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Preparing for Regulations?

sk7175

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***** is illegal according to the federal government, but pipes and rolling papers are not. I still think regulating nicotine is our biggest fear.
 
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SailCat

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Ban cotton? No. :D

When vapeagedon comes down the manufacturers will have to pay BIG bucks to get anything approved by the FDA and the FDA will drag their feet in the approval process and listen to their buds in BT's money. This means only cigalikes with sealed cartridges will get approved. I've heard too many stories of the regulated mods dieing. Who would be around to fix them since you won't be able to replace them? I don't know about you, but I'm not going to be using a Blu, or Vuse, or whatever model BT comes up with.

My motto: Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst...

Oh, I agree with you. My regulated mods will die and have died along the way.

I agree with you, I just don't like agreeing with you. :)
ETA: On this topic. Otherwise, it makes my day to agree with you.
 
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Time

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Stocked up.

No regulation will stop me from vaping and better yet, my cost cannot go up whether due to regulation, tax nor good old fashioned inflation.
 

wayne.walkerr

Member For 4 Years
@HeadInClouds I'm not worried about flavorings becoming regulated. I'm worried about them being accessible. People are having issues already finding flavorings they need. I want to know how these flavoring companies will handle traffic when they entire consumer base is moving to DIY. I'm also wondering if any flavoring companies will see pressure from the government. We know there are a couple companies that will break away from vaping if need be.
 

Huckleberried

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I would hope to see the vendors carrying a much larger stock. With some flavors taking a long time to ship, I REALLY hope they'll order LARGER quantities.
 

Mattp169

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the vendors can order all they want, its the manufacturers that have to keep up with demand
 

Kleinman

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This ban talk is somewhat new to me.
What exactly is their argument as to why these things should be banned/regulated?

Certainly they (.gov) aren't blatantly arguing that they aren't making enough money off of it as we all know is the real reason for these types of things.
 

Time

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The FDA has sent their regulation proposals to the White House for approval and nobody really knows what the regulations will entail for certain.

Some states have already proposed and/or implemented some regulation, bans and tax.

For the most part, juice makers are targeted but some like Big Tobacco propose to outright ban open vape systems(add your own juice to tank or coil) and only admit closed vape systems(Vuse, Blu, cigalikes with tank/coils that can't be refilled).

That's it in a nutshell. You can browse the forum for details.
 

pete67

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My son and I have enough nic for two life times. I have enough boards for VV/VW box mods all the wire and tanks and everything I will ever need.
 

MySaladDays

Member For 4 Years
What I think is funny is that everybody wants to point the finger at Obama for "trying to take away their geeeeeeens". Personally, I think Obama is in bed with the gun/ammo manufacturers and used a bit of fear-mongering Chicago-style deep-dish gun regulation speech to drum up sales for them.

Surely I can't be the only one that thinks this.

No you are not. EVERY investor if you read investor boards knows this. :)

Which is why, most of the time, I read investor boards, and not the freaking out stuff on vaping forums, no offense to anyone, but if you want to know where things really are going you follow the money.

Big investors aren't making huge cash infusions into things that are going to "go away", you know.

And yes, Obama being anti gun certainly put a run on gun sales, as a matter of fact,, you would probably be surprised at how much money certain investors made.

I guess the way I look at EVERY announcemnt, because I am naturally cynical about such things, is I first try to figure out "who stands to gain here?"

consumers are often not very savvy about things that affect them, in other words, what is bad for the consumer is often making billionaires out of somebody else.

And, often that gain is appreicated by some of the very entities who claim that they are working for "your" interests. Look behind the curtain, always. Figure out who is hooked up with whom and why, and what they stand to gain, before putting all your eggs in a basket.

Just sayin'
 
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MySaladDays

Member For 4 Years
Some states have already proposed and/or implemented some regulation, bans and tax.

From what I've seen in last few years, these implementations you speak of have FAR out-paced what most people worried about with the FDA.

