CLOSED- Debate Invitation to ECF Troublemakers

[Surf Monkey]

To say "I don't know if a deity exists" is perfectly logical. To claim that one is "anti-theist" is to deny the truth claim made by a theist. In doing so, the atheist makes a truth claim that the theist is wrong, but that is not logically possible to know.

Wrong.

An atheist simply does not believe in the gods proposed thus far. For about the millionth time: atheism is not a belief system. The fact that you need it to be one in order for your argument to hold together indicates that your argument is BS.

BTW, that same illogical nature applies to the theist..... But I doubt any of them could care less....

Except that it doesn't since theism is a belief system and atheism isn't.

See, the play to cast atheism as just another form of faith is going nowhere because it isn't a faith. You can spit vitriol from here to eternity but atheism will never be a belief system. It's a rejection of blind faith.

 

[justincase]

To say "I don't know if a deity exists" is perfectly logical. To claim that one is "anti-theist" is to deny the truth claim made by a theist. In doing so, the atheist makes a truth claim that the theist is wrong, but that is not logically possible to know.

BTW, that same illogical nature applies to the theist..... But I doubt any of them could care less....

I think you are mixing up your words again.
An atheist does not believe in deities.
An antitheist is a person who believes religion does more harm than good.
An antitheist also does not believe in deities, but there is more there than just mere disbelief.

 

[Surf Monkey]

Disbelief in a deity is a truth claim (whether you like it or not).

No it isn't.

 

[Pipug]

Wrong.

An atheist simply does not believe in the gods proposed thus far. For about the millionth time: atheism is not a belief system. The fact that you need it to be one in order for your argument to hold together indicates that your argument is BS.



Except that it doesn't since theism is a belief system and atheism isn't.

See, the play to cast atheism as just another form of faith is going nowhere because it isn't a faith. You can spit vitriol from here to eternity but atheism will never be a belief system. It's a rejection of blind faith.

Now, this makes sense to me. It's laid out logically. Thank you, Sir.

 

[Surf Monkey]

I believe that anyone who labels him/her self as an atheist is being illogical.

That's my ONLY point, and the ONLY thing I have debated.

A point you lost long ago.

 

[pcrdude]

Wrong.

An atheist simply does not believe in the gods proposed thus far. For about the millionth time: atheism is not a belief system. The fact that you need it to be one in order for your argument to hold together indicates that your argument is BS.



Except that it doesn't since theism is a belief system and atheism isn't.

See, the play to cast atheism as just another form of faith is going nowhere because it isn't a faith. You can spit vitriol from here to eternity but atheism will never be a belief system. It's a rejection of blind faith.

But I already showed that it is. Using logic. I feel you don't like it, but that isn't really my problem.

 

[pcrdude]

A point you lost long ago.

Is that your only retort?

Sorry charlie!

 

[Surf Monkey]

True, I TRIED to make that point a few pages back. Unfortunately that is not the case in this thread- When it gets to poking fun at the belief itself, and degrading a deity coupled to the fact that most of the group showed up at the same time, and most are only here for this one thread the true motive becomes rather easy ascertain.

I'm sorry but I take serious issue with that comment. Your people called me out. I did not come here to attack your members. Your members have been attacking me for months with no pushback. The suggestion that a bunch of outsiders showed up here to "denigrate a deity" is complete nonsense. If you feel I've denigrated your deity please SHOW ME where I did that. Because I guarantee I haven't. Meanwhile I have been PERSONALLY denigrated countless times in this "discussion."

The "true motive" on display is the practically pathalogical obsession with trashing me that at least two people here seem afflicted with.

 

[justincase]

But I already showed that it is. Using logic. I feel you don't like it, but that isn't really my problem.

No. You really didn't.
You showed how desperate you are to fit non believers into your box of believers.
And failed miserably.

 

[Surf Monkey]

Is that your only retort?

Sorry charlie!

Evidently you haven't read any but that single post?

