Russ Wishtart of Click Bang Radio is paying out of his own pocket to get Suicide Bunny juice tested

[Jonathan Tittle]

Well, what do you propose? Required transparency, with lab tests?

Now call me a cynic, but I think that gets us to the exact same problem with replacement chemicals as any blacklist regulation would. Makers are going to know they will sell more if they can say "Free of W, X, Y Z"... but what about the ΦΧΨΩ they (or their flavouring suppliers) replace them with? If instead of asking for certain chemicals to be removed, we simply ask for their disclosure, then we end up at the same place. After all, why would we ask, if we weren't concerned about their presence?

I'm 100% for being transparent. I feel that honesty is the best policy, whether you want to hear it or not. Call me old fashioned. I don't feel that lab tests should be required unless a manufacturer is claiming 100% free of a single or group of chemicals. If you claim Diacetyl free, you had better have proof to show it and you had better be using testing methods that can detect small amounts. The same for any other chemical. If you're not, you have a legal obligation to remove that label and to put up a disclaimer stating that it's possible that the e-liquids you sell to the public may contain [insert chemical(s)]. Otherwise it's false advertising and you should be help to the same legal action as any other company that makes false claims.

Is the disclaimer a cop out? No, it's better than what most vendors are displaying (which is nothing at all). If you are one of the few testing, you should be PROUD to display it and those reports, if valid, should be easily accessible, not hidden deep within your site. I'd even say that having test results warrants a new section on your website labeled (something to the effect of) Lab Reports, Test Results etc.

If you don't test, having a disclaimer is legal and most lawyers will require you to display one, more so for an industry where you're inhaling any sort of product. It's common sense and IMO, not an option unless you have the means of proving otherwise. Even with test results, a disclaimer covering you in the event the lab was wrong (even though their insurance should cover that - better safe than sorry).


That said, FlavourArt and The Flavour Apprentice have lab reports, so anyone using their flavoring has NO excuse not to know if one of their flavors contains any of those chemicals. When it comes to Capella, it's widely known that they use Acetoin & Acetyl Propionyl in many of their original formulations. Their v2's, from what has been said, has Butyric Acid in place (common sense would tell someone that when one thing is replaced, another is put in it's place). Silver Cloud Estates has MSDS's that tell if these chemicals are present. The only companies that don't are those outside the US (with exception of FlavourArt and a few US companies, such as Fairies Finest) - specifically Hangsen and Inawera, and for those, it's back to the disclaimer or test out of pocket.

Having a disclaimer would be more welcomed to most than to see or hear nothing at all and we could avoid all this drama. Look at Suicide Bunny. I'm not calling them out, but if the owner had it to do all over again, I'm sure she'd of avoided this like the plague and either put up a disclaimer or tested the products in the first place so she could avoid the stress, which was probably amplified since they are a well-known vendor.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

I understand a disclaimer isn't a fix-all solution, but let's be honest, do we truly want the FDA to step in and regulate above and beyond what is already being proposed? It's bad enough they are wanting to classify e-liquid as a tobacco product. Be honest and really think hard, because saying yes is welcoming an organization to openly tell you what you can and can not do, even more so than is being done already.

Yes, they will regulate to an extent. It's unavoidable at this point. To what point, it's unknown and all opinions are just that, and also speculative. We can create threads non-stop every day and until they drop the hammer, it's more arguing, more speculation, more demands and more drama than we need in our already over-complicated industry. Instead of 30 new threads on this topic in the next month or two, we should be pushing vendors to be transparent. Put up a disclaimer or put up test results, it's that simple. Both are ideal, but at least one of the two would be sufficient. Saying that e-liquid A or B has chemical X or a combination of X, Y, Z doesn't tell others who they are using, so that's not a valid excuse - there's really not excuse.

As a vendor myself, I e-mail every flavor vendor I deal with. I ask if they have results, I order samples. I know what Diacetyl, Acetoin, Acetyl Propionyl and Butyric Acid taste like based on testing flavors with each of them independently within. Not knowing is laziness and the only exception to that would be flavors where it's hard to identify (i.e. it's a bit hard to identify in Strawberry Ripe from TFA - I would have never guessed it had Butyric Acid until I read it with my own eyes). So if I think it's there based on taste, I let customers know that it may be present. If I know it's there, I let customers know it's present. If I don't know or have yet to test, I let customers know that it may be present and that this e-liquid has not been tested yet. I don't see how that's hard, complicated or otherwise too much to ask. I'd rather say it's present and be wrong, than to say it's not and be wrong.