How much more could they possibly do to people who live in IN for instance?

The local and state bans have been pretty brutal. By the time the FDA stuff has legs will be 2 years from now..... or more.

If I may make an analogy I believe the FDA boogeyman approach has caused troops to be sent to places where they have nothing to fight yet so they are just sitting around waiting...... while the real attacks are coming from 20 other places and the snipers have been picking us off.
 

Time

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From what I've seen in last few years, these implementations you speak of have FAR out-paced what most people worried about with the FDA.

How much more could they possibly do to people who live in IN for instance?

The local and state bans have been pretty brutal. By the time the FDA stuff has legs will be 2 years from now..... or more.

If I may make an analogy I believe the FDA boogeyman approach has caused troops to be sent to places where they have nothing to fight yet so they are just sitting around waiting...... while the real attacks are coming from 20 other places and the snipers have been picking us off.

That's largely true but many states have yet jump on board. Just the FDA designating vaping as a tobacco product will leapfrog the process and make it harder to resist at the state level. In other words, it's not just about the FDA no matter what the regulations are or are not. It's the same old regulation "creep" that comes after.
 

MySaladDays

Member For 4 Years
Even ProVape (ProVari maker) is a little guy compared to BT. It will be very easy for them to shut down B&Ms and the online vendors if they try to sell unapproved equipment.

As I said in another post I watch where investments are being made. I watch when companies get huge cash infusions from multi millionaires, etc.

I am not sure why Provape would have dedicated the R&D, investmnt, etc into coming out with a new box mod, the Radius, if they were thinking they would be out of biz soon.

Of course, even if the FDA cripples vaping, it looks like it will be at least anotehr 2 years before things happen.

Some companies are in industries for short term, and nothing wrong with that. they get in , get out, then move on to the next big thing with a nice bankroll.

Again, what is bad for the consumer is not always bad for businesses and when you think otherwise is when you really get crewed. Unless you believe that people are out there starting businesses to be nice to you and help you. :)
 

Kleinman

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While this all bothers me and I hope it will not affect other vapers that are not prepared.
I give them a big fuck you by stocking up on mods, rdas and NIC.

However I also fear for our future generations. Just like the "War on guns," our gov has all the time in the world. We can be prepared with all we can use in our lifetime whether it is guns/ammo/vape supplies, but the end game is that eventually supplies will run out/can't be transferred after the owner dies and they will win.

This end game also includes not being able to shoot/vape in public without being fined or arrested. So you are limited to what you can do on your own property and that is the goal. They know they can't ban all this shit.
 

z man

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Big T & Big P wants use to roll over and go back to sucking on little tubes of death so We can pay 7.00 to 10.00 bucks a pack,75% is TAX and go to the Doc with a nagging cough and heart problems for a scrip to fill with money You don't have..:(...Z
 

nightshard

It's VG/PG not PG/VG
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PG, VG and concentrated flavor are widely used by the food and cosmetics industries and can't be related directly to vaping.
The main problem is nic base, so I suppose people will just switch to stronger (1000mg/ml) smaller (10ml) containers and hope they don't get caught.
 

Time

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I am not sure why Provape would have dedicated the R&D, investmnt, etc into coming out with a new box mod, the Radius, if they were thinking they would be out of biz soon.

Um, because much like iphone and air jordan crowds, vapers spend millions on the next new thing and start pre-ordering the things before they're even available. Never mind that it's just a phone, shoes or battery. Povapes will make their money back in short order. A regulation that isn't going to be official for a couple months isn't going to stop anyone from raking in cash now. This has been going on for some time. Hell, I can't even remember 2/3'ds of the new shit that came out in the last year that was the next must have item. If Provapes is gearing their production line based on future regulation they'd miss out on an ass load of cash. I can't speak for them but I'd be pumping out the shiniest shit I thought people would buy and pay no attention to coming regs. It's only worth $199 for a short time.
 

