Become a Patron!

CLOSED- Debate Invitation to ECF Troublemakers

Status
Not open for further replies.

justincase

Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Very true. I just don't understand how someone else believes or doesn't affects another person, unless they're shoving it down their throat. I've been friends with a lot of forum peeps for years and never had a clue what religion they followed or didn't, and it won't affect me one way or the other. Same if they're gay, straight, short, fat, old, young... Doesn't change my life a bit and we can still get along for the most part. That's why this thread is such a mess, everyone taking someone else's life personally
The problem comes in, speaking just from the perspective of the States, is that there is a serious movement to enact laws that force non believers to be 'ruled' based on religious tenants.
In the US, everyone has a right to believe or not believe.
There's no problem there. But when religion tries to legislate based on the bible, some of us have a problem with that.
Same as the Torah, the Koran or any other holy book.
Same goes for religion trying to dictate what is taught in a science class.

Religion has no place in an institution for learning. Especially not one where my tax dollars are being spent.
In god we trust should be taken off the money.
It never should have been allowed to begin with, but it was the '50's....what can I say. Same goes for some pledge of allegiance to some god.
We're in the 21st century now.
There is no room for bronze age enlightenment in the modern age.

In a recent study, atheist were found to be more distrustful than a rapist.
Someone with violent, sexual tendencies is trusted more than someone who just 'doesn't believe'.
Let that sink in awhile.
Maybe you will begin to understand why some of us are hostile.
 

snake94115

Diamond Contributor
Member For 4 Years
RonSwansonRound.gif
This needs a song...Cheers!

 

always9988

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
The problem comes in, speaking just from the perspective of the States, is that there is a serious movement to enact laws that force non believers to be 'ruled' based on religious tenants.
In the US, everyone has a right to believe or not believe.
There's no problem there. But when religion tries to legislate based on the bible, some of us have a problem with that.
Same as the Torah, the Koran or any other holy book.
Same goes for religion trying to dictate what is taught in a science class.

Religion has no place in an institution for learning. Especially not one where my tax dollars are being spent.
In god we trust should be taken off the money.
It never should have been allowed to begin with, but it was the '50's....what can I say. Same goes for some pledge of allegiance to some god.
We're in the 21st century now.
There is no room for bronze age enlightenment in the modern age.

In a recent study, atheist were found to be more distrustful than a rapist.
Someone with violent, sexual tendencies is trusted more than someone who just 'doesn't believe'.
Let that sink in awhile.
Maybe you will begin to understand why some of us are hostile.
Honey I agree. The fact that all these laws are being based on majority religion pisses me off. Separation of church and state is just a sentence that means nothing.

On the other hand, most people in my life have no clue how I feel about religion. Because I don't bring it up. You can feel upset with an attack I have no trouble with that. But there is no need for personal attacks is all I'm trying to get at. The problem is we have 50+ pages of round and round and downright hateful mean bullshit and near as I can tell not a damn person has changed their minds. And does anyone feel better at the end of the day for it?
 

pulsevape

Diamond Contributor
Member For 4 Years
So, you mean the only way I should stay is if I tell you to fuck off? Is that how it works here? Was I being too nice for you? Sorry.
not at all. but your social yardstick about what is and is not apporpriate or what does or does not add or detract from the dialouge is .....bullshit. and since it seems to cause you undue stress I was merely pointing out how perhaps you'd be more comfortable going back to ECF where Classwife can censor every other post that offends the sensebilities of .......
0ab0dbabf5aa8dfa49810dfc75e9eca6.jpg
 

snake94115

Diamond Contributor
Member For 4 Years
How many people here have ever said 'I don't believe __________'
Now ask yourself how different that statement is when you flip it around to 'I believe __________ doesn't'
Because you changed 1 word's those tense making it a different word.Thus completely changing the sentence structure.
Example below.

I don't believe he gets it.
I believe he doesn't get it.

