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Clones vs. Authentics

Merrick92

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Just to point out,if the item hasn't been copyrighted, it's not counterfeit.
"coun·ter·feit
ˈkountərˌfit/
adjective
adjective: counterfeit

1.made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud."
If they are telling me its a clone, then its not counterfeit.
You making an assumption on my integrity. I hope to god you have never listened to nor watched nor read any copyrighted materials obtained illegally or you are throwing stones at your own glass house sir.
 

PondScum

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Just to point out, if the item hasn't been copyrighted, it's not counterfeit.
"coun·ter·feit
ˈkountərˌfit/
adjective
adjective: counterfeit

1.made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud."
If they are telling me its a clone, then its not counterfeit.
You making an assumption on my integrity. I hope to god you have never listened to nor watched nor read any copyrighted materials obtained illegally or you are throwing stones at your own glass house sir.

Well in the 2 mods I said I would not sell clones of, one I know for sure is copyrighted, the Zen has some open source design, from what I know about HOH is they are on their copyrighted paperwork. If you can by a clone you will be less likely to buy the real one, that defrauds the person who went out of their way to create something from scratch to sell. So even buying a clone does show some "lack of integrity" because let's face it, you are a fucking grown up and you know better. At least "I hope to god" you were taught better, and "god" wrote "Tho shall not steal", since you brought it up, I know you know better. Not that any post here was about you or your "integrity", but about how people feel about the clone question on a whole.
 

Artisan Vaping

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If you like clones, that's fine, just remember that every time you use a clone a piece of your soul dies.

Its been proven scientifically.

Also, you delegitimize the vaping industry. How's that? Well, one of the most repeated ANTZ arguments is the the e-Cig industry is the "Wild West". This is why the FDA wants to give control to BT, they know those guys well, understand them and how to reign them in.

By making and selling clones, the industry just perpetuates this illegitimate image. "If logos and names and copyrights can be stolen, who knows what's in the juice?" Can you hear the ANTZ echoing that sentiment?
 
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Thunderball

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When the only cola you drink is a Coca-Cola, the only jeans you will wear are levi"s and the only Tennis shoes you wear are made by Spaulding, only then will I say you have "non clone integrity"........the list goes non and on.

Henry Ford didnt invent the car, but he made a way to make it cheaper and faster so everyone could afford one. Bad, bad Henry !! Shame on you !!
 

Merrick92

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Dear Pondscum,
My response was to another posting,and for that I am sorry you thought I was directing my comment to you. And to your second point, fuck you, I paid for my mod i did not steal it. Done with this. Bye
 

Artisan Vaping

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Let me get this straight..... Although Ive bought an original Kayfun 3.0, 3.1 and 3.1ES, but Ive bought 6 more knock offs from fasttech ( that work better)..... Im going to hell ?

I never said that. I just said a PIECE of your soul dies. Could be a small piece, but a piece nonetheless.

As for you going to hell, well, that has nothing to do with using a clone. But yes, you are.
 

Thunderball

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I never said that. I just said a PIECE of your soul dies. Could be a small piece, but a piece nonetheless.

As for you going to hell, well, that has nothing to do with using a clone. But yes, you are.
Ha, ha......I love it.

I really dont give a shit.......just enjoy stirring the pot from time to time......:rolleyes:
 

Jcc2k

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Heck, I'm starting to think the clones are getting too expensive... Can we get some clones of the clones???

Would the "authentic clone" makers be pissed off if they get cloned???
 

moecat

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Heck, I'm starting to think the clones are getting too expensive... Can we get some clones of the clones???

Would the "authentic clone" makers be pissed off if they get cloned???

Things that make you go hmmmmmm....

THE-CLONES-OF-BRUCE-LEE1.jpg
 
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GargoyleK1

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This whole thread makes me ROFLMAO!!!!

Stupid discussion to have… You either have regular people… Or people trying to protect their own interests by belittling others..
 

tick22

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To each their own...