nightshard

It's VG/PG not PG/VG
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Um, because much like iphone and air jordan crowds, vapers spend millions on the next new thing and start pre-ordering the things before they're even available. Never mind that it's just a phone, shoes or battery. Povapes will make their money back in short order. A regulation that isn't going to be official for a couple months isn't going to stop anyone from raking in cash now. This has been going on for some time. Hell, I can't even remember 2/3'ds of the new shit that came out in the last year that was the next must have item. If Provapes is gearing their production line based on future regulation they'd miss out on an ass load of cash. I can't speak for them but I'd be pumping out the shiniest shit I thought people would buy and pay no attention to coming regs. It's only worth $199 for a short time.
It all makes sense besides the fact that it's worth 199$

More like costs 199$ and worth 19.9
 

SailCat

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people will just switch to stronger (1000mg/ml) smaller (10ml) containers and hope they don't get caught.

Oh, goodness, what a bad idea.

Consider first that the feds will not be breaking down doors in order to search freezers for nic.

Secondly, I would paraphrase George Carlin, who said (more or less), "If you consider yourself of average intelligence, look around. Half those people are stupider than you."

Another thought occurs to me and while I may be an optimist, it is a hope I'm sure we can share. Without crossing the line of VU rules, consider that some states have seen the wisdom of passing their own legislation even though it opposes Federal law, If oh, say, Colorado, Washington and Oregon (go Ducks!) realize that vaping is better than not vaping. perhaps they will allow this positive alternative to smoking.

VORMAL, the movement to legalize vaping. Oh, lordy, I hope that's not really in our future.
 

guyakaguy

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Oh, goodness, what a bad idea.

Consider first that the feds will not be breaking down doors in order to search freezers for nic.

Secondly, I would paraphrase George Carlin, who said (more or less), "If you consider yourself of average intelligence, look around. Half those people are stupider than you."

Another thought occurs to me and while I may be an optimist, it is a hope I'm sure we can share. Without crossing the line of VU rules, consider that some states have seen the wisdom of passing their own legislation even though it opposes Federal law, If oh, say, Colorado, Washington and Oregon (go Ducks!) realize that vaping is better than not vaping. perhaps they will allow this positive alternative to smoking.

VORMAL, the movement to legalize vaping. Oh, lordy, I hope that's not really in our future.
it'd be NORVL. The "V" would be where the "M" was. Or in Colorado it'd be NORMVL.

The other solution is to ditch the nicotine.

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stevegmu

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As I said in another post I watch where investments are being made. I watch when companies get huge cash infusions from multi millionaires, etc.

I am not sure why Provape would have dedicated the R&D, investmnt, etc into coming out with a new box mod, the Radius, if they were thinking they would be out of biz soon.

Of course, even if the FDA cripples vaping, it looks like it will be at least anotehr 2 years before things happen.

Some companies are in industries for short term, and nothing wrong with that. they get in , get out, then move on to the next big thing with a nice bankroll.

Again, what is bad for the consumer is not always bad for businesses and when you think otherwise is when you really get crewed. Unless you believe that people are out there starting businesses to be nice to you and help you. :)

ProVape has probably read and understood the proposals...
 

stevegmu

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Ya got proof of that or are you just shitting out of your mouth? I'd love to read them, cough it up.

I wasn't replying to you. I prefer to speak with those educated enough not to speak like hooligans...
 

stevegmu

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From what I've seen in last few years, these implementations you speak of have FAR out-paced what most people worried about with the FDA.

How much more could they possibly do to people who live in IN for instance?

The local and state bans have been pretty brutal. By the time the FDA stuff has legs will be 2 years from now..... or more.

If I may make an analogy I believe the FDA boogeyman approach has caused troops to be sent to places where they have nothing to fight yet so they are just sitting around waiting...... while the real attacks are coming from 20 other places and the snipers have been picking us off.

