Is there a God?

[Surf Monkey]

Paper is like the net you can write anything on it.

Not to mention that stories of Jesus existed as oral tradition only for nearly 200 years before anyone wrote it down. One massive game of telephone that ends in texts that are designed to further an an agenda that may or may not have thing one to do with what the man Jesus actually said or did.

 

[martnargh]

1) Still not a "random explosion."

2) You need to go look up the SCIENTIFIC definition of the word "theory" because you're applying the colloquial definition. HUGE difference.

So remove the word explosion then, it was still a random event that may or may not have happened, depending on who you ask.

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[Surf Monkey]

So remove the word explosion then, it was still a random event that may or may not have happened, depending on who you ask.

1) It did happen. The evidence is undeniable and you can examine it yourself if you so choose.

2) The characterization of it as a "random event" is intentionally poisoning the well. Because you're trying to apply it as a pejorative. But the laws that rule our physical world weren't in play in the moment of expansion so the assertion that it "just happened" is incorrect. We don't know what caused the singularity to start expanding, but the fact that we don't know doesn't indicate that it was god. That's the God of the gaps argument. Fallacy.

 

[Time]

The exact same thing could be said of you, Sir. Instead of rebutting her, you bash her. How god-like of you. You must be proud.

There is no hiding the fact that MT had some shady dealings with criminals and their money. There is also the aspect of questionable treatment given to many poor folks by her. And her practice of trying to indoctrinate these people into HER faith.The Catholic church as created a myth and people bought it. That's a shame because there are many, many good people who HAVE served the poor faithfully and never receive credit for it. Of course, they weren't LOOKING for credit. They were doing what they thought was morally right and within their abilities.

Ad hominem argument against MT, or even Jesus for that matter, does nothing to answer any questions about god. There was nothing to rebut. Hashing and rehashing the merits of the individuals is indeed banal. It's been well discussed for many many years, by almost,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,everybody.

 

[martnargh]

It cant really be fallacy unless it is proven it WASNT god.... until now we know one thing, that we dont know shit.
Random explosion makes sense to you, god makes sense to me, aliens makes sense to others, etc etc.

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[Surf Monkey]

It cant really be fallacy unless it is proven it WASNT god.... until now we know one thing, that we dont know shit.
Random explosion makes sense to you, god makes sense to me, aliens makes sense to others, etc etc.

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"We don't know, so it must have been God."

That's a fallacy.

The accurate statement is "We don't know. Period."

 

[Pipug]

Ad hominem argument against MT, or even Jesus for that matter, does nothing to answer any questions about god. There was nothing to rebut. Hashing and rehashing the merits of the individuals is indeed banal. It's been well discussed for many many years, by almost,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,everybody.

I wasn't the one who brought it up. Just replying to the nasties.
Carry on

 

[martnargh]

A fallacy is a mistaken belief, must be proven of being mistaken in order to call it a fallacy... youre interpretation of it all is its a fallacy, just as how i see the big bang theory as a fallacy. Dont you love how that works?

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[Time]

I wasn't the one who brought it up. Just replying to the nasties.
Carry on

There is nothing nasty about describing an argument as banal.

ba·nal
bəˈnäl,bəˈnal/
adjective
adjective: banal
so lacking in originality as to be obvious and boring.

 

[Pipug]

There is nothing nasty about describing an argument as banal.

ba·nal
bəˈnäl,bəˈnal/
adjective
adjective: banal
so lacking in originality as to be obvious and boring.

It's all good.

 

[f1r3b1rd]

The fact that a man named Jesus did exist proves nothing about God.

that was my point, but If someone cant even accept the fact that the man did live this entire conversation reached a whole new level of pointlessness.

just proves the point I have been trying to make for 3 days now


just gave me what I needed to lurk this thread and not post further.

 

[DC2]

A fallacy is a mistaken belief, must be proven of being mistaken in order to call it a fallacy... youre interpretation of it all is its a fallacy, just as how i see the big bang theory as a fallacy.