Transparency is what we need and that is something we, as a community, can do on our own. We don't need a third party to regulate common sense, or we shouldn't.

 

[Hermit]

Did I ever say I wanted external regulation? No. I just think it's inevitable. I'd be far happier with some internal, even informal, self-regulation or adoption of 'best practices' - for example transparency becoming universal. That could feasibly come about through purely capitalistic means, if more companies start seeing it as a selling point, and those that don't start making less money than those that do. I think we're some way off that yet! But anyway, on a large scale, even with just an expectation of disclosure, you'll likely get get the same result - replacements being substituted that could well be as harmful, just so vendors can say 'free of x,y,z'.

So transparency only goes so far, if it's only to be which chemicals from a defined list are in a juice/flavour. When a juice/flavour is (re)formulated to remove a listed chemical, vapers - and researchers - really need to know what replaced it, if we are to make our own judgement about it. But, oh no, 'trade secret'.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Did I ever say I wanted external regulation? No. I just think it's inevitable. I'd be far happier with some internal, even informal, self-regulation or adoption of 'best practices'. That could feasibly come about through purely capitalistic means, if more companies start seeing it as a selling point, and those that don't start making less money than those that do. I think we're some way off that yet! But anyway, on a large scale, even with just an expectation of disclosure, you'll likely get get the same result - replacements being substituted that could well be as harmful, just so vendors can say 'free of x,y,z'.

So transparency only goes so far, if it's only to be which chemicals from a defined list are in a juice/flavour. When a juice/flavour is (re)formulated to remove a listed chemical, vapers - and researchers - really need to know what replaced it, if we are to make our own judgement about it. But, oh no, 'trade secret'.

Not specifically you, though there are those that do and those that are essentially welcoming the FDA in . Unfortunately, the number of people I've ran in to that feel the deeming regulations are fine and that they should pass far exceeds any number I had in mind. Either they didn't read, or they know more than I do.

That said, a disclaimer is a start. It's not an end-all be-all solution, and it's not intended to be. Legally speaking, having one is a good idea either way. Legal Docs are part of Being in Business 101 and it's surprising to see how many have failed at that.

As for the flavors themselves, the majority are making the 4 in discussion known. Even Flavor West is producing some results and that shocked the hell out of me. It took them nearly a year to do it, but they finally started testing. The majority of the tests (for FW) are showing Acetoin as the only chemical present, which would explain the potential for Diacetyl (as per a report that was showing Diacetyl in their butterscotch flavor and was posted about the same time they originally told me they were going to start testing).

Beyond those 4, good luck. Even if someone did reverse engineer a flavor, it'd take time to break down each individual component and even more time to break down 1,000 flavors (low-scale estimate), not to mention how much it would cost unless someone is a chemist and has their own lab to minimize costs. Even then, publishing said results could be problematic. If a company could prove that an individual purposely reverse engineered and published their recipe, they'd most likely be sued.

If testing of a single flavor comes out to $150 a pop, I could only imagine the cost to find all chemicals present and detail their concentrations so that we can truly see if there's anything present that could potentially create an issue now or down the road.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Well, what do you propose? Required transparency, with lab tests?

Now call me a cynic, but I think that gets us to the exact same problem with replacement chemicals as any blacklist regulation would. Makers are going to know they will sell more if they can say "Free of W, X, Y Z"... but what about the ΦΧΨΩ they (or their flavouring suppliers) replace them with? If instead of asking for certain chemicals to be removed, we simply ask for their disclosure, then we end up at the same place. After all, why would we ask, if we weren't concerned about their presence?

