ECF (its owners) warns on Sub-Ohming and MODs, says likely causes Cancer, Toxins, Explosions, Fires

[jae]

Okay here we are vapping has started to become mainstream and the Big tobacco lobby, Big pharmaceutical lobby, and every state and federal sin tax coffer in the world are now feeling the effects of millions of ex smokers no longer funding their pork projects and unjustifiable pay raises. The so called studies should be done with actual vappers cause to be honest we all Vape differently. The vapor being tested should collected from what I'm exhaling not machine they set up. Now this sub ohm thing another name that doesn't truly fit but that's besides the point. When I drip on a set up that's below 1ohm I take mouth to lung hits and at least 40sec -1minute between my toots, tokes, draws ect... I enjoy dripping and taking my time vapping to enjoy the flavor of my liquids. I'm just about done with my old friend nic.


Now all this hub bub about this chemical being created or that one being created when stuff reaches a certain temperature is pure speculation till proven by a repeatable testing procedure that as of yet has not happened. I don't know about the rest of you but I was not under the illusion that switching to vapping was 100% safe but after a few months I was and my doctor was convinced that it was way safer than smoking period. We all know the story improved lung function and sense of smell and taste returning less sickness in general. No noticable side effects after 2yrs of continuous vapping. We definitely know for a fact that if we continued to smoke traditional tobacco as offered by big tobacco that we faced a multitude of nasty death dealing diseases. Hell folks the fda approved of them using carpet glue to create the much touted fire proof bands knowing it was toxic especially when heated or burned. Their take was well you smokers are already getting so many chemicals that the risk of one more is not enough for us to say no to it. These are the fools that are supposed to protect us from bad drugs and food products how can they when they receive part of their funding from the very corporations they are supposed to regulate! Look at their track record it speaks for itself. It's all about the money our health and well being of the are you ready for it THE CHILDREN! mean absolutely nothing to these people. Breathe, breathe in with the good vapor relax. Okay back to how we Vape.


See I believe it's going to be up to us the vapping community to do our own testing it can't be that hard can it? I mean we organize Vape meets and cons and bashes why not this. Who better than us really we are already some of us into 5+ years of vapping I'm sure those numbers are enough to get a good overview of all the health effects good and bad and unlike the medical establishment which I don't trust well maybe a little bit more than the fda I do we don't have all these restrictions of animal testing for years before human trials ect... We could put forth solid evidence to the world about what exactly this vapping thing is about and what it's effects are on all of us. I'm sure we have some medical folks in our ranks who could make sure we do it right. To sum it up I don't feel my style of vapping is producing any serious amount of bad chemicals for me or anyone around me but I would like to find out and the right way this time not 40yrs from now after tons of junk science studies have flooded the web and the public has been thoroughly scared or brainwashed into thinking what the money changers want them to. Am I crazy to think of this or is it possible for us to do? I believe if we can this action will speak way louder than any words. What do you all think?

"Vaping" not "vapping" unless you are fapping while vaping. And that will definitely grow hair on your palms.

 

[Rapture]

People over at ECF live in their own bubble and are very out of touch with the vaping community. Its still 2010 for them over there.

Yeah true. Not only that but I think they may be mentally ill and possibly suffer from post traumatic stress syndrome from an alien abduction back in the 80's.

 

[VaporJoe]

http://vaporjoe.blogspot.com/2014/07/apocalypse-ecf-warns-sub-ohmers-cancer.html​

 

[Rapture]

Haha ECF warns of apocalypse

 

[VaporJoe]

Some questionable statements. Words like "probably" and "likely" mean nothing in terms of science.

 

[buffaloguy]

I dunno. Im not convinced that sub ohm vaping is a cancer causing time bomb, and Im not convinced that it isnt. It stands to reason and logic that if you heat a substance at sequentially hotter temp then it can transform into other substances at those varying temps. We know this. Its a part of chemistry.

What I also know is there are so many factors at play here as others have said. What is the type of liquid? High PG? High VG? What type of wire? What type of coil design? What type of wicking media was used? How low into sub ohms did the test go? How does wattage/voltage play its role?

How do we know any one of those pieces changed in any one way will effect every other piece, and change the results/outcome??

I think its entirely fair to be cautious. I think its fair to issue a warning to those sub ohming if even one accurate study (if the study is accurate) shows issues. I think its overkill to plaster it all over the site.

