CLOSED- Debate Invitation to ECF Troublemakers

[Surf Monkey]

So, that's a concession. Thanks.

 

[justincase]

obviously it was a dumb idea to even attempt a two way discussion.......

enjoy ya'lls total stalemate

Let me see of I got this right.
You stated the US was founded on religion.
I show you the only piece of evidence we have that says your statement is false.

Seems that you are the one in check, kind sir.

 

[f1r3b1rd]

What stalemate? Looks to me like a bunch of even tempered atheists trying to defend against a bunch of rabid grudge holders who don't really want to debate so much as they want to vent their bladders at the big bad Surf Monkey.

appears more to me as a third party, to be a passive aggressive discussion to debase religion.
- and I'm not even an outspoken believer. you would be hard pressed to find anyone on here who has heard me mention religion. But I do take issue with anyone trying to influence anyone elses belief system.
especially when what should have been certain death is debased to a "biological anomole"

 

[f1r3b1rd]

Let me see of I got this right.
You stated the US was founded on religion.
I show you the only piece of evidence we have that says your statement is false.

Seems that you are the one in check, kind sir.

because the declration of independnance nor the mayflower compact had no mention of god.... but that doesn't suit your journey to debase god, so we wont mention that...

again fruitless stalemate

 

[pulsevape]

Says the guy who keeps referencing the rape scene in Deliverance.

Good thing you have a mature, compelling argument

I used it more for the audio...

 

[DC2]

IF there is anything close to "godlike" it would be the laws of the universe.

Which magically appeared from a big nothingness?
Not sure that makes any more sense than a God who designed that plan, but what do I know.

I'm just born here, living here, and soon going to be dying here.
Where that leads me is the topic up for debate I guess.

We may not understand the full equation yet, but that doesn't mean we won't someday.
The study of physics is, in my opinion, the closest thing to the study of "god(s)".

As someone who minored in Physics I would agree.
Although not so much a study of God as a study of how God's plan plays out on autopilot.

I'm sure he/she/it has better things to do than monitor the wings of each individual butterfly on a daily basis.

I think that when we finally DO solve the equation, it will make the concept of god obsolete.

I think when we finally do solve the equation, we will finally understand God.
But I doubt that will ever happen in any of our lifetimes.

And I doubt that any of our children will see that come to pass.
But then, I doubt there is much life left in the chaos we call humanity.

We will most likely end ourselves, with or without God's help.
My guess is that those events will coincide.

 

[justincase]

appears more to me as a third party, to be a passive aggressive discussion to debase religion.
- and I'm not even an outspoken believer. you would be hard pressed to find anyone on here who has heard me mention religion. But I do take issue with anyone trying to influence anyone elses belief system.
especially when what should have been certain death is debased to a "biological anomole"

If you took offense to my statement, I apologize. That was not my intent.
As someone who does not believe in the existence of god(s), I was sharing my opinion/view from that regard.
Because it concerns the human body, it relates to biology.
Because it's not something that happens all the time, I consider it an anomaly.
Please don't misunderstand my statement.
I am very happy for you. I am glad you got a 'second chance', so to speak.
I am happy for anyone that gets to experience something extraordinary. .
I just don't share the same view as far as, since we don't know how/why something happens, must be god.

It is difficult to understand an anonymous person from just words on a page.
I was only sharing an alternative viewpoint.

 

[DC2]

Yeah, shouting that I'm a sexual deviant doesn't actually have any impact on me since it's just an impotent lie you're throwing at me out of some kind of misguided frustration and anger. Makes you look like a genuine prick. Happy about that?

The bolded part was what I was referring to as argumentum ad populum.
Basically saying that everyone sees and knows what you are saying is true and that everyone agrees with that.

It's subtle, but it's there.

Anyway, I'm just posting this because you wanted me to point it out.
It's not a shining example, but it's a start.

 

[Surf Monkey]

The bolded part was what I was referring to as argumentum ad populum.
Basically saying that everyone sees and knows what you are saying is true and that everyone agrees with that.

It's subtle, but it's there.

Anyway, I'm just posting this because you wanted me to point it out.
It's not a shining example, but it's a start.

Eh. Pretty long shot. The context should make it clear that it's my opinion. Besides, I don't see anyone suggesting that he isn't being a prick, so...

 

[Surf Monkey]

I used it more for the audio...