I am happy for you Absintheur, but i haven't the money or time to run down the real deal.
Clones work for me....
 

wally

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My father use to say Buy American your Job will depend on it! Well, we use to have industry but now most of it has gone due to lower prices from other countries so, the proof of what he was saying is just fact. I guess now we can work at taco bell or a warehouse that houses goods from other countries and buy cheap knock offs because that is all we can afford. Guess we should of listened to dear old dad because it is only getting worse. People here in usa spent time and money for attorneys and engineers to make a product right before it was passed to the customer. China builds something and then at YOUR EXPense listens to what you say about it to improve it if they decide to do so. Sometimes they just make another one little different hopeing you will buy it hopeing it works better. ether way it is at your expense so when it comes down to it you have just bought a lot of crap that you have to improve which if you had just bought a quality built one it would of been much cheaper. lol.
 

GargoyleK1

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I have to disagree Wally…

This is JMO by the way… But I have worked in the auto industry for a LONG time… And we build shit… We "used" to build some pretty awesome stuff.. Then attorneys got involved and everyone is "afraid" to be cutting edge.. So we let the Asian market do it… And ya know what.. They are doing WAY better than we are aren't they? Wonder why that is… Hmmmm

Not like we can't do it… We just don't and they do.. I hate to say it but Americans have for the most part turned into a bunch of pansy ass's. They gotta get paid 15 bucks an hour to flip a friggen burger… 50 bucks an hour to push a button.. Then their fat asses sit around stuffing their faces with shit food and drinks complaining about how their mommy didn't love them..

Gee… Wonder why China is doing it better… Actually the ONLY thing we do good is bomb shit and blow shit up… We got that… For now...
 

WiSilverVape

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Tempers flaring ----------- check
Insults flying ----------------check
Silly Argument -------------check

Yes, it's that time................................it's time for.........................DRAMA POPCORN Yay!!!!! :D

Just because I'm not currently slotted to go blow shit up as of yet............that privilege does come at a cost - people try to kill me, but man I love blowing shit up. :eek: :rolleyes:
 

wally

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I have to disagree Wally…

This is JMO by the way… But I have worked in the auto industry for a LONG time… And we build shit… We "used" to build some pretty awesome stuff.. Then attorneys got involved and everyone is "afraid" to be cutting edge.. So we let the Asian market do it… And ya know what.. They are doing WAY better than we are aren't they? Wonder why that is… Hmmmm

Not like we can't do it… We just don't and they do.. I hate to say it but Americans have for the most part turned into a bunch of pansy ass's. They gotta get paid 15 bucks an hour to flip a friggen burger… 50 bucks an hour to push a button.. Then their fat asses sit around stuffing their faces with shit food and drinks complaining about how their mommy didn't love them..

Gee… Wonder why China is doing it better… Actually the ONLY thing we do good is bomb shit and blow shit up… We got that… For now...[/

Ahh are you referring we use to?? Me referring to my dad saying what he said points to the way it use to be so you just agreed with me. All this did not happen to us over night we had quality, attorneys you could trust and patents that lasted 17 years and no federal government slowing progress with silly rules.
 

Alan Woltemath

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i personally have clones cause they are easy to come across. If the original manufacturers made more originals to go around then i wouldn't have to buy the clone. The mods i would like to have, everyone else apparently wants as well so you can never find them.
 

PondScum

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If we as consumers want and buy Authentic mods made in the USA, that strengthens the position that vaping is here to stay and that real AMERICANS count on the manufacturing jobs that are created by the vaping community at large. I buy clones to see how they work ect, but Im done with them in week or less then sell it cheap or even give them away. My everyday vape is Authentic USA all day.
 

Roger Schaeffer

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I saw a article this a picture of a real live cloned penguin. If its legal/OK to clone penguins then cloned Vape gear is OK in my world.
 

Nu2Mods

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Analogy: The company I work for made the first nylon that went into carpets in the early 70's. This carpet component outperformed all other carpets components before ours. However, we sold our product at a higher price because our manufacturing processes were expensive.

Along comes Dupont in the late 70's. They produced a new nylon that was just as good as ours, but developed a manufacturing process that was inexpensive, thus they were able to sell the product less than we could. WE both still sold to rug companies, but we just had different methods or ingredients to our core component. Thus price became an issue with our "consumers".