Fact is guys and gals we just dont know. So we cant just flat out say what they are doing is wrong. Especially if later on study after study says its likely to be true.

We already know about acrolein and diacetyl. This is old news.

Ever vape a dry coil? That burnt hit will choke your ass out for a couple minutes and you know it. Thats acrolein, formaledhyde (sp sorry), and alot of other nasties. Keep in mind one loosely wrapped coil in your rig can produce ALOT of it and you might barely taste it in the overall vape. A wick not feeding fast enough can produce it too.... regardless of airflow. If a wick is slightly choked out, or the wrong material is used you might be exposed more than someone else will. Think the average vaper knows ANY OF THAT... think again. They dont.

In my mind it makes sense that sub ohming would aggrivate those kinds of situations and make them markedly more toxic. Im not convinced of it, but Im not gonna write it off as some "ECF scare tactic" or "legal protection". I mean why the hell do they care legally? They arent liable for jack or shit. You chose to vape. They didnt put it in your hands. They also never said it was safe and that there are wayyy too many unknowns. Thats all I ever saw there. Thats what I see here too. I think its jumping the gun and premature tho, but its NOT for legal protections.

Dont vape custards. Heck even cinnamon gets a bad rap. Many of us vape flavorings with Triacetin (esp folks that like fruit flavors) which is a plasticizer but it is used for chemical extraction to make flavorings.... it cracks plastic tanks... and we (I do my best not to buy flavorings with triacetin these days) vape it up like labratory crack monkeys. No one even discusses the dangers of it... or if there are? If it melts plastics.... its baaaaad shit! Common sense to me. Dont vape it is my answer.

We need more education and not be complacent on stuff like this. Its valuable info whether we agree with it, or not. I see nothing wrong with ecf being proactive if they feel a study might be even somewhat legit.

 

[MD_Boater]

Being in the UK, ECF may have to cover their asses legally. They have some mighty strange laws over there, and things r that do not cause problems here, can cause problems over there. If I am not mistaken, companies that sell bottled water are not allowed to say that it "cures" dehydration. We all know that it does, they just are not allowed to say so.

 

[buffaloguy]

Ive seen their users say stuff incorrectly like vaping is 100% safe... Ive never seen anyone leading ecf say it is. They arent liable for anything. All Ihave ever seen is them say something along the lines of 'there are risks and unknowns to vaping. Do it at your own risk.' They have always stressed education over there whether it was good or bad news. I hardly see how that amounts to legal responsibility even in the UK or EU but I dont live there so Im ignorant of most of their laws.

I hardly see wrong in ecf warning of this if its warranted. i think its a little trigger happy tho either way.

 

[Alexander Knapp]

http://notsosafe.org/vaping-facts/ Just to add to the madness. I got this from Google Plus.. craziness is all over today. :/

I guess using a tea kettle made of iron would also be harmful, since your heating the water to such a high degree without a thermometer.

Don't use those bagged plastic lettuce either, some of the oil may get into your food.. etc etc. Nicotine in vapor form is as harmful to you as drinking a coke. All this does is make me want to buy a few gallons of 100mg/ml nic juice n 1000 ft of Kanthal wire. Eating McDonalds for a month is also unhealthy and dangerous as well. Ban the burgers! The more I think about this garbage, the more my blood pressure goes up.. Think I will take up drinking, get hammered, and get in a vehicle. Yes, the evil vapors are dripping and driving.. the evil vapors are exposing me to nicotine vapor.. the evil vapors are killing themselves by dripping VG nic into a RDA with a glass cap and mouth piece. Copper pennies are handled daily, with some people rubbing their faces/mouths right after holding a pile of loose change. The HORROR!

 

[Hermit]

I thought it was an ACSH guy, it's not, but it's a guy who seems very open to ecigs and he gives a balanced report of the studies. He starts around 3:10.
Here is where he brings up dripping,
Although he's saying it's from overheating. I guess I'm odd, I get way more than 3 puffs off a dripper.

OK, the forum won't allow to link to a specific time in a video. He mentions dripping at 3h38m58s

This is pissing me off,

Is that time right? I make the segment 3h32m12 to 3h32m45s... let's try this link instead.

Anyway, this is the entirety of his dripping comment:

Now formaldehyde, we now know that dripping on a tank system, it's a way of using an e-cigarette, and I know that I've had this conversation before with Shaun (?), now we do actually have the data that shows that by the third, if you drip, by the third hit you take off that you actually have more formaldehyde than you do coming from a regular cigarette, but you definitely don't on the first hit, so it deals with the heating of the coil and it gets hotter once there's less fluid around it that's saturating it.