You lost this idiotic "debate" long ago. Because your premise is disingenuous and factually incorrect. Atheism is not a belief system.

You will now start calling me names again. Predictable.

 

[f1r3b1rd]

I'm sorry but I take serious issue with that comment. Your people called me out. I did not come here to attack your members. Your members have been attacking me for months with no pushback. The suggestion that a bunch of outsiders showed up here to "denigrate a deity" is complete nonsense. If you feel I've denigrated your deity please SHOW ME where I did that. Because I guarantee I haven't.

The "true motive" on display is the practically pathalogical obsession with trashing me that at least two people here seem afflicted with.

I believe I said GROUP, not specifically you. I don't know you, I don't care, you are not that important. so, as far as I'm concerned, put the ego away.
last time I looked 4 or 5 of you showed up at the same time specifically for this thread. I guess it got boring over there, so the GROUP of you needed to try mocking a new group of people for actually having a belief system.


evidently ecf needs to pass this around.

or maybe a game of chess, to give you all something to do.

it doesn't take a genius to come to the conclusion, when your little club all started in about the same time, and only here.

 

[pcrdude]

Evidently you haven't read any but that single post?

You lost this idiotic "debate" long ago. Because your premise is disingenuous and factually incorrect. Atheism is not a belief system.

You will now start calling me names again. Predictable.

You can think what you want, but you really can't justify being an atheist, and still leave open the possibility of a deity existing. For to deny the theist truth claim, is to make a truth claim.

Referring to one self as an atheist is to reject the truth claim of the theist. That, in and of itself is a truth claim (the theist is wrong). The agnostic would be logical to say "the answer isn't known, so we can neither reject nor affirm the claim".

The agnostic could be logical, and the atheist not.

Is that more clear?

 

[Surf Monkey]

I believe I said GROUP, not specifically you. I don't know you, I don't care, you are not that important. so, as far as I'm concerned, put the ego away.
last time I looked 4 or 5 of you showed up at the same time specifically for this thread. I guess it got boring over there, so the GROUP of you needed to try mocking a new group of people for actually having a belief system.


evidently ecf needs to pass this around.

or maybe a game of chess, to give you all something to do.

it doesn't take a genius to come to the conclusion, when your little club all started in about the same time, and only here.

Do you SEE the title of THIS thread??

The "little club" is made of members of this site who have been trashing me personally for a very long time. It just isn't possible for you to flip that on me unless you haven't actually read what's been posted here.

 

[Pipug]

I believe I said GROUP, not specifically you. I don't know you, I don't care, you are not that important. so, as far as I'm concerned, put the ego away.
last time I looked 4 or 5 of you showed up at the same time specifically for this thread. I guess it got boring over there, so the GROUP of you needed to try mocking a new group of people for actually having a belief system.


evidently ecf needs to pass this around.

or maybe a game of chess, to give you all something to do.

it doesn't take a genius to come to the conclusion, when your little club all started in about the same time, and only here.

I may have come in here around the same time as the others, but I don't appreciate being lumped in as a "little club". I came to enjoy your forum all over. This just happens to be a subject that interests me. And I don't believe I have attacked anybody. In fact, I don't think anyone has, with the exception of 2 of your older members. I enjoy discussions of all kinds. Also, enjoy the rest of your forum. I hang a bit in Whiskey's Corner and try to help in a few other areas, at the same time, I am learning about DIY.

 

[USMCotaku]

Because you changed 1 word's those tense making it a different word.Thus completely changing the sentence structure.
Example below.

I don't believe he gets it.
I believe he doesn't get it.

While they seem to say the same thing...They are completely different things all together.
Now do you get it?
You got it?
Good...Cheers!

I am fairly certain that was Justin's point....that those two sentences are indeed very different.

 

[Surf Monkey]

You can think what you want, but you really can't justify being an atheist, and still leave open the possibility of a deity existing. For to deny the theist truth claim, is to make a truth claim.