There's always another option, vendors can work with a manufacturer to create their own line of flavoring. They will then have a final say in what goes in and what stays out. That's the only way I see this going and those who get to play with be those with deeper pockets. Beyond that, we're going to see substitutions happen. Some will be happy, some won't. Some will hail the new flavor as excellent, others will continue to look for an excuse to find yet another chemical that doesn't need to be present and we'll repeat the process over and over until we're back to the question "Why are you vaping anything flavored when vaping, in and of itself, is still new and there is an accepted level of risk...?" - beyond that, you were perfectly okay with inhaling thousands of chemicals before, you're now inhaling significantly less, by margins, and you're still not happy (not directed at anyone specific, just to note). There's never going to be a 100% sure-fire way of pleasing everyone.

I feel that overall, disclosure is better than nothing, which is what we're seeing a lot of right now. It shouldn't take a mob of angry customers and a podcast to make you want to either a). test your e-liquids or b). see if reports available so you can use them. If "b" isn't an option because you use a manufacturer who doesn't provide any results, "a" is your only option for disclosure. It's a more valid option, it's the better option, but if you don't want to test (for whatever reason) or if a manufacturer provides results and you can give a definite "yes" or "no" [this chemical] is or isn't present, that should work just as well. There's no reason to lie, hide or cover up facts. Put them out there, get it over with and be done with it.


That said, I guarantee that I could release a line of flavors tomorrow, show reports from a lab that prove that they are all free of Diacetyl, Acetoin, Acetyl Propionyl and Butyric Acid and someone would still ask if they are safe, 100% safe to vape, or something similar. That's the issue. There's no 100% safe to vape flavor, inhaling chemicals in general is not safe, but when you choose to do so, you choose to accept the risk that comes with it. We can pick these 4 today, a year from now there will be something else to add to the list.

 

[Hermit]

Oh, there could be no end of it... hopefully not though.

But I was commenting in both cases specifically about fairly direct replacements for diacetyl. (The same could apply to others that get identified as needing disclosure/removal, I suppose). The flavourist knows they're using a very similar chemical, to get a similar taste, yet if it's not on the list there's no compunction to disclose what it is or even that it's present....

"We have replaced diacetyl with butyric acid" -- honest and transparent.
"We have removed diacetyl" -- honest, but not transparent.

Which of those have you seen/heard more often?

I wasn't getting at reverse engineering flavours to any extent, that would be crazy. A general test for diketones might be practical though, to cover the case of diacetyl replacements. Diacetyl et al might just be the first family to be identified, but it is known to have caused very serious illness by inhalation, so not vaping it or anything closely related to it will be safer (by how much is a totally different debate).

We can only react to what gets identified, either by research, industry, or collective reports of minor symptoms from vapers - cough, shortness of breath, tight chest, etc - thankfully there doesn't appear to be much of that beyond people's individual allergies and intolerances.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

I completely agree with you on the fact that many are choosing to go with stating we've removed [chemical] instead of we've removed [chemical] and replaced it with [chemical2]. Capella falls in to this category right now. The only reason I know that Butyric Acid is being used in at least the v2 Vanilla Custard is due to a phone conversation about a vendor testing to make sure the other three were removed because they wanted lab confirmation. Given that it's in the v2 VC, it would only seem logical that all v2's are using it.

Unfortunately, I don't foresee Inawera or Hangsen publishing their data for us to see. As above, I was very surprised that Flavor West is even in the process of testing their flavors. It took them a year and numerous threads on the subject, as well as many nasty e-mails to get them to do it. They've not tested every single flavor, but many of the more popular ones have been (including Butterscotch). That said, it's only a listing, not actual lab data and the claim is that only Acetoin is present (which, again, is one reason why Diacetyl would be reported at certain levels since Acetoin can catalyze in to Diacetyl). They don't seen to be using Acetyl Propionyl at all.

As for reports of vapers and issues, I think we're a long ways off from seeing any potential issues from popping up, even with these chemicals being present. Couple that with the fact that to present data, they will first have to prove that the issues aren't a result of smoking and that it was indeed vaping that caused the issue. It'll be a while.

 

[Celtic Fog]

In a room of a hundred people, you will find a hundred different opinions. Vaping is a safer alternative to smoking, so make sure not to get divided over science that none of us are experts in, or we lose our freedoms and our options, we fall victim to the trap they have set for us. Stay Foggy!