Whatever you say.

 

[Surf Monkey]

because the declration of independnance nor the mayflower compact had no mention of god.... but that doesn't suit your journey to debase god, so we wont mention that...

again fruitless stalemate

How does pointing out the actual history equal "debasing God?" The history shows that the Founders specifically set up the government as secular. One that sees ALL religions as equal. Our secular system FAVORS a diversity of religious expression. The fact that we AREN'T a "Christian nation" as far as our legislative framework is concerned is a major BENEFIT to Christians. And Jews. And Muslims. And Animists and etc..

 

[Surf Monkey]

appears more to me as a third party, to be a passive aggressive discussion to debase religion.

Then it appears to me you're reading in something that isn't there.

Go back and look at my posts. Who is throwing nasty insults and smears? Who has been on the defensive since the start? Who has said repeatedly that belief is a person's prerogative?

- and I'm not even an outspoken believer. you would be hard pressed to find anyone on here who has heard me mention religion. But I do take issue with anyone trying to influence anyone elses belief system.

I can't speak for anyone but myself. I have never attempted in this thread to influence anyone's belief system. All I've done is reject belief systems generally and try to get the idea across that dis-belief =/= belief in non-existence.

especially when what should have been certain death is debased to a "biological anomole"

The what now? This is obviously in response to something someone else said.

 

[f1r3b1rd]

How does pointing out the actual history equal "debasing God?" The history shows that the Founders specifically set up the government as secular. One that sees ALL religions as equal. Our secular system FAVORS a diversity of religious expression. The fact that we AREN'T a "Christian nation" as far as our legislative framework is concerned is a major BENEFIT to Christians. And Jews. And Muslims. And Animists and etc..

its the tone of the statements; and, the manner they are given.

If you took offense to my statement, I apologize. That was not my intent.
As someone who does not believe in the existence of god(s), I was sharing my opinion/view from that regard.
Because it concerns the human body, it relates to biology.
Because it's not something that happens all the time, I consider it an anomaly.
Please don't misunderstand my statement.
I am very happy for you. I am glad you got a 'second chance', so to speak.
I am happy for anyone that gets to experience something extraordinary. .
I just don't share the same view as far as, since we don't know how/why something happens, must be god.

It is difficult to understand an anonymous person from just words on a page.
I was only sharing an alternative viewpoint.

look, I'm gonna bottom line it... you two are coming off on here like atheist version of a street preacher.
this is not a debate at all. if it were a debate, there would be some admonishing of some of the the other side, not a selling point that reads as if youre screaming, "denounce your religion and follow us"
To anyone whose belief has helped comfort them in times of tribulation, that is a scathing retribution against something that definitely aided them in a time of need that many people wont understand, and in some cases may have become a huge part of their life.
not every "believer" is a street preacher, some just hold the belief close, and do things in their own way.

this is why I am done trying to "debate" this. there is none. which is why I posted the quote earlier.
you guys not believing doesn't bother me one bit, my personal belief sure as hell shouldn't bother you two any.
I simply stated why and how I came to my belief. By all means go about your damn business.

I thought the clone vs authentic argument was stupid... this one takes the taco and is completely POINTLESS.

 

[DC2]

Eh. Pretty long shot.

Like I said, not a shining example, just a start.
I may find better ones as we go along.


By the way, you asked me what my grudge was against you...
I have a long post waiting in the wings as a "Saved Draft" to answer that, but I'm still not sure I want to...

And I'm not really sure it matters one way or the other to anyone.

For what it's worth, I have some strange form of respect for you.
I'm not really sure why though, but it has to do with your consistency I think, and your ability to do what you do.

But I also had a strange form of respect for stevemgu as well.
So yeah, not sure how that plays out.

 

[pulsevape]

its the tone of the statements; and, the manner they are given.



look, I'm gonna bottom line it... you two are coming off on here like atheist version of a street preacher.
this is not a debate at all. if it were a debate, there would be some admonishing of some of the the other side, not a selling point that reads as if youre screaming, "denounce your religion and follow us"
To anyone whose belief has helped comfort them in times of tribulation, that is a scathing retribution against something that definitely aided them in a time of need that many people wont understand, and in some cases may have become a huge part of their life.
not every "believer" is a street preacher, some just hold the belief close, and do things in their own way.

this is why I am done trying to "debate" this. there is none. which is why I posted the quote earlier.
you guys not believing doesn't bother me one bit, my personal belief sure as hell shouldn't bother you two any.
I simply stated why and how I came to my belief. By all means go about your damn business.

