pay more for a set of metal tubing where the threads are "buttery smooth" (fucking rip tripper).

Additionally the fault lies along the backs of these mod reviewers who bring more confusion. Avoid P brusardo, ruby Roo, fucking grimm green fuck head, Todd the pretentious fuck in the shed.

Boycotting the above along with the commission and their products and vendors would send out the message desperately needed.

Just once, I would like to see one of these popular reviewers accept the challenge to prove that he is real and not such a big shot that he doesn't need to empathize with the poor scum that he makes his reviews for. I wish he would pick the unicorn setup of his choice, budget all of his funds for a month on it and set about getting the pieces. Until he got them, just vape what everybody probably has in their kits, Egos and clearomizers. No fair using his fame to get special treatment. No exorbitant overnight shipping fees, no good ol' boy back scratching, just be a man and do it right. Then, when he get his items, come back and review them, and give his honest impression of the entire experience. No need to make excuses for this or that, no need to kiss any asses because they are such great guys for giving him stuff or because he expects to see them around the vape circuit, just keep it real.

I know that we all like to see what is new, state of the art, and pretty and stylish. Many of us also want to have a hope in hell of acquiring said objects of desire. It seems to me that a lot of these guys gear their entire channels to the lucky 25-50 people, out of their tens of thousands of subscribers, who already got the items before they disappeared and are just looking for someplace to brag about it. Meanwhile, the maker of those hard-to-find objects are making mental notes (probably correctly) that they actually paid for that advertising on that reviewer's channel. The truth of the matter is, we are paying for those guys to wave their dicks in our faces with our views and subscriptions. To that degree, you feel a bit ripped off, teased, tormented, misled, used, insulted, demeaned, ect., to have been looking for something solid and getting only vapors.

Lately, I have been giving thumbs down for reviews of items not in stock, or requiring a waiting list. I might even leave a chiding comment if I think it might help.

 

[Eastender]

Sin City - Marv is ready for war.:

This sums up my feelings concerning this matter..

 

[kelli]

lol....hyperbole much??

 

[muth]

It is funny that none of the hand engraved mods are being cloned.

My beautiful Peggy from Fasttech is deeply engraved.