 

[chris.ardito.3]

Half the wold hates what half the world does everyday. (RUSH). Just my 2c


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mommay]

I would like to see disclosure. Currently, 2 companies that I order from DO disclose. One of them does have Butyric Acid listed in 2 of their flavors (both fruit flavors). Knowing this, did not keep me from ordering their entire line. In all honesty, I was super-impressed after talking to them on the phone & them having put it out there on their website for transparency & full-disclosure. For me, It's about knowledge & choice.

 

[KKen]

I would like to see disclosure. Currently, 2 companies that I order from DO disclose. One of them does have Butyric Acid listed in 2 of their flavors (both fruit flavors). Knowing this, did not keep me from ordering their entire line. In all honesty, I was super-impressed after talking to them on the phone & them having put it out there on their website for transparency & full-disclosure. For me, It's about knowledge & choice.

Sadly, almost all the companies that I was a customer to that I contacted were evasive at best, and once I perceived this as the standard pattern, that was all I needed to decide that I was done with not only what used to be my favorite companies, but with flavorings altogether.

Its been a week now that I've only been vaping unlfavored VG & nicotine, and honestly, I dont miss all those tasty flavors at all. Feels like I broke another addiction without even trying, and now, I vape at least 60-70% less than what I was prior. I think that has to do mostly with not using my RDA anymore, but in any event, pretty happy and stoked to be where I am at now

 

[Cloudy Peak Vapes]

Sadly, almost all the companies that I was a customer to that I contacted were evasive at best, and once I perceived this as the standard pattern, that was all I needed to decide that I was done with not only what used to be my favorite companies, but with flavorings altogether.

Its been a week now that I've only been vaping unlfavored VG & nicotine, and honestly, I dont miss all those tasty flavors at all. Feels like I broke another addiction without even trying, and now, I vape at least 60-70% less than what I was prior. I think that has to do mostly with not using my RDA anymore, but in any event, pretty happy and stoked to be where I am at now

I'm gonna try some of this, does it have any taste?

 

[KKen]

I'm gonna try some of this, does it have any taste?

LOL, yeah, there is a "taste" with unflavored e-juice, but kind of hard to describe since we are so used to vaping all different kinds of flavors. I think the best analogy would be if you drank a 2 liter bottle of cherry coke or Mountain Dew every day, and now you decided to switch over to Pellegrino or Perrier.

Best advice I can give you is to order the unflavored VG from VelevetCloud at your desired nic strength and give it a try. You really dont have anything to lose since its only $25 for a 120ml bottle. If it turns out that you cant vape without flavors, you can always use it as a mixer to dilute your stonger tasting juices while retaining the same nicotine level.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

I'm gonna try some of this, does it have any taste?

To some it does, to others it doesn't. VG can have a slightly soapy taste to a slightly sweet taste depending on who you ask. Me, I get the soapy and sweet as my taste buds are sensitive and pick up a lot of what others can not (not always a good thing). I personally can't vape it and if that was truly all that was available, I'd be done with vaping as the flavors drew me in, originally, and that's what makes vaping enjoyable.

 

[KKen]

To some it does, to others it doesn't. VG can have a slightly soapy taste to a slightly sweet taste depending on who you ask. Me, I get the soapy and sweet as my taste buds are sensitive and pick up a lot of what others can not (not always a good thing). I personally can't vape it and if that was truly all that was available, I'd be done with vaping as the flavors drew me in, originally, and that's what makes vaping enjoyable.

I notice the soapy flavors occur with the "cheaper" VG brands, like what you get at walmart/cvs/Amazon, and the sweeter tastes preveleant with the higher grades.

I think thats the primary reason why some mass produced e-juices, like MBV, always has that soapy, musty aftertaste, at least thats what I perceived with thier "max vg" line. I noticed it less as the PG ratio increased, which is why I suspected thier VG to be of a poorer quality than other manufacturers.

 

[vapingunited]

BTW, if anyone is interested, and for someone like me not comfortable with mixing your own nicotine, a 120ml bottle is only $25 (500ml is $50) at VelvetCloud.com

If you really cant get away from flavoring, then you could grab a flavor vial made by a variety of different manufacturers from WizardLabs.com (about $1.50 each) I have no idea if these are free of all the chemicals in question, but I think much easier to get information on than from some guy mixing juices in the back room of a vape shop.