Just to clarify, he is talking about "logical fallacy" which does not mean that the gist of what you said is false.
It means that your argument contains a "logical fallacy" that makes what you said a bit less than logical.

That doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong though.

Faith certainly requires no logic, and in some ways almost requires a lack of logic.
He was just saying that the way you tried to say what you said does not hold up to logical scrutiny.

Still does make either one of you right or wrong.
And logic is not God.

You know what the saddest part of threads like this is?

Its when you see people on this forum that you thought you had something in common with or similar views say things and it rubs you the wrong way and and that opinion of them is "soured".

I usually stay away from topics to do with religion and politics. Ive done a pretty good job with the subject of religion and never had too many head butting moments or lost friends over it, Politics, thats one that really has left a sore spot.

To think that someone you had in high regard, great moments, kind and caring times , and BOOM, its gone in one moment over something petty as human rights, racism and politics.

I totally agree, and starting this thread was a mistake on my part.
I'm sure the moderators aren't thrilled with the extra work.

All I wanted was a place to post my poem!

 

[f1r3b1rd]

 

[martnargh]

Just to clarify, he is talking about "logical fallacy" which does not mean that the gist of what you said is false.
It means that your argument contains a "logical fallacy" that makes what you said a bit less than logical.

That doesn't mean you aren't right, and faith certainly requires no logic, and in fact almost requires a lack of logic.
He was just saying that the way you tried to say what you said does not hold up to logical scrutiny.

Still does make either one of you right or wrong.



I totally agree, and starting this thread was a mistake on my part.
I'm sure the moderators aren't thrilled with the extra work.

All I wanted was a place to post my poem!

I dont believe in logic, the very definition of the word varies, depending what is accepted as valid.
Your logic is not mine, and common logic doesnt exist, really.
Fallacy is still fallacy. I dont do well when it comes to play on words, im not a lawyer or a politician nor is english even my native tongue, so it makes little sense to me and seems more of a diversion from the point in general.


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[pulsevape]

I've been here all along. Just haven't seen the need to speak in this thread until your post. I don't even know Surf Monkey OR Azriel. And I am not an ECF troll. I have hardly ever posted there. Not that that's any of your business. Just trying to point out that you are talking of things you know nothing of, Dear Sir.

And while I am here, I will say this. I am an atheist, but I respect people of TRUE faith, that is to say, those that believe in goodness, kindness, love of fellow man, giving, moral people. I don't happen to believe the myth of MT. She has been debunked. Full stop. Not saying she hasn't done good deeds, but she has a bucket load of misdeeds under her habit. Now, that is NOT dissing ANYONE'S faith. Merely pointing out a few facts about a religious person that I find to be "not so god-like" as some who see her.

rubbish... you ecf trolls don't have the integrity of a 20 dollar streetwalker that's why most of us left. you didn't pipe up all morning until one of your felllow ecf trolls called for help...what's up nothing happening over at ECF....

 

[Surf Monkey]

A fallacy is a mistaken belief, must be proven of being mistaken in order to call it a fallacy... youre interpretation of it all is its a fallacy, just as how i see the big bang theory as a fallacy. Dont you love how that works?

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Love how what works? You mimicking what I said without understanding it?

The God of the Gaps Fallacy is a classic fallacy invented by Christian theologians to dispel the whole argument that "I don't know" = "God must have done it."

Witness:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

Meanwhile, Big Bang theory is not a fallacy. It's based on observations and experiments that you can replicate if you so choose.

 

[Surf Monkey]

rubbish... you ecf trolls don't have the integrity of a 20 dollar streetwalker that's why most of us left. you didn't pipe up all morning until one of your felllow ecf trolls called for help...what's up nothing happening over at ECF....

It's super easy to make unsupported claims and angry attacks. But the real question is, do you actually have game? No evidence of it so far, just endless impotent flailing.

