CLOSED- Debate Invitation to ECF Troublemakers

[justincase]

Very true. I just don't understand how someone else believes or doesn't affects another person, unless they're shoving it down their throat. I've been friends with a lot of forum peeps for years and never had a clue what religion they followed or didn't, and it won't affect me one way or the other. Same if they're gay, straight, short, fat, old, young... Doesn't change my life a bit and we can still get along for the most part. That's why this thread is such a mess, everyone taking someone else's life personally

The problem comes in, speaking just from the perspective of the States, is that there is a serious movement to enact laws that force non believers to be 'ruled' based on religious tenants.
In the US, everyone has a right to believe or not believe.
There's no problem there. But when religion tries to legislate based on the bible, some of us have a problem with that.
Same as the Torah, the Koran or any other holy book.
Same goes for religion trying to dictate what is taught in a science class.

Religion has no place in an institution for learning. Especially not one where my tax dollars are being spent.
In god we trust should be taken off the money.
It never should have been allowed to begin with, but it was the '50's....what can I say. Same goes for some pledge of allegiance to some god.
We're in the 21st century now.
There is no room for bronze age enlightenment in the modern age.

In a recent study, atheist were found to be more distrustful than a rapist.
Someone with violent, sexual tendencies is trusted more than someone who just 'doesn't believe'.
Let that sink in awhile.
Maybe you will begin to understand why some of us are hostile.

 

[snake94115]

This needs a song...Cheers!

 

[always9988]

The problem comes in, speaking just from the perspective of the States, is that there is a serious movement to enact laws that force non believers to be 'ruled' based on religious tenants.
In the US, everyone has a right to believe or not believe.
There's no problem there. But when religion tries to legislate based on the bible, some of us have a problem with that.
Same as the Torah, the Koran or any other holy book.
Same goes for religion trying to dictate what is taught in a science class.

Religion has no place in an institution for learning. Especially not one where my tax dollars are being spent.
In god we trust should be taken off the money.
It never should have been allowed to begin with, but it was the '50's....what can I say. Same goes for some pledge of allegiance to some god.
We're in the 21st century now.
There is no room for bronze age enlightenment in the modern age.

In a recent study, atheist were found to be more distrustful than a rapist.
Someone with violent, sexual tendencies is trusted more than someone who just 'doesn't believe'.
Let that sink in awhile.
Maybe you will begin to understand why some of us are hostile.

Honey I agree. The fact that all these laws are being based on majority religion pisses me off. Separation of church and state is just a sentence that means nothing.

On the other hand, most people in my life have no clue how I feel about religion. Because I don't bring it up. You can feel upset with an attack I have no trouble with that. But there is no need for personal attacks is all I'm trying to get at. The problem is we have 50+ pages of round and round and downright hateful mean bullshit and near as I can tell not a damn person has changed their minds. And does anyone feel better at the end of the day for it?

 

[pulsevape]

So, you mean the only way I should stay is if I tell you to fuck off? Is that how it works here? Was I being too nice for you? Sorry.

not at all. but your social yardstick about what is and is not apporpriate or what does or does not add or detract from the dialouge is .....bullshit. and since it seems to cause you undue stress I was merely pointing out how perhaps you'd be more comfortable going back to ECF where Classwife can censor every other post that offends the sensebilities of .......

 

[snake94115]

How many people here have ever said 'I don't believe __________'
Now ask yourself how different that statement is when you flip it around to 'I believe __________ doesn't'

Because you changed 1 word's those tense making it a different word.Thus completely changing the sentence structure.
Example below.

I don't believe he gets it.
I believe he doesn't get it.

While they seem to say the same thing...They are completely different things all together.
Now do you get it?
You got it?
Good...Cheers!

 

[justincase]

Well, I think the discussion made a wrong turn when actual atheists showed up and pointed out how wrong their position was being stated.
It didn't fit the 'plan of attack' that was pre-written.

Guess my earlier assessment was accurate.
It was an atheist bashing thread.

 

[snake94115]

Where is the god of tits and wine?

Whiskey is busy...Cheers!

 

[Pipug]

Because you changed 1 word's those tense making it a different word.Thus completely changing the sentence structure.
Example below.

I don't believe he gets it.
I believe he doesn't get it.

While they seem to say the same thing...They are completely different things all together.
Now do you get it?
You got it?
Good...Cheers!

Pretty sure you are both saying the same thing, no?

 

[snake94115]

What ever happened to those thunder gods?

My apologies I'l cut down on the vegan life-style and go back to eating Carne Asada Taco's by the truck load and the Thunder Gods will return.

 

[justincase]

Because you changed 1 word's those tense making it a different word.Thus completely changing the sentence structure.
Example below.

I don't believe he gets it.
I believe he doesn't get it.

While they seem to say the same thing...They are completely different things all together.
Now do you get it?
You got it?
Good...Cheers!

That was exactly my point.
They are completely different.