I thought the clone vs authentic argument was stupid... this one takes the taco and is completely POINTLESS.

fuck clones.

 

[f1r3b1rd]

 

[justincase]

Which magically appeared from a big nothingness?

Ahh, but what is nothingness?

Very interesting lecture on the subject if you have time.

We will most likely end ourselves, snip.....

On that, we can agree!
It's happening now, but the science is being ignored. We are almost to the point of irreversibility.

 

[Surf Monkey]

its the tone of the statements; and, the manner they are given.



look, I'm gonna bottom line it... you two are coming off on here like atheist version of a street preacher.
this is not a debate at all. if it were a debate, there would be some admonishing of some of the the other side, not a selling point that reads as if youre screaming, "denounce your religion and follow us"
To anyone whose belief has helped comfort them in times of tribulation, that is a scathing retribution against something that definitely aided them in a time of need that many people wont understand, and in some cases may have become a huge part of their life.
not every "believer" is a street preacher, some just hold the belief close, and do things in their own way.

this is why I am done trying to "debate" this. there is none. which is why I posted the quote earlier.
you guys not believing doesn't bother me one bit, my personal belief sure as hell shouldn't bother you two any.
I simply stated why and how I came to my belief. By all means go about your damn business.

I thought the clone vs authentic argument was stupid... this one takes the taco and is completely POINTLESS.

I mean, when it comes to my posts I couldn't disagree more with this commentary.

For one, attributing a tone to someone and then taking them to task for it is a very suspect thing to do.

For another, I was personally challenged by PCR to debate the logic or lack thereof of atheism. HE started the argument and if you care to scroll back you'll see that HE has been spewing nothing but offensive insults and overtly trying to debase MY viewpoint. He even claims that I'm not a atheist. Have I claimed that anyone here is not a Christian? Have I tried to redefine their viewpoints to suit the argument I want to make? No and no.

Now, if you have a beef with someone else in the thread, feel free to address them, but please don't accuse me of things I haven't done, ESPECIALLY when most of what you just accused me of was done and continued to be done to ME, who wouldn't even be here if I wasn't called out so loudly that I heard it all the way over at a different forum.

 

[Surf Monkey]

So why are you reading it?

 

[Surf Monkey]

Like I said, not a shining example, just a start.
I may find better ones as we go along.


By the way, you asked me what my grudge was against you...
I have a long post waiting in the wings as a "Saved Draft" to answer that, but I'm still not sure I want to...

And I'm not really sure it matters one way or the other to anyone.

For what it's worth, I have some strange form of respect for you.
I'm not really sure why though, but it has to do with your consistency I think, and your ability to do what you do.

One thing I don't do is hold grudges from years ago. I don't think that kind of thing is healthy.

 

[Surf Monkey]

fuck clones.

Are you ever going to present a legitimate argument or is it just base insults with you?

 

[f1r3b1rd]

 

[DC2]

Ahh, but what is nothingness?

Very interesting lecture on the subject if you have time.

An hour and 16 minutes?
Ain't nobody got time for that!

Can you give me a summary version?

 

[justincase]

its the tone of the statements; and, the manner they are given.



look, I'm gonna bottom line it... you two are coming off on here like atheist version of a street preacher.
this is not a debate at all. if it were a debate, there would be some admonishing of some of the the other side, not a selling point that reads as if youre screaming, "denounce your religion and follow us"
To anyone whose belief has helped comfort them in times of tribulation, that is a scathing retribution against something that definitely aided them in a time of need that many people wont understand, and in some cases may have become a huge part of their life.
not every "believer" is a street preacher, some just hold the belief close, and do things in their own way.

this is why I am done trying to "debate" this. there is none. which is why I posted the quote earlier.
you guys not believing doesn't bother me one bit, my personal belief sure as hell shouldn't bother you two any.
I simply stated why and how I came to my belief. By all means go about your damn business.

I thought the clone vs authentic argument was stupid... this one takes the taco and is completely POINTLESS.

Ok.
Please note. PCR wanted to debate how atheism is unscientific.
Perhaps he didn't want to discuss atheism with any actual atheists?
And you do realize that atheist don't believe in god, so that's going to be a point in the discussion?