 

[martnargh]

Love how what works? You mimicking what I said without understanding it?

The God of the Gaps Fallacy is a classic fallacy invented by Christian theologians to dispel the whole argument that "I don't know" = "God must have done it."

Witness:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

Meanwhile, Big Bang theory is not a fallacy. It's based on observations and experiments that you can replicate if you so choose.

Its not conclusive, its fallacy, by your definition.

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[martnargh]

Also, the god of gaps thing you talk about goes both ways, only science provides fancy words. Point is it is unknown. When we die, we will know, then we can tell eachother "told ya so". Until then, science feeds just as much bs as the nonbelievers think the church does.

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[DC2]

As a physics minor I believe science is leading us closer and closer to seeing God's plan.
As a philosophy minor I believe man is leading us closer and closer to not understanding a damn thing.

As a psychology major I believe man is entirely fallible.
And generally imperfect in nearly every possible way imaginable.

Science and nature are God's paintbrush.
The human mind his folly.

 

[The Cromwell]

Not to mention that stories of Jesus existed as oral tradition only for nearly 200 years before anyone wrote it down. One massive game of telephone that ends in texts that are designed to further an an agenda that may or may not have thing one to do with what the man Jesus actually said or did.

Gossip for 200 years? You know that is accurate.

 

[The Cromwell]

"We don't know, so it must have been God."

That's a fallacy.

The accurate statement is "We don't know. Period."

Not knowing is scary as hell to many/most? People.

 

[Jimi D]

God is a computer programmer. All his children are 10000110000011000001000001111110000 Lol

 

[snake94115]

And we're 2-0 with people needing to quantify an otherwise correct statement. I'm curious as to why that is? (As in, actually curious as to why you and @martnargh felt compelled to quantify it, not that I'm trying to troll you out on it.)

I felt the statement was slightly deceptive and possibly purposely so.Technically it was incorrect as well...Cheers!

 

[snake94115]

You should see the ones in hiding

Dude you are seriously scary sometimes.

 

[snake94115]

You should see me in Cosplay then lmfao!

I don't think my old heart could take it...But go ahead I'll get the gel-caps out and handy.LMAO

 

[raymo2u]

Dude you are seriously scary sometimes.

There's nothing to be worried or scared about....Firearms are more then "Death Dealers", they are tools, a hobby, a way to take out frustration, hone in one hand-eye coordination, steadying you hands/grip, and teach you to respect power. Firearms are great tools and learning to use one can provide you with a advantage if anything happens for survival or defense. Its only dangerous in uninformed hands. Ive owned a 22LR and a 12g since I was 6 years old and I was taught how to tear down and clean it, load it and fire it, I learned that with the power it has it needs to be respected and only used with full intent.
Most people think of guns as "Weapons to kill", they have given my country freedom and the power to unite...

 

[Azriel Mysterious]

rubbish... you ecf trolls don't have the integrity of a 20 dollar streetwalker that's why most of us left. you didn't pipe up all morning until one of your felllow ecf trolls called for help...what's up nothing happening over at ECF....

Never once did I "call for help". Your impotence doesn't effect me. Full stop.

Nothing you say is going to upset me. Troll elsewhere.

 

[raymo2u]

Never once did I "call for help". Your impotence doesn't effect me. Full stop.

Nothing you say is going to upset me. Troll elsewhere.

View attachment 49364

Your Meme made me laugh

 

[f1r3b1rd]

There's nothing to be worried or scared about....Firearms are more then "Death Dealers", they are tools, a hobby, a way to take out frustration, hone in one hand-eye coordination, steadying you hands/grip, and teach you to respect power. Firearms are great tools and learning to use one can provide you with a advantage if anything happens for survival or defense. Its only dangerous in uninformed hands. Ive owned a 22LR and a 12g since I was 6 years old and I was taught how to tear down and clean it, load it and fire it, I learned that with the power it has it needs to be respected and only used with full intent.
Most people think of guns as "Weapons to kill", they have given my country freedom and the power to unite...

had to check what state you were in.
spoken like a true, good ole southern boy.
well done sir.