It's funny because the activists take credit for stopping proposals which would never have passed, yet Indiana, Arkansas, Massachusetts and Texas haven't been mentioned since the legislation was approved...
 

Doots

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Ever heard of Snus? Drop a few bags into 30ml of base and you have yourself juice whenever you like at about 6mg. Heat it up some base with your Snus packets on the stove(RIGHT BELOW SIMMER POINT) for 30 minutes to extract the nic . put it in your bottle and you are done. enjoy! I have done this many times starting 6 years ago. It works and is totally legal to do.

this is in worse case scenario of course, it works good! You just made your first NET. :)
 

SailCat

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I'm not sure who else noticed, but stevegmu's signature is revealing regarding his Czechoslovakian views on many subjects here at VU:

Agent for Nonconforming Truth and common Sense

In the US, we commonly abbreviate it ANTZ.
 

Chaotic_Vapes

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Every body here is basically saying nic this nic that right? We only need to worry about nic. Well I hate to break it to you but you're all SOL if the vaping devices we use can't be sold. I heard they want all e cigs equivalent to one on the market of 2007.

Correct me if I'm wrong but uh, no point to a bunch of vg juice if you have nothing to vape it in. And don't even let me get started on juice with more than 50% vg... I'm fairly sure nothing in 2007 can handle anything other than the shitty cigarette store juice...

But seriously, correct me if I'm wrong and I'm over thinking this (I tend to do that a lot).


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R3alJim Shady

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I have a liter of nic that I bought a year ago this last September and it's still about 1/3 full. I'll be buying another one soon to prepare.

What REALLY chaps my ass about all this is that there are states LEGALIZING the wacky stuff (Washington, Colorado) and our much more harmless vape is the one singled out for regulation.

Makes it very obvious to me that this is about BT and government losing money rather than public safety, which is the reason that the FDA is putting out to the public for these regulations. Fuck the politicians, fuck BT, and fuck all the sheep that listen to either or both of them.


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Chaotic_Vapes

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I have a liter of nic that I bought a year ago this last September and it's still about 1/3 full. I'll be buying another one soon to prepare.

What REALLY chaps my ass about all this is that there are states LEGALIZING the wacky stuff (Washington, Colorado) and our much more harmless vape is the one singled out for regulation.

Makes it very obvious to me that this is about BT and government losing money rather than public safety, which is the reason that the FDA is putting out to the public for these regulations. Fuck the politicians, fuck BT, and fuck all the sheep that listen to either or both of them.


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Sheep sheep sheep. Unfortunately that's all America really knows to do.

Whenever I hear people talking about this the first thing that comes to mind is that one person we always see checking online to see what the new xyz health fad is. It's the blind followers of "health" that I think are being spoon fed the FDA's bullshit about vaping.


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SailCat

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I have a liter of nic that I bought a year ago this last September and it's still about 1/3 full. I'll be buying another one soon to prepare.

What REALLY chaps my ass about all this is that there are states LEGALIZING the wacky stuff (Washington, Colorado) and our much more harmless vape is the one singled out for regulation.

Hey, brother! Consider re-bottling that year-old nis into smaller containers with little headspace and do some cold storage for longer-term viability.

Regarding those 'wacky' states, forget not Oregon where we are bred of pioneers, not herd animals. Consider, too that this trend in legalization is fruit of a realization that a plant, once condemned as creating slaves to satan, debauchery and believing James Taylor's "Fire and Rain" should be played on a continuous loop, is actually innocuous and medically beneficial.

It would seem I'm treading on treacherous ground, here and subject to moderator condemnation, but please consider that these same statements may well be made about nicotine, which, in measured dose, is both calming and stimulating, improves concentration, has been shown to improve Parkinson's symptoms and is promising in other medical studies.

Except for the James Taylor thing. That's just silly.