Personally, based on the lame responses I got from pretty much most of my favorite e-juice makers, I say to hell with them all.

Thanks for the link. I find this very interesting. Take a look at the disclaimer at the bottom of the description on this flavoring: http://wizardlabs.us/index.php?route=product/product&path=79_87&product_id=288

It's interesting that even the flavor manufacturers are adding the disclaimer now. The description states that the product contains no Diacetyl, but makes not claims about Acetyl Propionyl and/or Acetoin.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Thanks for the link. I find this very interesting. Take a look at the disclaimer at the bottom of the description on this flavoring: http://wizardlabs.us/index.php?route=product/product&path=79_87&product_id=288

It's interesting that even the flavor manufacturers are adding the disclaimer now. The description states that the product contains no Diacetyl, but makes not claims about Acetyl Propionyl and/or Acetoin.

WizardLabs has always had the statement that the flavorings (that they resell) do not contain Diacetyl, though the added warning about custard notes is new (to me) - it wasn't there a year ago, though the Diacetyl note was. That said, it's always best to go direct to the manufacturer, not the reseller unless the reseller is performing their own testing on individual flavors (unlikely).

TFA discloses which flavors contain Acetyl Propionyl, Acetoin and Butyric Acid. Their flavorings are, as confirmed by Linda, free of Diacetyl, though there's the potential for Acetoin to catalyze during the mixing process in to trace amounts. They couldn't add it unless they (TFA) added it as their manufacturer is restricted from having Diacetyl in their facility. I can't speak for LorAnn as they really snub their noses to vapers and tend to avoid the questions like the plague which is why, in turn, I avoid them (as, IMO, anyone should simple due to the food coloring used and the potential for oils to be present).

 

[EthelMaltol]

Jonathan, do you have a link thatlists all the flavorings from tfa that contain these custard notes? I have been trying to avoid them, but I think I may not have gotten the best list from one of their vendors. Thanks!

 

[KKen]

Thanks for the link. I find this very interesting. Take a look at the disclaimer at the bottom of the description on this flavoring: http://wizardlabs.us/index.php?route=product/product&path=79_87&product_id=288

It's interesting that even the flavor manufacturers are adding the disclaimer now. The description states that the product contains no Diacetyl, but makes not claims about Acetyl Propionyl and/or Acetoin.

There is also a disclaimer that states: This flavoring contains butter/custard notes which may not be safe for inhalation uses.

Again, like most of the other ejuice vendors I talked to, they all quickly say no Diacetyl, but leave out any mention of AP/A or BA.

My guess is that like cigarettes, there will eventually be warnings posted "not safe for inhalation, may cause (insert cause here) and just like cigarettes, it will be totally ignored by most users.

 

[vapingunited]

There is also a disclaimer that states: This flavoring contains butter/custard notes which may not be safe for inhalation uses.

Again, like most of the other ejuice vendors I talked to, they all quickly say no Diacetyl, but leave out any mention of AP/A or BA.

My guess is that like cigarettes, there will eventually be warnings posted "not safe for inhalation, may cause (insert cause here) and just like cigarettes, it will be totally ignored by most users.

Yep...that's the disclaimer I was talking about

Also noticed on the TFA flavors that they are referring to "custard" ingredients -- https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-7318-popcorn-flavor.aspx Looks like they are defining "custard" ingredients as Acetoin, Acetyl Propionyl, Diacetyl and Butyric Acid

 

[KKen]

 

[LoveVanilla]

Jonathan, do you have a link thatlists all the flavorings from tfa that contain these custard notes? I have been trying to avoid them, but I think I may not have gotten the best list from one of their vendors. Thanks!

Here's a list of TFA flavors that do not include custard notes. While this list is accurate (I believe), TFA has since added some flavors (not included in list) and posted a few additional test results (i.e. shown as untested). These can be checked individually if desired.