While they seem to say the same thing...They are completely different things all together.
Now do you get it?
You got it?
Good...Cheers!
 

justincase

Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Well, I think the discussion made a wrong turn when actual atheists showed up and pointed out how wrong their position was being stated.
It didn't fit the 'plan of attack' that was pre-written.

Guess my earlier assessment was accurate.
It was an atheist bashing thread.
 

Pipug

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Because you changed 1 word's those tense making it a different word.Thus completely changing the sentence structure.
Example below.

I don't believe he gets it.
I believe he doesn't get it.

While they seem to say the same thing...They are completely different things all together.
Now do you get it?
You got it?
Good...Cheers!

Pretty sure you are both saying the same thing, no?
 

justincase

Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Because you changed 1 word's those tense making it a different word.Thus completely changing the sentence structure.
Example below.

I don't believe he gets it.
I believe he doesn't get it.

While they seem to say the same thing...They are completely different things all together.
Now do you get it?
You got it?
Good...Cheers!
That was exactly my point.
They are completely different.
 

snake94115

Diamond Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Of course, this debate has been going on, and will continue for a long, long, time. As usual, SM appears to present a logical argument, but on closer inspection, it doesn't hold up. And here is why:

An existential claim (that of something existing) is a binary proposal. It either does, or it doesn't. Like being alive or dead, pregnant or not pregnant. A theist claims that a deity exists. They make no scientific claim about this (if they are smart), but rely on faith in the unprovable. A skeptic may say "I don't believe you unless you have proof". That's actually a good position (scientifically), and is consistent with the agnostic position. In this case, the theist makes what is known in philosophy as a "truth claim". The agnostic denies the truth claim is supported, and therefore withholds assent.

The atheist position, on the other hand is not the same as the agnostic's in this example. In this case, the atheist makes the truth claim that a deity does not exist (even if they don't admit it). Otherwise, they would be an agnostic. Remember that an existential claim is a binary proposal.

But it is illogical to reject a deity, then hedge that it might exist.
Where's a big rig when you need 1.
 

Pipug

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
not at all. but your social yardstick about what is and is not apporpriate or what does or does not add or detract from the dialouge is .....bullshit. and since it seems to cause you undue stress I was merely pointing out how perhaps you'd be more comfortable going back to ECF where Classwife can censor every other post that offends the sensebilities of .......
0ab0dbabf5aa8dfa49810dfc75e9eca6.jpg

I feel no stress at all. Feel free to continue with your inane dialog. Doesn't appear to be too many people listening when you spew bullshit. Try talking like a grown up and you may get better responses. Is that a self portrait, by the way?
 

snake94115

Diamond Contributor
Member For 4 Years
There's something in there though about having compassion, even for those that would turn you away.
Yep and forgiveness too.
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. - Matthew 18:21&18:22
Quick math = 490 times
 

snake94115

Diamond Contributor
Member For 4 Years
compassion is not sympathy....extending compassion includes the realization that this being is where it is at and that sometimes there is nothing you can do about that, it is not in your hands. we all get there in our own time and in our own way, and if they need to bang their head against the wall for a while so be it and that's OK
Compassion without sympathy or empathy seems pretty pointless to me at least.
 

justincase

Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Christ said lots of things including (Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.) - Matthew 10:34
Honestly, we can't actually know what Jesus said because all we have is testimony from folks who never ever knew him. Compound that with the fact there isn't even any real evidence that he even existed at all.

Religion is a strange bird.
Take the Abrahamic religions, for example.
They all worship the same diety, yet they go about it completely different, and insist that their 'version' is the correct one.
Strange indeed!
 

Douggro

Bronze Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
ECF Refugee
Yep and forgiveness too.
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. - Matthew 18:21&18:22
Forgiveness is a selfish/selfless act. If you do wrong to me, my forgiveness is for me to give up making you wrong for it. That, in turn, gives the clearing for me to treat you with love and compassion.
 

snake94115

Diamond Contributor
Member For 4 Years
I didn't call the atheist position dumb per se. I did say it was unscientific and illogical....