Referring to one self as an atheist is to reject the truth claim of the theist. That, in and of itself is a truth claim (the theist is wrong). The agnostic would be logical to say "the answer isn't known, so we can neither reject nor affirm the claim".

The agnostic could be logical, and the atheist not.

Is that more clear?

Clear enough to see that you're still hanging your whole argument on redefining my position.

Fail.

I'm an atheist. I do not believe in your God. Neither do I BELIEVE in the non-existence of your God. From where I sit the non-existence of your God is not a matter of faith. It's a matter of believers in said God being unable to offer any evidence, whether direct or otherwise to support it's existence.

But you can't have that. You need atheism to be a belief. It isn't, so your argument collapses.

 

[f1r3b1rd]

I may have come in here around the same time as the others, but I don't appreciate being lumped in as a "little club". I came to enjoy your forum all over. This just happens to be a subject that interests me. And I don't believe I have attacked anybody. In fact, I don't think anyone has, with the exception of 2 of your older members. I enjoy discussions of all kinds. Also, enjoy the rest of your forum. I hang a bit in Whiskey's Corner and try to help in a few other areas, at the same time, I am learning about DIY.

you don't post just in here, nor have you mocked a god or anyone that believes in one.
relax I'm not addressing you nor including you in club.

this disaster has been going on for about a week, and its still where it started.
its as pointless as tits on a bull

 

[Surf Monkey]

you don't post just in here, nor have you mocked a god or anyone that believes in one.
relax I'm not addressing you

I don't just post in here either and I have not mocked anyone's belief or anyone's God.

 

[USMCotaku]

Yep and forgiveness too.
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. - Matthew 18:21&18:22
Quick math = 490 times

So....screw me over 491 times, and you are DONE!

 

[Pipug]

you don't post just in here, nor have you mocked a god or anyone that believes in one.
relax I'm not addressing you nor including you in club.

this disaster has been going on for about a week, and its still where it started.
its as pointless as tits on a bull

Well, okay, then....carry on.....but I do think the thread title speaks for the thread, don't you? It just seems only recently that the opposing side decided to respond. I agree that nothing will be solved. It never is when it comes to religion or politics, imo, but, sometimes, we learn a little something along the way. At least, I do.

 

[f1r3b1rd]

I don't just post in here either and I have not mocked anyone's belief or anyone's God.

now that's almost insulting

you posted on someone's profile page in feb. of last year; and, not a single post until here; and only here.

correction - three posts about uwell but 98% here...

 

[pcrdude]

Clear enough to see that you're still hanging your whole argument on redefining my position.

Fail.

I'm an atheist. I do not believe in your God. Neither do I BELIEVE in the non-existence of your God. From where I sit the non-existence of your God is not a matter of faith. It's a matter of believers in said God being unable to offer any evidence, whether direct or otherwise to support it's existence.

But you can't have that. You need atheism to be a belief. It isn't, so your argument collapses.

Uh, no. That is a red herring. Your false-atheism is illogical. As all true atheism is.

 

[USMCotaku]

Name the other 2 for a chance to win an old snickers bar...BTW Snickers was a horse.

How can anyone forget Pestilence and Death????

 

[f1r3b1rd]

Well, okay, then....carry on.....but I do think the thread title speaks for the thread, don't you? It just seems only recently that the opposing side decided to respond. I agree that nothing will be solved. It never is when it comes to religion or politics, imo, but, sometimes, we learn a little something along the way. At least, I do.

if it weren't for 2 of the little clubhouse members comments specifically insulting my own belief and experiences, I would not be involved in this trainwreck. I would love to be able to actually get some work done.

 

[pcrdude]

now that's almost insulting
you posted on someone's profile page in feb. of last year; and, not a single post until here; and only here.

And Feb of last year is when I left ECF and joined here. And SM "liked" all my posts here on VU, went back to ECF and got praises and laughter from them for doing it. And never posted again until this thread.

So says Google-Fu.....