 

[Pipug]

rubbish... you ecf trolls don't have the integrity of a 20 dollar streetwalker that's why most of us left. you didn't pipe up all morning until one of your felllow ecf trolls called for help...what's up nothing happening over at ECF....

I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man. See ya, Chump

As to the rest of you, thank you for your honest discussion on both sides. I have a lot of respect for that.

 

[raymo2u]

had to check what state you were in.
spoken like a true, good ole southern boy.
well done sir.

Im actually almost in Canada Vermont is the Northeast...one of the first of the 13 Colonies

Only 2 State Gun Laws here, Have to be 15 to buy a gun (Any age to posses) and no suppressors, which I think is being turned over now...

 

[f1r3b1rd]

Im actually almost in Canada Vermont is the Northeast...one of the first of the 13 Colonies

LMAO, roger right on Lake Champlain, right? . You don't hear that sort of response with firearms often from that part of the country. My ex father in Law is originally from up there.

 

[raymo2u]

LMAO, roger right on Lake Champlain, right? . You don't hear that sort of response with firearms often from that part of the country. My ex father in Law is originally from up there.

Yea every state around us seems pretty uptight, I left LI, NY for that very reason...Seemed like it was going the same way Cali is now and thats not something I like...I love VT but the new Tax on Vape products is pretty absurd...

 

[Whiskey]

LMAO, roger right on Lake Champlain, right? . You don't hear that sort of response with firearms often from that part of the country. My ex father in Law is originally from up there.

Ohhhh another neighbor

 

[snake94115]

There was one or two collections written by an actual apostle and witness of Jesus. Luke, Acts or the epistles, I cant remember, I haven't taken any of the courses in this in 15years, But, I know it is generally accepted that 1 or all of those three, were authored by actual followers of jesus.
additionally, There is proof of written record by the romans, that Jesus, the man, did in fact live.

Luke possibly could have been.I'll get back to that in a moment.Keep in mind most of the New Testament was in fact written hundreds of years after Christ.I'll tackle that at the end.Luke is an interesting case as he is credited with writing quite a bit of the New Testament while at the time being a disciple.This has come up for debate several times and in my opinion the jury is still out.
Here is where you might want to take a drink before reading further...Which Jesus?
Sorry which Christ?
No wait hold on, or was it Barabbas?
Yes there is actual written records of his life using each of those names.Not to mention Yahweh ben Joseph and Yahweh ben Israel as well.Take another drink...Keep in mind you're my friend and I'm not trolling you.
There seems to be at least 1 instance where he was in at least 2 places at once as well.
Yep the whole Crucifixion scene where Barabbas is freed but Christ is killed.
My big problem is over the years and years of studying religion I've learned way too much about the subject.Yet I find myself still believing it,and not just wanting to believe it.
Confused yet?
Anyhow thanks for hearing me out...Cheers!

 

[snake94115]

The poorest, the prostitutes, the scum of ciilization, thats who Jesus broke bread with.

Actually fishermen back then were wealthy.So were stonemasons which is probably what Christ was and not a carpenter.

EDIT : AS FOR THE WHOLE PROSTITUTE THEORY.
If you mean (Mary Magdalene) sorry but there's tons and tons of proof she was never a prostitute.That I know of back then the only real outcast would have been Luke.