Did my company yell and curse because they "cloned" our nylon? Did we feel a special need or niche because we had the first "authentic" nylon?. Did we feel we could be justified in continuing to charge relatively high prices for our product by going after Dupont with a "cease and desist"?

No. Times were changing and the market place began producing products that were cheaper, faster, stronger, lighter, etc. You either had to change and retool/rethink or you were out of the consumer picture. Consider the same thing with mods... It's beautiful to be the first "authentic" device, but sooner or later, someone will produce the same thing cheaper, faster...well, you know what I mean. You have to be able to change with the times OR continue to innovate the process or the construction to stay ahead of the game. First-outs always means high price, but soon that will fall as more manufacturers jump on the "latest thing" bandwagon.

For me, I'm kinda on both sides...I can't agree with someone cloning a device all the way down to the trademarks and logos, but identifying the device as "Nemesis STYLE Mod" or "in the STYLE of" verbiage would still give cudos to the original while stating that the device is NOT an authentic.

Now, an added definition to "counterfeit"...if you produce a fake product, "Clone" if you will, then try to pass it off as an AUTHENTIC, along with claimed values, then you have a counterfeit. Think of counterfeiting money or jewelry or paintings...what they all have in common is they claim to be original and charge the high prices due the originals. However, reproducing an original and calling it a copy, or clone, then charging a fair value for the copy would be where we are today.

Now when we get into copyrights or trademarks, there is a whole different ballgame and I think the industry would become more restrictive if everyone sued each other over "rights" and the consumer would lose out in the end.

FWIW
 

Cavediver

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Super-T's are doing things right authentic price wise.

http://www.supertmanufacturing.com/workhorse.html


Yup. I really wish I had found these when I first bought into 186xx mods. I bought clones because a plain, durable mod was impossible to find. I really dislike all of the added engraving and machining most mods have; I prefer simple, clean lines with a minimum of decoration.

I only own two store-bought mods, but if I decide it's time to get another, the Super-T simplicity or the workhorse will be high on my list.
 
I'm quite happy with both as long as its a good quality product

that is pretty much the main argument. everyone of my fellow vaper friends definitely buy for quality purposes. I've seen a lot of clone owners and unfortunately most of them run through problems sooner or later. However, that is not to say authentic hardware doesnt have problems BUT from what I've seen the problems they run to are different. Less on the wear and tear problems with authentics.

As far as the bragging rights...not gonna lie - sure its in there. Personally I've taken vaping as a hobby and I do collect. Just like anyone else who collects, (shoes, bags, guns, etc) best believe those people are spending money on whatever it is they collect.

Another thing is that vaping - especially when you are more advanced, is not something I believe one just jump into. User error is not kind with these devices so I kinda see the price as a way to not have too many kinds, especially under 18 getting involved. In my honest, humble opinion.

#firstpost =]
 

stewpickles

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id honestly say its a huge toss up. ive seen kids with the shittiest rinky dink clones that fall apart and parts constantly get loose and whatnot. but the shop near me somehow gets their hands on some excellent quality clones. i have 2 identical mods. the mcv panzer and the clone equivalent. the only difference in design is that the authentic is a 1 piece tube and the clone is a 2 piece. ive had 10 times the problems with the authentic than ive had with the clone. the clone has a better firing button which is 2 opposing magnets while the authentic has a shitty squeaky spring. both have had their lock rings get stuck (the reverse threaded ring on a normally threaded bottom piece is just retarded) but the clone is much more resilient when it comes to getting it unstuck without damaging it. for me i honestly have only had good experiences with clones. but ive seen so many people get such terrible clones. so like i said i guess its a real toss up.
 

BlackRibbonMist

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Yeah I think bragging rights has some to do with it. This would be the perfect example.