Seems like he's referring to some other researcher's study (since he doesn't say "we found ..."). Hard to guess what "dripping on a tank system" actually refers to - 510 carto coil dripping? To me, it doesn't sound at all like an RDA with plenty of wick!

 

[Rapture]

I think those old atomizers that look like cartomizers for dripping are more of a danger than our rebuildable atomizers with fat cotton wicks and coils. I don't know about you but mine stay wet and I could get way more than 3 hits. I re drip before it even comes close to getting dry.

I remember those boge cartomizers. If I vaped too high of voltage on my vamo that shit burned and tasted horrible. People used to say it was the juice burning. People used to say that if you vape too high of volts it would burn the juice creating a bad taste. Now that we rebuild we know that's not true. It was drying out that tiny wick to quickly and burning up the wick, filler material, and possibly combusting any left over juice. It wasn't the juice getting too hot.

I remember when sub ohming first started and people were amazed that it didn't taste burnt because they thought vaping at such high wattage or low resistance would burn the juice.

My point is, with sub ohm builds we use bigger wicks, don't rely on capillary action to keep them wet, we can see them and keep an eye on there appearance, and more airflow. Now I'm not saying vaping isn't of some risk but I believe with rebuilding and dripping you have a much less chance of getting dry hits even with sub ohm setups.

I would just like to know if a well saturated wick or a "normal performing" build in a high wattage setup is creating dangerous amounts of formaldehyde or acrolein.

 

[SMOKIE]

The Text of the Sub-Ohm Public Advisory, on ECF
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/rebuildable-atomizer-systems/562106-ecf-sub-ohm-advisory.html
================
ECF Sub-Ohm Advisory
Sub-ohm vaping has not caused any serious incidents that we are aware of, therefore we cannot describe this activity as risky. There are a couple of areas of concern that some members may wish to take note of.


1. Batteries
Modern batteries are extremely safe compared to those we used to have. If a genuine IMR or hybrid rechargeable cell is destroyed by sub-ohming or some kind of fault, then what appears to happen is that it melts down without any significant out-gassing. The gas generation is the danger factor as it can lead to an explosion, if it takes place in a sealed device. A hot APV does not appear to be a significant danger except in some sort of fire-risk situation (maybe in a gas station, or on an old foam couch/sofa).

What is certainly an issue, though, is if a counterfeit battery is used by mistake; or if someone deliberately uses an ICR (regular Li-ion) cell instead of the modern type of safer-chemistry cell. In that case there could be a significant outgas risk in the event of a battery failure, which translates to risk for an explosive event.

- Please make sure to use genuine IMR or hybrid cells from a reputable source, and DO NOT USE regular Li-ion cells (ICR) for heavy-duty applications like this.
- The use of a sealed metal tube for a high-power application using lithium ion cells in front of the face is an intrinsically bad idea. Gas vents are a good idea, and the bigger the better - in case the wrong battery is used. This applies even more if batteries are stacked (placed in series) as the risk is multiplied up (the only explosive events known have all taken place in metal tube mechmods with stacked cells) [1].


2. Inhalation issues

It is likely that the super-heating of e-liquids that takes place in an RBA run at less than 1 ohm will create some toxic materials.

This is just plain logic and should not be seen as anything radically new: burning up refills creates some nasties and there is no way around that. It is likely that materials such as acrolein and aldehydes will be seen in measurable quantities, and some pyrolytic compounds may even be created.

Inhalation of sub-ohm vapor is probably not the same as regular vapor and therefore may have additional risk. It is likely to create conditions where potential carcinogens (cancer-causing agents) will be seen in measurable amounts, and so there must be some elevation of risk, which will escalate as resistance goes down and heat goes up.

We can regard this as significantly more important than battery safety at this time: there are no reported incidents of exploding APVs or house fires caused by sub-ohm rigs self-destructing; but there are probably thousands of people inhaling materials that are simply not present in vapor from a regular clearo run at 2.5 ohms.

Buttery flavors
We have to add a specific note on butter/creamy flavors here. Diacetyl or a similar substitute is present in some flavors, and it is likely that many of this flavor group have exactly the same issues as diacetyl, since they are all fairly similar molecules. Because of the sheer volume of liquid consumed and the volume of vapor created by sub-ohming, all issues related to refill liquid safety are magnified. Previously it was considered that consumption of 10ml of refill liquid per day was high; now there are rumors that some sub-ohmers may even consume 20ml a day.