 

[USMCotaku]

I may have come in here around the same time as the others, but I don't appreciate being lumped in as a "little club". I came to enjoy your forum all over. This just happens to be a subject that interests me. And I don't believe I have attacked anybody. In fact, I don't think anyone has, with the exception of 2 of your older members. I enjoy discussions of all kinds. Also, enjoy the rest of your forum. I hang a bit in Whiskey's Corner and try to help in a few other areas, at the same time, I am learning about DIY.

I would like to see a member charter of this supposed "club"

 

[f1r3b1rd]

I would like to see a member charter of this supposed "club"

ask them, they mentioned it themselves last night.

 

[pulsevape]

I believe I said GROUP, not specifically you. I don't know you, I don't care, you are not that important. so, as far as I'm concerned, put the ego away.
last time I looked 4 or 5 of you showed up at the same time specifically for this thread. I guess it got boring over there, so the GROUP of you needed to try mocking a new group of people for actually having a belief system.


evidently ecf needs to pass this around.

or maybe a game of chess, to give you all something to do.

it doesn't take a genius to come to the conclusion, when your little club all started in about the same time, and only here.

I believe I said GROUP, not specifically you. I don't know you, I don't care, you are not that important. so, as far as I'm concerned, put the ego away.
last time I looked 4 or 5 of you showed up at the same time specifically for this thread. I guess it got boring over there, so the GROUP of you needed to try mocking a new group of people for actually having a belief system.


evidently ecf needs to pass this around.

or maybe a game of chess, to give you all something to do.

it doesn't take a genius to come to the conclusion, when your little club all started in about the same time, and only here.

No,no,no ...some bitches like the rough trade don't spoil their fun.I'm sure monkey and his ilk would refuse your kind offer.

 

[DC2]

Did you get chocked up?
There's your proof.

Psst... it's choked.

Sorry, had to do it.


And I believe that you will understand why I had to do it.
Or maybe I should say that I have "faith" that you will understand.

I'm satisfied with my conclusion that he had an NDE of some sort.

I'd say it's more likely that he was born again.

 

[Pipug]

I'd say it's more likely that he was born again.

Or, it could be one followed by the other....

 

[f1r3b1rd]

negative... I didn't find jesus in the sofa cushions, nor was I propelled from my mothers belly more than once.
the most I will say is clinically dead for 17minutes - and it has no bearing on this thread.

I don't preach, I don't even go to church services. I almost always keep my beliefs personal.
the only point i was making is that sometimes life puts you in a position of utter clarity. In my mind, after that, and the surrounding situation, we are more than an accidental assembly of pieces and parts.

 

[pulsevape]

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio

 

[DC2]

He said he DOESN'T believe.
How much faith does it require to not believe something?

If one makes a statement regarding whether or not they believe something that can not be proven...
Then it seems to me they are putting some degree of "faith" in that belief...

If they had no faith in their belief, they wouldn't say anything at all.
At least that would be how I am looking at it.
:shrug:

 

[DC2]

negative... I didn't find jesus in the sofa cushions, nor was I propelled from my mothers belly more than once.
the most I will say is clinically dead for 17minutes - and it has no bearing on this thread.

I don't preach, I don't even go to church services. I almost always keep my beliefs personal.
the only point i was making is that sometimes life puts you in a position of utter clarity. In my mind, after that, and the surrounding situation, we are more than an accidental assembly of pieces and parts.

Damn it, that's the first time I've been wrong in 13 years.
My wife is gonna be all over me for this.

 

[justincase]

I believe I said GROUP, not specifically you. I don't know you, I don't care, you are not that important. so, as far as I'm concerned, put the ego away.
last time I looked 4 or 5 of you showed up at the same time specifically for this thread. I guess it got boring over there, so the GROUP of you needed to try mocking a new group of people for actually having a belief system.


evidently ecf needs to pass this around.

or maybe a game of chess, to give you all something to do.

it doesn't take a genius to come to the conclusion, when your little club all started in about the same time, and only here.