$1500 and sold out in minutes

element-mods-BT-5th-Blog-0010-430x244.jpg
Wow! Too rich for my blood. I have lower end authentics and wanted to break into the conversation regarding clones and wanting to get into DIY. I was wondering where you can support the community and buy local quality clones? I have to get into the know as I am new to the vaping community! I just took suggestions from the communities for 1st time setups now I just need more input which you guys wonderful! Thank you!
 

pjerzy

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I've had great clone experience with tobeco. Both my girlfriend and I have a plume veil clone from them. It's amazing. So good that I can't see a reason to get an authenic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

martinelias

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Clones suck ass. Its the chinese ripping off idea and cheapo consumers buying into it. Its not just bragging rights its consumer integrity cause i can say i respect the ideas of designers and manufacturers who created some dope shit not some garage in china for copying some shit with subpar equipment and working conditions.
Its the same reason i like purebreds and not mutts and same reason i dont buy imitation clothing.
Im not rich its called saving. You cant say you cant afford it if you have a wall full of cheap clones. Just say youre cheap and have no respect for creators.. Its ok. Plus honesty rules.
 

Haadkoe

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I want a veritas. I can get an authentic locally for $120, plus tax. So about $140 out the door. It would be authentic, and I'd have it immediately.

I can order a clone online for less than $15. Less than $25 shipped. It would be a clone, and I'd have to wait to get it, but it would be upwards of 600% cheaper than the authentic.

I really want to buy the authentic for all of the reasons which people generally choose authentics, plus the fact that I can have it right now, but I'm worried that I'm going to end up feeling like a complete retard for spending $140 on something when I can get a decidedly similar item for $25. The only way I'd be able to justify it to myself is if there was a marked difference in build quality, materials, finishing, durability, etc, (which I may never know unless I buy both)... And god help me if the authentic is deficient in any way. If it strips or melts or rattles, or whatever, I'm really gonna regret splurging on the real deal.

Worst of all, I want this atty for it's leak resistance and flavor, because I plan for it to be my adv. I work in construction, and my daytime mod has taken a beating. 600% more for the authentic, just to scratch it to shit from day to day use and abuse over time. Then again, maybe my user experience would be better with the authentic than the clone. 600% better though? Fuck.

Idk, maybe I'll just say fuck it and buy both. I've pissed away more on less over the years, but I'm not exactly rolling in dough either.

Decisions decisions decisions
 

Slurp812

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I have some of both. No exotic originals tho. I have a Kanger subtank mini, and a smok Xpro m50 (with upgraded firmware 65 watts). And a DNA 30 clone mod with an ehpro kayfun clone. Love all of it.
 

Drone

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Clones suck ass. Its the chinese ripping off idea and cheapo consumers buying into it. Its not just bragging rights its consumer integrity cause i can say i respect the ideas of designers and manufacturers who created some dope shit not some garage in china for copying some shit with subpar equipment and working conditions.
Its the same reason i like purebreds and not mutts and same reason i dont buy imitation clothing.
Im not rich its called saving. You cant say you cant afford it if you have a wall full of cheap clones. Just say youre cheap and have no respect for creators.. Its ok. Plus honesty rules.

Wow...what a prick Matinelias! So a clone is the same as a mutt and not a purebred dog. Did you really say that?? So a loving dog that had no choice in it's parentage is like a clone mod?? You got issues bro and I don't know where to even begin. I'm thinking 4 to 5 years of serious therapy might do you a lot of good. You might want to check your insurance coverage to see if it covers therapy.
 

GrayVaper

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Ok, I'll say this and piss someone off. When I decided to try a mech mod I bought a clone copper Panzer. Since the Panzer is a Phillipine company, I really didn't give a rat's ass about whether or not it was a clone. But instead of putting my American money in Fast Tech's pockets, I bought my clone from an American vape shop that tweaked a copper Panzer design with a couple of upgrades and had it made for them exclusively as a "Red Pheonix Copper Panzer" with no reference to the Phillipines anywhere on it. So, in an abstract way, since the upgrades were American, I felt I was buying American (At least that's how I justified it).
I just purchased an authentic SMPL mod and have an authentic Derringer on order to go with it. I could have saved a bundle with clones but these are American products that American jobs rely on. To buy a Chinese clone that arrogantly states "Made in USA" was sacreligious to me!
 

Spike64

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I never said that. I just said a PIECE of your soul dies. Could be a small piece, but a piece nonetheless.

As for you going to hell, well, that has nothing to do with using a clone. But yes, you are.