 

[f1r3b1rd]

Luke possibly could have been.I'll get back to that in a moment.Keep in mind most of the New Testament was in fact written hundreds of years after Christ.I'll tackle that at the end.Luke is an interesting case as he is credited with writing quite a bit of the New Testament while at the time being a disciple.This has come up for debate several times and in my opinion the jury is still out.
Here is where you might want to take a drink before reading further...Which Jesus?
Sorry which Christ?
No wait hold on, or was it Barabbas?
Yes there is actual written records of his life using each of those names.Not to mention Yahweh ben Joseph and Yahweh ben Israel as well.Take another drink...Keep in mind you're my friend and I'm not trolling you.
There seems to be at least 1 instance where he was in at least 2 places at once as well.
Yep the whole Crucifixion scene where Barabbas is freed but Christ is killed.
My big problem is over the years and years of studying religion I've learned way too much about the subject.Yet I find myself still believing it,and not just wanting to believe it.
Confused yet?
Anyhow thanks for hearing me out...Cheers!

agreed, Jesus was a common name in that part of the world at that time. I was making the case that the Jesus who became regonized as a prophet by Islam, the son of God to Christians and the son of Mary to the rest of the world; should be, even by those who do not believe in God, be recognized as having walked the face of the earth. Without that even being accepted this entire topic of discussion is entirely worthless.
As to Luke, you would certainly know much more of that than I would. I would be interested in learning more. I know he is to have authored Luke and acts. Additionally, ive read where some of the epistles and letters were written by Paul? or Peter?
I know the rest was all written between 200 and 300 AD and the Gnostic gospels written much later; but, so much controversy with those, that even as a believer I cant take them to seriously.

 

[snake94115]

there isnt any proof of anything bigger then ourselves

Er...Mountains,Elephants,Blue Whales.Yep those things don't exist.

 

[snake94115]

There is no historical evidence for Jesus outside of the bible.

https://thechurchoftruth.org/no-evidence-for-jesus-outside-bible/

Oh I've seen and looked into that.I like to call it what it is "Self perpetuating lies".
As I mentioned earlier there are in fact actual historic records of him.

 

[raymo2u]

Er...Mountains,Elephants,Blue Whales.Yep those things don't exist.

I meant spiritually..not in actual hieght

 

[snake94115]

You dont need to share my views....but yes I myself would believe you follow a false cause.

Damn...Just Saying.
So you're a nihilist?

 

[John Q Public]

Not to mention that stories of Jesus existed as oral tradition only for nearly 200 years before anyone wrote it down. One massive game of telephone that ends in texts that are designed to further an an agenda that may or may not have thing one to do with what the man Jesus actually said or did.

History passed down by first person witnesses. The Apostles.
But I digress. All of history disappears once the witnesses die out. Sweet logic.

 

[snake94115]

This is why I say the two boards are the same. You're trying to make me the instigator. But that's not true. Your people called me out. They're still doing it.

Reread what he said.He didn't accuse you of instigating.He stated you were stirring the pot.Which you were in fact doing.You weren't the only 1 that did so.I'm just as guilty and I know it...Cheers!

 

[snake94115]

No need to get angry fellas, we can have a chatter without insults.

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I really wished I could double like a post.

 

[John Q Public]

There is no historical evidence for Jesus outside of the bible.

https://thechurchoftruth.org/no-evidence-for-jesus-outside-bible/

This of course, is incorrect.

http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/

 

[snake94115]

The accurate statement is "We don't know. Period."

This so needs a song.

 

[martnargh]

What does quantify mean? I looked it up, as i have a few dozen other words mentionrd in this thread, yet i still dont get the context in which is was used earlier...
Thought i had a solid understanding on the english language, turns out i dont.
Live and learn.

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[snake94115]

that was my point, but If someone cant even accept the fact that the man did live this entire conversation reached a whole new level of pointlessness.

just proves the point I have been trying to make for 3 days now


just gave me what I needed to lurk this thread and not post further.

Beer coffee or Absinthe?

 

[snake94115]

Faith certainly requires no logic, and in some ways almost requires a lack of logic.

Tom Selleck once talked about how actors create a suspension of disbelief and cited cartoons as being the best at it.
(Wile E. Coyote vs the Cliff)
You ain't got to be a genius to understand a cartoon,and even if you are a genius it wouldn't mean you couldn't enjoy 1.