Well, just glancing at the TITLE of this thread, I would say I am here by invitation.
I never tried to pretend otherwise.
In fact, my first post in this thread I stated specifically why I was here, and even brought cake.

If anyone from the 'group' did any 'bashing' that would have been me.
Admittedly, it would have been weak.
I've stated almost from the start that I am not just am atheist, but an antitheist.
I have difficulty discussing any religion without showing disdain.
But it should not matter to you how someone else feels about your faith.
Who cares if they think you are wrong?

Religion angers me.
I see it as nothing more than a tool for manipulation and control. Some magical sky man deciding whether or not someone should burn in a fiery hell for all of eternity for thought crimes.
And it's insulting to think folks can be 'redeemed' for doing wrong to others so long as they ask some invisible force for forgiveness, instead of the actual folks who they wronged.

I'm sorry that my opinions on the matter shake your faith. Perhaps there is something to that.

 

[ej1024]

I believe in God the father almighty creator of heaven and earth.....
FAITH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TygerTyger]

Anytime politics or religion/spirituality come up, there's gonna be problems. Not that we mind. A lively debate is healthy..... as long as it remains respectful, and on topic. However, if you feel your blood pressure rising, heart pounding, stress from anger, find yourself wanting to choke someone, or are distressed in any way by this thread, I highly recommend you click the little red x in the upper right corner, and go for a walk, meditate, do some yoga, or do something constructive. Centuries of history prove that none of you can win this debate, so be satisfied to state your position and leave it at that.

#justsayin #getalong #itsjustaforumfolks #dontmakememeanadmin

 

[justincase]

If one makes a statement regarding whether or not they believe something that can not be proven...
Then it seems to me they are putting some degree of "faith" in that belief...

If they had no faith in their belief, they wouldn't say anything at all.
At least that would be how I am looking at it.
:shrug:

So, how much faith do you have in the flying spaghetti monster?

 

[Whiskey]

 

[pulsevape]

View attachment 49239

Anytime politics or religion/spirituality come up, there's gonna be problems. Not that we mind. A lively debate is healthy..... as long as it remains respectful, and on topic. However, if you feel your blood pressure rising, heart pounding, stress from anger, find yourself wanting to choke someone, or are distressed in any way by this thread, I highly recommend you click the little red x in the upper right corner, and go for a walk, meditate, do some yoga, or do something constructive. Centuries of history prove that none of you can win this debate, so be satisfied to state your position and leave it at that.

#justsayin #getalong #itsjustaforumfolks #dontmakememeanadmin

View attachment 49240

you mean take your yoga mat and go to your safespace?

 

[TygerTyger]

you mean take your yoga mat and go to your safespace?

Whatever works for YOU (or whoever reads it LOL)

 

[pulsevape]

Religion angers me.
I see it as nothing more than a tool for manipulation and control. Some magical sky man deciding whether or not someone should burn in a fiery hell for all of eternity for thought crimes.
And it's insulting to think folks can be 'redeemed' for doing wrong to others so long as they ask some invisible force for forgiveness, instead of the actual folks who they wronged.

I think what you can't get pass is that the vast majority of people of faith don't see God that way...

 

[Whiskey]

 

[ej1024]

I agree
People need to learn how to speak English, basic English is ok, but don't fucking question ME, why I don't speak Spanish!!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TygerTyger]

 

[Whiskey]

 

[pulsevape]

 

[justincase]

I think what you can't get pass is that the vast majority of people of faith don't see God that way...

Perhaps what you can't get past is that if they were reading the bible without cherry picking, they would be offended too.
Kinda hard not to be.

 

[DC2]

So, how much faith do you have in the flying spaghetti monster?

My degree of faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster is zero.
And therefore what?

I'm not trying to be a douchebag.
I'm interested in where this is going and why.

 

[Huckleberried]

I'm interested in where this is going and why.

This whole thread, I've been asking this. Not the Spaghetti Monster, the thread. If a spaghetti monster jumped on my plate I wouldn't be hungry.