Anyone hear anything lately from this upstanding pillar of the "buy authentic of lose a piece of your soul" community? Seems like those that bought his authentic mods lost their money as well as a little piece of their soul....;)
 

pulsevape

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this arguements been going on since the rsst cloned the AC-9......I've sat on both sides of the fence at one time or another...who cares....
anybody that wants to buy an authentic is not going to settle for a clone.Most people who vape clones aren't gonna pay a modder 180.00 for an atty.If the modders produced more authentics instead of 200 at a batch and then only three batches then more people would buy an authentic.....try and buy a nextgen...try and buy a in'ax ..or a hellfire....it's near impossible. who needs the headache of waitng for the nextbatch or if there will be a next batch....
I admire Doc Dave he says f**k the clones,but he also gets his attys out to the public to buy so I have had no problem buying from him, but alot of modders dole out their stuff by the ounce....they are fools to think people are going to sit around and wait for the chance to give them money.There are alot of people that would have no problem supporting the modders..if they just got the work out ....I don't own a ton of gear,I buy only what I think looks to be exceptional, when I can get an authentic I do,but I'm not going to wait around forever to try a design.
 

pulsevape

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Clones suck ass. Its the chinese ripping off idea and cheapo consumers buying into it. Its not just bragging rights its consumer integrity cause i can say i respect the ideas of designers and manufacturers who created some dope shit not some garage in china for copying some shit with subpar equipment and working conditions.
Its the same reason i like purebreds and not mutts and same reason i dont buy imitation clothing.
Im not rich its called saving. You cant say you cant afford it if you have a wall full of cheap clones. Just say youre cheap and have no respect for creators.. Its ok. Plus honesty rules.
purebreed are generally inbreed have lousy genes,and are less hardy than mutts.they have more health problems and are usually dumb as rocks from inbreeding.....there are some well built clones being made..China got smarter.The modders haven't.The modders are creating a cartel for vainity buyers....with the exception of a handfull of modders, most modders don't want to make a bunch of attys at an affordable price or reasonable price,they want to make a small batch that they can sell for a high price.I also respect and would like to support the original modder but when he only makes 1000 or 800 attys then I can't....cause I can't find one....you pay 180.00 for an atty and 6 months later you can't find any replacement parts for it because they are not being made anymore.
 

martinelias

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Wow...what a prick Matinelias! So a clone is the same as a mutt and not a purebred dog. Did you really say that?? So a loving dog that had no choice in it's parentage is like a clone mod?? You got issues bro and I don't know where to even begin. I'm thinking 4 to 5 years of serious therapy might do you a lot of good. You might want to check your insurance coverage to see if it covers therapy.
The mutt is not to blame, irresponsible subpar breeders and puppy mills are to blame plus the idiots that buy them, further encouraging this process, are even more so to blame.
cutting corners buying shit to have a collection of shit on your wall just to save a buck further encourages the vendor scum to take authentics to the other side for cheap duplication. Read up on outsourcing and the direct effects it has on the economy before you try to lecture me with whatever shit banter you just spewed out your cornhole.
 

martinelias

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purebreed are generally inbreed have lousy genes,and are less hardy than mutts.they have more health problems and are usually dumb as rocks from inbreeding.....there are some well built clones being made..China got smarter.The modders haven't.The modders are creating a cartel for vainity buyers....with the exception of a handfull of modders, most modders don't want to make a bunch of attys at an affordable price or reasonable price,they want to make a small batch that they can sell for a high price.I also respect and would like to support the original modder but when he only makes 1000 or 800 attys then I can't....cause I can't find one....you pay 180.00 for an atty and 6 months later you can't find any replacement parts for it because they are not being made anymore.
I get that, its one thing to gather ideas to make some shit, like the doge x, thats cool. Its another to copy every detail and in some cases down to the engraving.
 

martinelias

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In the end what i said was my opinion for those who can take it cool for those who cant who cares im not an authority and im not god im just a dude that thinks the way i think so theres no need to get emotional.
i love puppies.
 

pulsevape

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The mutt is not to blame, irresponsible subpar breeders and puppy mills are to blame plus the idiots that buy them, further encouraging this process, are even more so to blame.
cutting corners buying shit to have a collection of shit on your wall just to save a buck further encourages the vendor scum to take authentics to the other side for cheap duplication. Read up on outsourcing and the direct effects it has on the economy before you try to lecture me with whatever shit banter you just spewed out your cornhole.
since when does shit come out of cornhole....
 