 

[snake94115]

Of course, this debate has been going on, and will continue for a long, long, time. As usual, SM appears to present a logical argument, but on closer inspection, it doesn't hold up. And here is why:

An existential claim (that of something existing) is a binary proposal. It either does, or it doesn't. Like being alive or dead, pregnant or not pregnant. A theist claims that a deity exists. They make no scientific claim about this (if they are smart), but rely on faith in the unprovable. A skeptic may say "I don't believe you unless you have proof". That's actually a good position (scientifically), and is consistent with the agnostic position. In this case, the theist makes what is known in philosophy as a "truth claim". The agnostic denies the truth claim is supported, and therefore withholds assent.

The atheist position, on the other hand is not the same as the agnostic's in this example. In this case, the atheist makes the truth claim that a deity does not exist (even if they don't admit it). Otherwise, they would be an agnostic. Remember that an existential claim is a binary proposal.

But it is illogical to reject a deity, then hedge that it might exist.

Where's a big rig when you need 1.

 

[Pipug]

not at all. but your social yardstick about what is and is not apporpriate or what does or does not add or detract from the dialouge is .....bullshit. and since it seems to cause you undue stress I was merely pointing out how perhaps you'd be more comfortable going back to ECF where Classwife can censor every other post that offends the sensebilities of .......

I feel no stress at all. Feel free to continue with your inane dialog. Doesn't appear to be too many people listening when you spew bullshit. Try talking like a grown up and you may get better responses. Is that a self portrait, by the way?

 

[pcrdude]

Please stop...Seriously.
carpe jugulum

I call it like I see it!

 

[snake94115]

There's no such thing as a soul.
All you got is an ego, which man calls a soul.
Unless......you got proof?

You want proof of a soul...Hmm lets see.
Alrighty.
Watch and listen to this.

Did you get chocked up?
There's your proof.

 

[pcrdude]

Where's a big rig when you need 1.

Then go for it!

 

[justincase]

You want proof of a soul...Hmm lets see.
Alrighty.
Watch and listen to this.

Did you get chocked up?
There's your proof.

Nope.
Didn't do anything for me.
Got anything else?

 

[Pipug]

You want proof of a soul...Hmm lets see.
Alrighty.
Watch and listen to this.

Did you get chocked up?
There's your proof.

I think his is hidden in his hair...

 

[always9988]

I think his is hidden in his hair...

Don't be jealous of that majestic hair

 

[jimbodaddy74]

Where's a big rig when you need 1.

 

[snake94115]

as Jesus said.
"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet."

.

Christ said lots of things including (Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.) - Matthew 10:34

 

[snake94115]

There's something in there though about having compassion, even for those that would turn you away.

Yep and forgiveness too.
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. - Matthew 18:21&18:22
Quick math = 490 times

 

[snake94115]

compassion is not sympathy....extending compassion includes the realization that this being is where it is at and that sometimes there is nothing you can do about that, it is not in your hands. we all get there in our own time and in our own way, and if they need to bang their head against the wall for a while so be it and that's OK

Compassion without sympathy or empathy seems pretty pointless to me at least.

 

[snake94115]

@pulsevape was referring to the other argumentative party in the debate. I think he's cool with you and your position.

Ditto on that line of thought.

 

[snake94115]

Your continuing problem here is thinking that atheism is a belief. That's incorrect.

That will be a T-Shirt by next week.

 

[justincase]

Christ said lots of things including (Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.) - Matthew 10:34

Honestly, we can't actually know what Jesus said because all we have is testimony from folks who never ever knew him. Compound that with the fact there isn't even any real evidence that he even existed at all.

Religion is a strange bird.
Take the Abrahamic religions, for example.
They all worship the same diety, yet they go about it completely different, and insist that their 'version' is the correct one.
Strange indeed!

 

[snake94115]

View attachment 49166
View attachment 49167

It's getting close to this below...Cheers!

 

[Douggro]

Yep and forgiveness too.
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. - Matthew 18:21&18:22

Forgiveness is a selfish/selfless act. If you do wrong to me, my forgiveness is for me to give up making you wrong for it. That, in turn, gives the clearing for me to treat you with love and compassion.

 

[snake94115]

I didn't call the atheist position dumb per se. I did say it was unscientific and illogical....

Quote from philosophy outside the box:

'it is a positive unbelief. The atheist is not sitting on the sidelines unengaged with the question of God–the atheist makes a positive assertion by actively refusing the proposition “God exists” which means they are just as actively committing to the proposition “God does not exist.” Their active unbelief logically and necessarily entails an active belief. If they claim the title “atheist” then they have no choice but to accept what that word means. They are taking a position and positions must be defended with reason and evidence. The burden of proof is on the one who makes an assertion, and the atheist does make an assertion in their active denial and disbelief. Denying such clear logic and evidence is the very definition of irrationality.

Any atheist who tries to avoid the fact that they are engaging in the active, positive belief in the proposition “God does not exist” should have to explain why they are running away from their own beliefs. '

Please stop quoiting sources and state what you actually believe...Simplify.Justify.