How can we get the message across? Join one or more of those organizations continuing to shove the truth down gullets of reluctant lawmakers. It's a much better course that Franklin observed here:
 

R3alJim Shady

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Hey, brother! Consider re-bottling that year-old nis into smaller containers with little headspace and do some cold storage for longer-term viability.

Regarding those 'wacky' states, forget not Oregon where we are bred of pioneers, not herd animals. Consider, too that this trend in legalization is fruit of a realization that a plant, once condemned as creating slaves to satan, debauchery and believing James Taylor's "Fire and Rain" should be played on a continuous loop, is actually innocuous and medically beneficial.

It would seem I'm treading on treacherous ground, here and subject to moderator condemnation, but please consider that these same statements may well be made about nicotine, which, in measured dose, is both calming and stimulating, improves concentration, has been shown to improve Parkinson's symptoms and is promising in other medical studies.

Except for the James Taylor thing. That's just silly.

How can we get the message across? Join one or more of those organizations continuing to shove the truth down gullets of reluctant lawmakers. It's a much better course that Franklin observed here:

The ironic part of the legalization of that particular item is that it further proves my point in that it's all about money.

They legalized something that was vilified and generally thought to be "bad" and now are making heaps of cash off of it. Way to stand your moral ground, America (not commenting either way as to my own views, just highlighting the hypocrisy).


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PuffPuffPass

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This ban talk is somewhat new to me.
What exactly is their argument as to why these things should be banned/regulated?

Certainly they (.gov) aren't blatantly arguing that they aren't making enough money off of it as we all know is the real reason for these types of things.

Current taxes in the U.S. range from $2 to $5.50 a pack. And it's even higher in other countries.

Are you still paying your fair share to the government?

This has nothing to do with safety. If it did, they would pass guidelines for the industry to follow. Issue license to juice makers. And bring some hefty fines for failing to follow the guidelines. The market would self regulate for the most part.

Your money is the primary safety concern. It's safe keeping by the government is paramount.
 

PuffPuffPass

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I have a liter of nic that I bought a year ago this last September and it's still about 1/3 full. I'll be buying another one soon to prepare.

What REALLY chaps my ass about all this is that there are states LEGALIZING the wacky stuff (Washington, Colorado) and our much more harmless vape is the one singled out for regulation.

Makes it very obvious to me that this is about BT and government losing money rather than public safety, which is the reason that the FDA is putting out to the public for these regulations. Fuck the politicians, fuck BT, and fuck all the sheep that listen to either or both of them.


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It may chap your ass. But the Fed is laughing all the way to the bank, as are the states.

Some of the product is taxed at 300% from grower to B&M. Then it's taxed again at the B&M.

The states are raking in millions of tax dollars, daily. And the Fed, they're just waiting for enough assets to be gained by the bigger vendors, too make it worthy of doing a statewide raid of the money makers. Free money!!

All seized under Federal drug laws, allowing them to spend it outside their budgets. Millions!!
 

Heabob

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Much the same as the many herbal/non-orthodox Cancer treatments that have been banned in the US.
Big Pharma can't patent "natural" remedies, and look at the money they would loose from the Chemo-Radiation treatments.
As always, just follow the money trail.
Bah, don't get me started:mad:.
 

PuffPuffPass

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Much the same as the many herbal/non-orthodox Cancer treatments that have been banned in the US.
Big Pharma can't patent "natural" remedies, and look at the money they would loose from the Chemo-Radiation treatments.
As always, just follow the money trail.
Bah, don't get me started:mad:.

I'm watching cancer treatments in 2 countries at the moment. And wondering why one person with the "best" available treatment died within 6 months. While another with minimal treatment, appears to be holding on just fine a year later.

Both had same form, in same location. The one that died, discovered it in early stages. The one that's still alive, was more advanced stage.
 

Time

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Every body here is basically saying nic this nic that right? We only need to worry about nic. Well I hate to break it to you but you're all SOL if the vaping devices we use can't be sold. I heard they want all e cigs equivalent to one on the market of 2007.