Until more information is available, our advice is that all butter/cream type flavors are avoided for sub-ohm use (inhalation of the butter-popcorn-custard flavoring diacetyl can cause the irreversible degenerative lung disease bronchiolitis obliterans, aka 'popcorn lung').

This warning is not pure speculation:

• A research study has already indicated that the vapor created by high-power vaping contains more potentially toxic compounds
• Dr Farsalinos' recent study reports that a very high percentage of cream-type flavors contain diacetyl even when the vendor claims there is none present
• He states that 7 out of 10 vendors who claim there is no diacetyl in their products are not correct.

-------------------
[1] Stacked cells

If you want to risk using stacked cells in a metal tube in front of your face (which is a really bad idea in the first place) then you must be absolutely sure they are not counterfeits and/or that you have very large gas vents. In the days before VV and RBAs, this was much more common - and there were some appalling facial injuries from explosions as a result. BE WARNED.

We very much hoped that we had seen the last of that practice as VV devices can generate any voltage and have electronic fusing, and RBAs allow a massive vape to be generated off a single high-quality battery by going low-res; but there have been some references lately to using stacked cells with an RBA. People can do what they like, but they should at least be aware that when this was done in the past, vapers ended up in the ER. Batteries are far safer now - but that assumes you have genuine batteries...

Our advice would be that if you truly need a monster vape, then use a single 30 amp 18650 of super high quality, or a 26650, and a low-res coil on the RBA. Anything is better than stacking batts and driving them hard in front of and partly inside your face in a sealed metal tube. We have seen the results of that and it was disastrous.

There have been independent studies done that have shown the change of the liquid when it heats that hot breaking down into carcinogens, plus there are vapers who have had blood metal poisoning from the coils getting that hot which again changes the chemistry to toxic fumes.

 

[Rapture]

There have been independent studies done that have shown the change of the liquid when it heats that hot breaking down into carcinogens, plus there are vapers who have had blood metal poisoning from the coils getting that hot which again changes the chemistry to toxic fumes.

Are we talking about dry hits here or...

 

[Rapture]

Can anyone put into perspective the measurements of acrolein and formaldehyde that are considered above safe limits. I'm having a hard time understanding this while ppm and ppb stuff.

 

[SMOKIE]

Are we talking about dry hits here or...

Not Really! But the wetter the better.

 

[Rapture]

After reading about acrolein and formaldehyde, wouldnt you think if it was being created in measurable quantities in everyday normal working Atties we would be suffering at least some nose, throat, eye, or upper respiratory irritation?

 

[Alexander Knapp]

Whatever you do don't do this then:

and use the oven ever again, for carcinogen and formaldehyde safeness.

 

[tombaker]

There have been independent studies done that have shown the change of the liquid when it heats that hot breaking down into carcinogens, plus there are vapers who have had blood metal poisoning from the coils getting that hot which again changes the chemistry to toxic fumes.

I believe the study you are referring to is the one from the NY times, where they ran coils very hot, into machines, and tested the output, and found that some levels approached that of a cigarette, when being burned. This ignores airflow and wicking. If you are passing more air over a hotter surface quickly, you are not heating the liquid more. It also ignores the tasting element. The machine is vaping long after a Vaper would have stopped. If you burn a hotdog, fry it to a crisp, and eat it, you are getting toxins, but you don't do that. People don't vape at high watts and vape burnt juice.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2519/does-barbecuing-cause-cancer
When organic plant or animal matter is burned, a number of toxic, mutagenic by-products are formed. Many of these by-products are exactly the same as those produced in the burning of tobacco that accounts for the toxic and cancer promoting effects of cigarettes. According to the National Cancer Institute, cancers of the colon, stomach and other digestive system malignancies are associated with high intake of charred or burned meats. While this effect has not yet been rigorously established for other burned foods such as burnt toast, the same effect is possible.

 

[tombaker]

Dr Farsalinos addresses the NYT study and explains what they did and how they did it wrong. This was published before ECF posted, everyone knew the flaws. Lets burn juice and see what we get.

http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/2013-04-07-09-50-07/2014/162-nyt-formald
A study to be published in Nicotine and Tobacco Research was featured in the New York Times and has generated a lot of interest. The article mentioned that e-cigarette vapor can be the source of carcinogens, depending on the heating process.