Quote from philosophy outside the box:

'it is a positive unbelief. The atheist is not sitting on the sidelines unengaged with the question of God–the atheist makes a positive assertion by actively refusing the proposition “God exists” which means they are just as actively committing to the proposition “God does not exist.” Their active unbelief logically and necessarily entails an active belief. If they claim the title “atheist” then they have no choice but to accept what that word means. They are taking a position and positions must be defended with reason and evidence. The burden of proof is on the one who makes an assertion, and the atheist does make an assertion in their active denial and disbelief. Denying such clear logic and evidence is the very definition of irrationality.

Any atheist who tries to avoid the fact that they are engaging in the active, positive belief in the proposition “God does not exist” should have to explain why they are running away from their own beliefs. '
Please stop quoiting sources and state what you actually believe...Simplify.Justify.
 

snake94115

Diamond Contributor
Member For 4 Years
I'll let you suss that one out on your own terms.

...as far as the Africa comment, it was in reference to a pic that was posted.
You mean the 1 of the sick beggar and the person walking past with a fuck ton of food and not stopping.Yeah that looked like it was in India too.
 

Douggro

Bronze Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
ECF Refugee
Just because I do not believe does not automatically make me the bad guy here. I merely express my own thoughts on the subject and I try to do it respectfully. It is a 2 way street, if you allow it.
Yeah, I think you've acted in a civil manner thus far. Dunno' why there is hostility being directed towards you.
 

pcrdude

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
I honestly haven't seen you actually say what you DO believe and what you do NOT believe. Maybe you could repeat it again?

I believe that anyone who labels him/her self as an atheist is being illogical.

That's my ONLY point, and the ONLY thing I have debated.
 

Douggro

Bronze Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
ECF Refugee
Honestly, we can't actually know what Jesus said because all we have is testimony from folks who never ever knew him. Compound that with the fact there isn't even any real evidence that he even existed at all.
Flavius Josephus is about as close as we can get to a secular account of the existence of Jesus.
Religion is a strange bird.
Take the Abrahamic religions, for example.
They all worship the same deity, yet they go about it completely different, and insist that their 'version' is the correct one.
True, and then there are disagreements further down the line about which particular sectarian beliefs are "correct". Which is a great part in my personal dislike for sectarian religion.
 

snake94115

Diamond Contributor
Member For 4 Years
On the contrary, I already demonstrated that referring to one self as an atheist, but allowing for the possibility of a deity is illogical. That demonstrates YOU don't know what the term means.

;)
Actually somebody else said that first.You said something else completely different.
You've changed your argument multiple times.
Atheism = Disbelief in God...Period full stop.Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
You have said it means something else more times than I care to actually count.
You can't argue the flavor of a donut if there is no actual donut.
 

pcrdude

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Actually somebody else said that first.You said something else completely different.
You've changed your argument multiple times.
Atheism = Disbelief in God...Period full stop.Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
You have said it means something else more times than I care to actually count.
You can't argue the flavor of a donut if there is no actual donut.

Disbelief in a deity is a truth claim (whether you like it or not).
 

pcrdude

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
To say "I don't know if a deity exists" is perfectly logical. To claim that one is "anti-theist" is to deny the truth claim made by a theist. In doing so, the atheist makes a truth claim that the theist is wrong, but that is not logically possible to know.

BTW, that same illogical nature applies to the theist..... But I doubt any of them could care less....

;)
 

Surf Monkey

Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
not at all. but your social yardstick about what is and is not apporpriate or what does or does not add or detract from the dialouge is .....bullshit. and since it seems to cause you undue stress I was merely pointing out how perhaps you'd be more comfortable going back to ECF where Classwife can censor every other post that offends the sensebilities of .......

Classwife doesn't even read the OUTSIDE section anymore. You're flipping out about a context that hasn't existed for nearly two years now.

If anyone seems stressed around here it's you, my man. Maybe you should try to relax.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

VU Sponsors

Top