Correct me if I'm wrong but uh, no point to a bunch of vg juice if you have nothing to vape it in. And don't even let me get started on juice with more than 50% vg... I'm fairly sure nothing in 2007 can handle anything other than the shitty cigarette store juice...

But seriously, correct me if I'm wrong and I'm over thinking this (I tend to do that a lot).


Sent from my dos terminal.

Two things.

One, the basics of a vaping device is a battery, switch and coil. Toss in a 10th grade electronics class or a couple hours on the internet and you have a vaping device, however crude it may be.

Two, having read the "leaked document", if there is any truth to it, I don't think modest vape devices will be banned. It's pure speculation on my part but I lean towards the idea that there will be a de facto ban on higher power, sub ohm devices. I think the FDA will rely on the studies, despite their fallacies, that show high temps(effectively dry hits) increase carcinegens and the example of blown up batteries to not approve any higher power products for "safety". I have no idea what their cutoff wattage will be. But, it's just speculation on my part as is every one elses.
 

PuffPuffPass

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First sentence, first paragraph. Versus First sentence, Second paragraph

How we politely tell you to F off.

image.jpg
 

guyakaguy

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First sentence, first paragraph. Versus First sentence, Second paragraph

How we politely tell you to F off.

View attachment 32566

FDA: "We have a bunch of shit involving vaping/e-cigarettes/e-juice going on behind closed doors that nobody knows about, but us and the OMB.

We'd love to hear what you have to say. Regardless of what your opinion is, the OMB and ourselves will come to an arbitrary decision about the issue.

The end"

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PuffPuffPass

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Two things.

One, the basics of a vaping device is a battery, switch and coil. Toss in a 10th grade electronics class or a couple hours on the internet and you have a vaping device, however crude it may be.

Two, having read the "leaked document", if there is any truth to it, I don't think modest vape devices will be banned. It's pure speculation on my part but I lean towards the idea that there will be a de facto ban on higher power, sub ohm devices. I think the FDA will rely on the studies, despite their fallacies, that show high temps(effectively dry hits) increase carcinegens and the example of blown up batteries to not approve any higher power products for "safety". I have no idea what their cutoff wattage will be. But, it's just speculation on my part as is every one elses.

The FDA has always approved of piss poor delivery systems. Big pharma and BT both lobbying for less that effective methods. It puts money in their pocket continuously.

Failed attempt, after failed attempt.
 

Chaotic_Vapes

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I think some people are blowing this way out of proportion. I haven't seen much in the news but this:
http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/23/9605256/e-cig-fda-regulations-us-almost-here
and it's rather vague.
tanks and mods can and are used without nicotine.
The problem is that when they survey minors in high school the question given is, "Have you ever used an e cigarette?" not, "Have you used an e cigarette WITH nicotine?"

Because of the different wording they can then add the votes of minors who used one without nicotine to the rest of the stats to make it appear more minors are using nicotine. I don't support a bunch of 15 year olds cloud chasing however they (most of them at least) are not using nicotine. Because of that it stains the image. People (the mindless sheep who don't study anything before assuming) think vaping = nicotine, they also think that all cloud chasers are minors, thus they think minors are becoming addicted to nicotine because of cloud chasing.

So they want to classify e cigarettes as tobacco products. Perfectly sensible.



Then there was the carcinogenic study. This study basically showed that at lower ohms more carcinogens could be found in the vapor. I think they also tested higher watts and it got the same result of I'm not mistaken. Or maybe it was the other way around and only watts were tested, you could always look into it.

So best case scenario is they limit mods to a specific wattage as the highest and I don't think they can really do much about our ohms. Unless police will now be carrying an ohm reader with their breathalyzer haha.



They want to make ejuice register a list of ingredients. Perfectly reasonable.