The article is true and expected. We know that thermal degradation can lead to the release of toxic chemicals. And we know that formaldehyde, acetaldehyde and acrolein have been found in vapor. There is nothing new to it. However, this study found that levels may approach those present in tobacco cigarettes. Of course there some inaccuracies in the NYT article, such as that nicotine gets overheated (which means nothing).

Herein, I present with more detail the results of this study. Researchers used an EGO Twist battery (variable voltage) and a top-coil clearomizer (with unknown resistance, thus unknown wattage delivery). At 3.2 and 4.0 volts, formaldehyde levels were 13-807 times lower compared to tobacco cigarettes!! At 4.8 volts, formaldehyde levels were increased by up to 200 times, and reached to levels similar to tobacco cigarettes.

The main criticism to this study is that in my opinion it is highly unlikely that a top-coil atomizer like the one used in this study would be used at 4.8 volts. At a resistance of 2.2 Ohms that would represent 10.4 watts of energy delivery to the atomizer. I tried 10 watts with an EVIC battery in a Vivi Nova top-coil atomizer (for a clinical study i perfomed few months ago), and many vapers were unable to use it due to the dry puff phenomenon. Unfortunately, the researchers did not measure and could not provide any information about the resistance of the atomizers, thus it is unknown how much energy was delivered to the atomizer. In my opinion, this is crucial. Moreover, it is very important to examine new-generation (rebuildable or bottom coil) atomizers at similar conditions, since it is more likely for vapers to use such advanced atomizers for high-wattage vaping. I am certain that, due to better liquid resupply to the resistance and wick, the results will be much more favorable.

Another important point is that, although formaldehyde levels can be similar to tobacco, several other toxic chemicals are completely absent from e-cigarette vapor. For example, acrolein was completely absent although they used liquids with glycerol as the main ingredient. In fact, glycerin-based liquids had much lower formaldehyde levels in vapor compared to PG or PG/VG liquids, suggesting that they are much safer to use. As a general remark, finding few chemicals at similar levels does not mean that the risk is equivalent to tobacco cigarettes. Of course, all this information was not presented in the NYT article.

Concerning the remarks about dripping, we should admit that dripping does not allow the user to see how much liquid is present in the atomizer. The same happens with cartomizers. We currently do not know whether the elevation in formaldehyde levels happens just at the time of dry puff phenomenon, or it happens earlier (before being detected by the vaper). Clearomizer-type atomizers (also called tank systems) seem to be the future in e-cigarette use, giving consumers the ability to know when they need to resupply the atomizer with liquid.

 

[SMOKIE]

I believe the study you are referring to is the one from the NY times, where they ran coils very hot, into machines, and tested the output, and found that some levels approached that of a cigarette, when being burned. This ignores airflow and wicking. If you are passing more air over a hotter surface quickly, you are not heating the liquid more. It also ignores the tasting element. The machine is vaping long after a Vaper would have stopped. If you burn a hotdog, fry it to a crisp, and eat it, you are getting toxins, but you don't do that. People don't vape at high watts and vape burnt juice.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/81614-top-cancer-causing-foods/ When organic plant or animal matter is burned, a number of toxic, mutagenic by-products are formed. Many of these by-products are exactly the same as those produced in the burning of tobacco that accounts for the toxic and cancer promoting effects of cigarettes. According to the National Cancer Institute, cancers of the colon, stomach and other digestive system malignancies are associated with high intake of charred or burned meats. While this effect has not yet been rigorously established for other burned foods such as burnt toast, the same effect is possible.

NO, NOT at all! The studies,and testing I am talking about are from 2 very well known mod makers who do not want to go public at this point in time, my guess they are waiting for something to happen first publicly.

 

[Hermit]

Some questionable statements. Words like "probably" and "likely" mean nothing in terms of science.

Of course not. But ECF is not a scientific establishment, so that's kinda excusable. What really riles me is when (supposedly real) scientists string together cherry picked facts and present them as if they are the general case, to promote an ANTZ agenda or whatever.

There have been independent studies done that have shown the change of the liquid when it heats that hot breaking down into carcinogens, plus there are vapers who have had blood metal poisoning from the coils getting that hot which again changes the chemistry to toxic fumes.

If something can happen, then:
1) it will happen at least some times
2) it's not a given it will happen all, or even most, of the time.