Was it supposed to be just a discussion/debate amongst yourselves what atheist think/don't think, and that science somehow proves atheist don't know it, but they really believe in god(s) too?

I am not trying to convince anyone to 'join me'.
I'm not in a club.



You're right, this isn't a debate.

 

[justincase]

An hour and 16 minutes?
Ain't nobody got time for that!

Can you give me a summary version?

There is no way I could Cliffs Note Lawrence Krauss.

It would read like the Teletubbies trying to explain algebra!

 

[MC5]

Getting back to the important issue that needs resolution, the Green Hornet trumps both Superman and Batman because he drives a cool Mopar.

Thank God we settled that one.

 

[Huckleberried]

look, I'm gonna bottom line it... you two are coming off on here like atheist version of a street preacher.
this is not a debate at all. if it were a debate, there would be some admonishing of some of the the other side, not a selling point that reads as if youre screaming, "denounce your religion and follow us"
To anyone whose belief has helped comfort them in times of tribulation, that is a scathing retribution against something that definitely aided them in a time of need that many people wont understand, and in some cases may have become a huge part of their life.
not every "believer" is a street preacher, some just hold the belief close, and do things in their own way.
this is why I am done trying to "debate" this. there is none. which is why I posted the quote earlier.
you guys not believing doesn't bother me one bit, my personal belief sure as hell shouldn't bother you two any.
I simply stated why and how I came to my belief. By all means go about your damn business.
I thought the clone vs authentic argument was stupid... this one takes the taco and is completely POINTLESS.

So why are you reading it?

Just a guess, but possibly because it's a heated discussion. Even though it's in the Mud Pit, rules be rules.

 

[Surf Monkey]

View attachment 49166
View attachment 49167

Trying to influence people's ideology? Irony.

 

[f1r3b1rd]

Trying to influence people's ideology? Irony.

illustrating the ridiculousness of this entire trainwreck

 

[Surf Monkey]

Getting back to the important issue that needs resolution, the Green Hornet trumps both Superman and Batman because he drives a cool Mopar.

Thank God we settled that one.

False. The Batman has a fleet of cooler cars than that dump truck.

 

[Surf Monkey]

illustrating the ridiculousness of this entire trainwreck

Fair enough.

 

[justincase]

 

[Untamed Rose]

because the declration of independnance nor the mayflower compact had no mention of god.... but that doesn't suit your journey to debase god, so we wont mention that...

again fruitless stalemate

Umm no totally wrong about the mayflower compact(Here can read the text here Look at..well about every other line http://www.pilgrimhallmuseum.org/mayflower_compact_text.htm )....it was a very deliberate poltical move that the Declaration and other founding documents were not covered in God this and that.

 

[Untamed Rose]

its the tone of the statements; and, the manner they are given.



look, I'm gonna bottom line it... you two are coming off on here like atheist version of a street preacher.
this is not a debate at all. if it were a debate, there would be some admonishing of some of the the other side, not a selling point that reads as if youre screaming, "denounce your religion and follow us"
To anyone whose belief has helped comfort them in times of tribulation, that is a scathing retribution against something that definitely aided them in a time of need that many people wont understand, and in some cases may have become a huge part of their life.
not every "believer" is a street preacher, some just hold the belief close, and do things in their own way.

this is why I am done trying to "debate" this. there is none. which is why I posted the quote earlier.
you guys not believing doesn't bother me one bit, my personal belief sure as hell shouldn't bother you two any.
I simply stated why and how I came to my belief. By all means go about your damn business.

I thought the clone vs authentic argument was stupid... this one takes the taco and is completely POINTLESS.

Hmmmm sounds more like insecurity in your own beliefs....that be a personal issue.

 

[f1r3b1rd]

 

[f1r3b1rd]

Hmmmm sounds more like insecurity in your own beliefs....that be a personal issue.

yes I am an insecure man...
I'm so happy that you are here to diagnose me

 

[pcrdude]

You're arguing with yourself again.

I don't "deny" the existence of god(s). I don't believe in gods. Because no evidence suggests they exist. I don't believe in the negative any more than I believe in the positive.

Your continuing problem here is thinking that atheism is a belief. That's incorrect.