 

[EthelMaltol]

Thank you! Someone said that the ripe strawberry has butyric acid in it. This list doesn't show any testing for it. Also, someone else said that the bubblegun juicy was bad. I couldn't fifure out why, but I found a pdf that said not to inhale. I had been uing that one quite a bit.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Thank you! Someone said that the ripe strawberry has butyric acid in it. This list doesn't show any testing for it. Also, someone else said that the bubblegun juicy was bad. I couldn't fifure out why, but I found a pdf that said not to inhale. I had been uing that one quite a bit.

Strawberry Ripe does contain Butyric Acid though it's labeled as Butanoic acid. From PubChem, Butyric Acid can be labeled as: butanoic acid; n-Butyric acid; n-Butanoic acid; propylformic acid; Butanic acid; ethylacetic acid; 1-propanecarboxylic acid; 1-Butyric acid.

For a complete breakdown on their flavors, check the link below. You'll see MSDS, MSDS Full and List. List is what gives you a breakdown of what is in each flavor.


TFA Flavors w/ Acetoin:
http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx?cas=513-86-0

TFA Flavors w/ Acetyl Propionyl:
http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx?cas=600-14-6

TFA Flavors w/ Butyric Acid:
http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx?cas=107-92-6
&
http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx?cas=116-53-0


That should cover the majority. Some may not be there, but the vast majority are.

 

[LoveVanilla]

Thank you! Someone said that the ripe strawberry has butyric acid in it. This list doesn't show any testing for it. Also, someone else said that the bubblegun juicy was bad. I couldn't fifure out why, but I found a pdf that said not to inhale. I had been uing that one quite a bit.

I did not screen for butyric acid. Here is TFA's published list of ingredients by flavor, http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx It is an excellent tool/source for information -- and I commend TFA for making it available. Searching on CAS 107-92-6 (i.e. butyric acid) yields the following TFA flavors containing butyric acid.

PRODUCT
Cranberry Flavor
DK Tobacco Base Flavor
Dragonfruit Flavor
Kiwi (Double) Flavor
Nectarine Flavor
Peach Flavor
Strawberries and Cream Flavor
Strawberry (Ripe) Flavor
Strawberry Flavor

Note: sometimes a chemical can have multiple CAS #'s

I know some do not like the taste, are there some health concerns with butyric acid? Link?

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Eastman Chemical Company is local to me, being only 10-15 miles away and this is their MSDS on Butyric Acid (see attachment). Beyond that, the only study I've found is one in which both Diacetyl & Butyric Acid are tested to see if & how Butyric Acid inhibits its absorption.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18940962

So with that small study, it's possible for Butyric Acid to inhibit the absorption of Diacetyl to a degree. Not to a degree where Butyric Acid will completely prevent it's absorption, but will reduce it.

That said, it's naturally occurring like Diacetyl and occurs in milk, especially goat, sheep and buffalo milk, butter, Parmesan cheese, and as a product of anaerobic fermentation (including in the colon and as body odor). It can be an irritant and in high amounts, it smells rancid, and is the primary distinctive smell of vomit.

 

[EthelMaltol]

Ewwww, some people on this forum think some flavors smell like vomit. From how I understood it, they replaced the diacetyl with ap, then with the butyric acid. Nonre of them are supposed to be good. I will see if I can find any additional info on it, too.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Ewwww, some people on this forum think some flavors smell like vomit. From how I understood it, they replaced the diacetyl with ap, then with the butyric acid. Nonre of them are supposed to be good. I will see if I can find any additional info on it, too.

It's not the flavors, it's the chemical Butyric Acid that smells like vomit in its concentrated form. Other than flavors that I simply don't like, such as licorice, anise, cherry and similar, and they just smell & taste bad to me, no flavor I've had has ever smelled of vomit, not even those with the chemical present.

Licorice & Anise make me want to, but that's another story .

 

[BUDKISS]

Artemis,
So for those of us who dont understand these figures... other than YES they have bad stuff in them... what does this mean in layman's terms?
Parts per million/billion and threshold for supposed safety?

 

[Hermit]

Dr F calculated 65 ug per day for diacetyl and 130 ug per day for acetyl propionyl (or was it 60 and 135?) from the NIOSH workplace limits, so it would depend to some extent on how many ml you vape each day.

ug/ml is pretty close to ppm, give or take a bit.

But, yeah, some of those have a LOT!