 

[snake94115]

I'll let you suss that one out on your own terms.

...as far as the Africa comment, it was in reference to a pic that was posted.

You mean the 1 of the sick beggar and the person walking past with a fuck ton of food and not stopping.Yeah that looked like it was in India too.

 

[Douggro]

Just because I do not believe does not automatically make me the bad guy here. I merely express my own thoughts on the subject and I try to do it respectfully. It is a 2 way street, if you allow it.

Yeah, I think you've acted in a civil manner thus far. Dunno' why there is hostility being directed towards you.

 

[pcrdude]

Please stop quoiting sources and state what you actually believe...Simplify.Justify.

I have.

Repeatedly.

Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

 

[Pipug]

I have.

Repeatedly.

Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

I honestly haven't seen you actually say what you DO believe and what you do NOT believe. Maybe you could repeat it again?

 

[pcrdude]

I honestly haven't seen you actually say what you DO believe and what you do NOT believe. Maybe you could repeat it again?

I believe that anyone who labels him/her self as an atheist is being illogical.

That's my ONLY point, and the ONLY thing I have debated.

 

[snake94115]

You are hilarious. You have "my" sense of humour and that's awesome.

Just thought I'd let you know.

Carry on...

Oh but the Red Horseman is War... Famine is the Black Horseman.

Name the other 2 for a chance to win an old snickers bar...BTW Snickers was a horse.

 

[snake94115]

If there is a god(s) they are most certainly NOT benevolent.

I never suggested they were

 

[Douggro]

Honestly, we can't actually know what Jesus said because all we have is testimony from folks who never ever knew him. Compound that with the fact there isn't even any real evidence that he even existed at all.

Flavius Josephus is about as close as we can get to a secular account of the existence of Jesus.

Religion is a strange bird.
Take the Abrahamic religions, for example.
They all worship the same deity, yet they go about it completely different, and insist that their 'version' is the correct one.

True, and then there are disagreements further down the line about which particular sectarian beliefs are "correct". Which is a great part in my personal dislike for sectarian religion.

 

[Douggro]

Name the other 2 for a chance to win an old snickers bar...BTW Snickers was a horse.

Pestilence is one.
Do I get half a Snickers?

 

[Pipug]

I believe that anyone who labels him/her self as an atheist is being illogical.

That's my ONLY point, and the ONLY thing I have debated.

Okay, why?

 

[snake94115]

On the contrary, I already demonstrated that referring to one self as an atheist, but allowing for the possibility of a deity is illogical. That demonstrates YOU don't know what the term means.

Actually somebody else said that first.You said something else completely different.
You've changed your argument multiple times.
Atheism = Disbelief in God...Period full stop.Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
You have said it means something else more times than I care to actually count.
You can't argue the flavor of a donut if there is no actual donut.

 

[snake94115]

I would prefer to not make an event that changed my life, fodder for a group of people looking to degrade someone for having a belief.

Private me then I'm actually quite curious.

 

[pcrdude]

Okay, why?

What part did you miss? Or, are you questioning why I am debating this?

 

[snake94115]

I'd buy it for a quarter.I seem to have mislaid my dignity years ago.

 

[Douggro]

Private me then I'm actually quite curious.

I'm satisfied with my conclusion that he had an NDE of some sort.

 

[pcrdude]

Actually somebody else said that first.You said something else completely different.
You've changed your argument multiple times.
Atheism = Disbelief in God...Period full stop.Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
You have said it means something else more times than I care to actually count.
You can't argue the flavor of a donut if there is no actual donut.

Disbelief in a deity is a truth claim (whether you like it or not).

 

[snake94115]

Well, I am enjoying exploring the entire forum. Lots of great people here. Friendly and helpful. Glad I joined!

Glad to have you.
Er...You know what I mean.

 

[Pipug]

What part did you miss? Or, are you questioning why I am debating this?

No, why do you find it illogical?

 

[pcrdude]

To say "I don't know if a deity exists" is perfectly logical. To claim that one is "anti-theist" is to deny the truth claim made by a theist. In doing so, the atheist makes a truth claim that the theist is wrong, but that is not logically possible to know.

BTW, that same illogical nature applies to the theist..... But I doubt any of them could care less....

 

[Pipug]

Wait, what? Never mind, I am confused enough by the RW, as it is.....

 

[Surf Monkey]

not at all. but your social yardstick about what is and is not apporpriate or what does or does not add or detract from the dialouge is .....bullshit. and since it seems to cause you undue stress I was merely pointing out how perhaps you'd be more comfortable going back to ECF where Classwife can censor every other post that offends the sensebilities of .......

Classwife doesn't even read the OUTSIDE section anymore. You're flipping out about a context that hasn't existed for nearly two years now.

If anyone seems stressed around here it's you, my man. Maybe you should try to relax.

 

[justincase]

Flavius Josephus is about as close as we can get to a secular account of the existence of Jesus.

Yeah......pretty sure the results are in on that.
Turned out to be a fraud/forgery.
Religious scholars don't even bring it up anymore.