I just showed you. You are not an atheist if you allow for the possibility of a deity. It's just plain logic.

 

[pcrdude]

A theist claims a deity or deities exist. An atheist makes no such claim. A theist bases his/her conclusion on faith. An atheist bases his/her conclusion on data (or the complete lack of data in this case.) A theist believe that there is a god(s). An atheist does not believe there is a god.

So you're STILL stuck in a semantic loop because you fail to make the CRITICAL distinction between "I do not believe in" and "I believe there isn't."

Sorry, the atheist (a true one) is making a 'truth claim" that a deity doesn't exist. I showed you that. If not, it is a claim of agnosticism (as I showed you).

It really isn't about semantics. It's about science, logic, and honesty.

 

[anavidfan]

Getting back to the important issue that needs resolution, the Green Hornet trumps both Superman and Batman because he drives a cool Mopar.

Thank God we settled that one.

I do love that Green Hornet, as much as I like this one, Id still rather have the Hornet.

 

[justincase]

An atheist doesn't claim that a diety doesn't exist.
They claim they don't believe a diety exists.
But you keep on telling me what I don't believe.
I mean, seriously.
Why are you so bent about this?
Like I said, if it helps you sleep better at night thinking all us heathen atheist are going to see the light someday and figure out we really do believe in a deity after all, then have at it.

Do you really not understand the difference between believes/doesn't believe?
They are literally opposite of each other.
He Does Not Believe.
He Does Believe.

You really think those sentences mean the same thing?
No wonder you're confused.

 

[anavidfan]

 

[snake94115]

I can tell you all day I own unicorns..they drink out of the kio pond in my backyard....at what point do you demand evidence?

I think you mean Koi.

You shouldn't let your Unicorns drink out of their pond though.They could get sick.

 

[snake94115]

Last week I ran into 3 separate guys downtown that all claimed to be Jesus Christ.

Unless 1 of them was George Clinton they were lying.

 

[snake94115]

It was a direct answer to those who didn't understand the "levels of belief". It matters not what I do or do not believe. That was not part of the premise of my argument.

There are no levels of belief.Not when it comes to atheism at least.You can not almost not believe in something or vica versa.You're either gonna eat the whole shit sandwich or have a nap.

 

[snake94115]

"Militant atheist is defined as one who is militantly opposed to theism, theists, and religion. Militant atheists have an extreme hostility towards religious theism that entails a desire to see religion suppressed by force. The label militant atheist tends to be used interchangeably with fundamentalist atheist, new atheist, and anti-theist."

http://atheism.about.com/od/Atheist-Dictionary/g/Definition-Militant-Atheist.htm

Got it now?

Even more wiki stuff...FFS why do I bother.

 

[snake94115]

Doesn't seem like it. You ask leading questions, you attack straw men, you propose "levels" of atheism that no atheist here or anywhere I'm aware of subscribe to...

Just saying "my argument is legitimate" doesn't make it so.

I concur I think PCR has formed his own religion...Lets hope it's a Suicide Cult.

 

[snake94115]

Well, what part of my argument is below your comprehension level?

You failed at least 12 times to prove any point at all in any of your arguments.Now you want to say we're stupid?
Wait...wait...Really?
You failed and somehow that makes us the dumb people?
Talk about lack of utter logic...Damn.

I'm still waiting to read what YOUR "level of atheism" is? My guess it is militant atheist (new atheist), and you're embarrassed to admit the scientific failings in that position.

You are the 1 that brought up levels of atheism as I recall.Which I will remind you is wrong.

The Catholics say "mystery of faith" for a reason. Could the strong/militant/new atheists do to same? Claim a "mystery of the faith of atheism"?

The mystery of faith is simple to explain and Catholics aren't the only ones who believe in it.To an extant many Pagans believe in it as well.

 

[snake94115]

somewhere in your extensive spiritual studies you mistook God for Santa Claus.

Or Famine...Just saying.

 

[snake94115]

Oh yeah.
The blessed Mother Teresa



Might want to read up on her.
Evil, vile bitch, she was.

And I never claimed any personal aid/otherwise to the starving, disease infected folks in Africa. Just pointing out Jesus' wonderful healing/helping abilities.....

Oh sure but what about his other abilities?
Oh wait you said you don't believe in those negative abilities.

 

[snake94115]

this thread got disturbing

Welcome to my nightmare.