They can't classify vg/pg/cotton/any other wick/resistance wire/flavorings/ect as tobacco products because they have legitimate things other than that. However people are worried about nicotine since a lot of us diy ejuice. There's a good chance they will inflate the prices.



The main reason they are doing this, if you ask most of us, is their loss of money from tobacco. Obviously, eventually regulations would have to be put in place and what not however they are only acting now because they are loosing cashflow.

They don't really care about the health concerns, hence more of us are angrier than needed. If they had a legitimate health concern then I wouldn't be mad, however they don't, they just want more damn money.



Basically. They might cripple our watts to 30, make us pay 30 bucks for 16 ml of nicotine, and make vaping in public (blowing clouds at least) not legal. I personally don't go blowing clouds down the road unless nobody is around. I normally just take small puffs off my mod in public.



Personally this will be a huge problem for me. I tried to quit smoking before with one of the little ego vaporizers and couldn't stay on it because the flavors normally tasted like shit and they broke so much. I would use that and smoke maybe 5 cigarettes a day. So I went back to smoking 100%. Then I decided to try again and this time I decided to get really into it as a hobbyist.

From the day I got my first mech mod I haven't touched a cigarette (going on 2.5 months now) since these things are satisfying. I not only get satisfaction from a very wide variety of flavors (that are actually good), but I also I get my nicotine and I get satisfaction from the clouds I chase.

If I can't cloud chase as a hobby then the whole vaping looses its fun and the simple bic and cancer stick look more appealing. If that makes any reasonable sense. Yea it's not the best view but it's mine not everybody's so I'd prefer to not get bashed.


Also correct me on the politics if I'm mistaken anybody.





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guyakaguy

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Member For 4 Years
I don't think that the FDA has the foresight or vision to attempt to impose regulations for wattage caps.

First of all, almost all mods being used, minus homemade mods and the "boutique" mods, are made somewhere in eastern Asia. The FDA can't stop Asian companies from making devices that put ou high wattages. They can stop them from being imported, BUT there is always a workaround. So many of the new reg-mods have their programming stored on updatable/upgradable flash memory. The mod gets imported with the FDA's "cap" in a functional program and then re-flashed with a higher wattage program that is either made by the company's programmers or by rooting modders.

There are just too many workarounds.

The FDA should focus on safety as the #1 concern. Safety in manufacturing, packaging, and in labeling.


Sent from my XT1058 using Tapatalk
 

HazyShades

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
I'm not sure who else noticed, but stevegmu's signature is revealing regarding his Czechoslovakian views on many subjects here at VU:

Agent for Nonconforming Truth and common Sense

In the US, we commonly abbreviate it ANTZ.
LOL...
Don't know if that's been addressed here yet..think so, but actually
Steve's sig, which at one point I shared a variant of is a reactionary
comment to accusations of being "ANTZ" only because rather than flow with
the paranoia fomented by Big Vapor and the lack of consideration exhibited by some vapers
one prefers to think for one self, look at where the money leads, and use consideration
with non vapers as far as where one vapes.

It is interesting that you'd consider Steve's views as Czech
considering that several things that are illegal here (US) are legal in the Czech Republic,
a freedom loving nation deadly opposed to communism, socialism, fascism,
or any totalitarian type of system like that which is rapidly taking over in the USA...

Czechoslovakia is no longer. It is the Czech Republic and no longer part of the non existing soviet union.
Beautiful country too..full of beautiful ladies.
 

Time

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
considering that several things that are illegal here (US) are legal in the Czech Republic,
a freedom loving nation deadly opposed to communism, socialism, fascism,
or any totalitarian type of system like that which is rapidly taking over in the USA...

Czechoslovakia is no longer. It is the Czech Republic and no longer part of the non existing soviet union.
Beautiful country too..full of beautiful ladies.

I have to disagree. If the Czech Republic was "freedom loving" they made a huge mistake in joining the EU. They are no longer sovereign.
 

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