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pulsevape

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In the end what i said was my opinion for those who can take it cool for those who cant who cares im not an authority and im not god im just a dude that thinks the way i think so theres no need to get emotional.
i love puppies.
I'm God
 
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dingo1799

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i dont know, and dont care about puppy mills, shit throwing, and all that crap. when i decide to buy a new piece of equipment, i try to research it as much as possible and make sure what i'm envisioning is what i want. if im still not sure, i'll buy a clone of it to test it out. so far, ive managed to find used clones of everything i've looked for. once im sure that i want it, i'll go buy an authentic. some new, some used. i dont mind spending the money on vaping gear, but i'll be goddamned if im going to spend $100 on say, a russian 91% and find out the fucking thing leaks all over the place unless you jam enough cotton into it to stop a overflowing toilet.

i've found that some "clones" are better than the real thing... some arent. i have a 4nine clone that i've been using a week or so now with a clone derringer. with the 4nine, last night the magnet came out of the battery plate, had to dimple the copper washer that the battery sits on and press the magnet back in, and the washer/delrin that sits on the battery is threaded, had to mash those threads because it kept unscrewing, its a wonder it didnt autofire on me the 4-5 times it came unscrewed. the derringer has to have the center section forced back into place while turning because the o-ring groove wasnt machined deep enough to allow the oring to fully seat. now that i know i like both, i'll be searching the forums, etc etc for pre owned, and keep an eye out for either on sale. as stated before, most clones/knock offs are cheap chineez garbage, but they work for me for giving stuff a whirl before i put down my money on the real thing.
 

martinelias

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just a dude that goes around insulting people that don't see things the way you do...aw shucks what a humble soul.
I didnt mean to insult you, get over it.
 

martinelias

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I can see the whole test drive the fake before investing, makes sense too. God knows i got some stuff layin around i wish i hadnt invested on big n small.
This, like everything else in the world, is one of those dif strokes for dif folks situation.
 

pulsevape

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i dont know, and dont care about puppy mills, shit throwing, and all that crap. when i decide to buy a new piece of equipment, i try to research it as much as possible and make sure what i'm envisioning is what i want. if im still not sure, i'll buy a clone of it to test it out. so far, ive managed to find used clones of everything i've looked for. once im sure that i want it, i'll go buy an authentic. some new, some used. i dont mind spending the money on vaping gear, but i'll be goddamned if im going to spend $100 on say, a russian 91% and find out the fucking thing leaks all over the place unless you jam enough cotton into it to stop a overflowing toilet.

i've found that some "clones" are better than the real thing... some arent. i have a 4nine clone that i've been using a week or so now with a clone derringer. with the 4nine, last night the magnet came out of the battery plate, had to dimple the copper washer that the battery sits on and press the magnet back in, and the washer/delrin that sits on the battery is threaded, had to mash those threads because it kept unscrewing, its a wonder it didnt autofire on me the 4-5 times it came unscrewed. the derringer has to have the center section forced back into place while turning because the o-ring groove wasnt machined deep enough to allow the oring to fully seat. now that i know i like both, i'll be searching the forums, etc etc for pre owned, and keep an eye out for either on sale. as stated before, most clones/knock offs are cheap chineez garbage, but they work for me for giving stuff a whirl before i put down my money on the real thing.

I hear you...I'm done chasing unicorns....I don't collect....I have a pretty good sense of whether or not an atty is any good and I know people and reviewers I trust....I don't buy a clone very often,but when I do it's to test out an atty I want to buy....unfortunatelu most of the attys I'm intrested in don't get cloned. For instnace I got a Sat22 clone and I'm glad I did because I really didn't care for the vape,and would have felt bad if I'd bought it.I mean the classises are full of guys trying to unload some unicorn they can't stand vaping.and they do it over and over again.
 
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