So the questions are: what circumstances cause it to happen, and how can it be avoided.

It's certainly not a given that a sub-ohm coil gets so hot that it produces significant nasties. And it's also possible for a high ohm coil to get hot enough to produce nasties, even at fairly low watts (it just won't produce as much of them, presumably, but the wire can still get red hot and it could still be a medically significant amount).

So we need more research that focuses on overall usage studies, rather than stringing together possiblities into theories - those theories need to be put to the test, as it were.

Should novices build their own coils? Maybe not, without someone to guide them. Should we trust any coil wihout question? Certainly not, if you looks at some of kanger's crappy stock coils - loose, uneven (in both spacing and diameter), hotspots, etc. TBH, even a novice could build a better coil than some of the ones I've seen.

 

[tombaker]

NO, NOT at all! The studies,and testing I am talking about are from 2 very well known mod makers who do not want to go public at this point in time, my guess they are waiting for something to happen first publicly.

So they weren't actual studies. And we don't know what was tested. And they are not saying anything to anyone. As far as heavy metal poisoning to the blood, what are the metals from Kanthal we are talking about? Is the melting point of Kanthal not to spec?

Kanthal is the trademark for a family of iron-chromium-aluminium (FeCrAl) alloys used in a wide range of resistance and high-temperature applications. Kanthal FeCrAl alloys consist of mainly iron, chromium (20–30%) and aluminium (4–7.5 %). Ordinary Kanthal FeCrAl alloy has a melting point of 1,200 °C (2,190 °F). A1 Special grades have a melting point as high as 1,425 °C (2,597 °F).
http://www.kanthal.com/en/products/...heating-wire-and-resistance-wire/kanthal-a-1/

 

[Rapture]

Of course not. But ECF is not a scientific establishment, so that's kinda excusable. What really riles me is when (supposedly real) scientists string together cherry picked facts and present them as if they are the general case, to promote an ANTZ agenda or whatever.



If something can happen, then:
1) it will happen at least some times
2) it's not a given it will happen all, or even most, of the time.

So the questions are: what circumstances cause it to happen, and how can it be avoided.

It's certainly not a given that a sub-ohm coil gets so hot that it produces significant nasties. And it's also possible for a high ohm coil to get hot enough to produce nasties, even at fairly low watts (it just won't produce as much of them, presumably, but the wire can still get red hot and it could still be a medically significant amount).

So we need more research that focuses on overall usage studies, rather than stringing together possiblities into theories - those theories need to be put to the test, as it were.

Should novices build their own coils? Maybe not, without someone to guide them. Should we trust any coil wihout question? Certainly not, if you looks at some of kanger's crappy stock coils - loose, uneven (in both spacing and diameter), hotspots, etc. TBH, even a novice could build a better coil than some of the ones I've seen.

Completely agree with everything you have stated here and above. I appreciate your comments. We all know that a stock top fed clearomizer needs to be tipped to resaturate juice. I doubt this was done during that testing hence the 200 times increase. We all know those clearso cannot just be chained vaped at max volts. Those wicks are freakin tiny man. One of my cotton wicks is double the size of just one of those. I bet my wicks can hold almost as much juice as the whole clearomizer tank. We also know those cleans have like no airflow.

 

[tombaker]

Refering people back to Post 10 of this thread by Hermit, http://vapingunderground.com/thread...ncer-toxins-explosions-fires.4148/#post-33956
His text, and what he references written by UncleChuck
============================================
From UncleChuck:
Here is the part I take issue with:

"Inhalation of sub-ohm vapor is probably not the same as regular vapor and therefore may have additional risk. It is likely to create conditions where potential carcinogens (cancer-causing agents) will be seen in measurable amounts, and so there must be some elevation of risk, which will escalate as resistance goes down and heat goes up.

We can regard this as significantly more important than battery safety at this time: there are no reported incidents of exploding APVs or house fires caused by sub-ohm rigs self-destructing; but there are probably thousands of people inhaling materials that are simply not present in vapor from a regular clearo run at 2.5 ohms."​

I understand and appreciate the desire to keep the community safe, but this is simply inaccurate.

The paragraph suggests that sub-ohm builds are overheating vapor and producing dangerous cancer causing chemicals. Aside from the fact that not a single source was referenced, simple logic applied to the situation would strongly suggest subohm builds are no different in their potential danger than a regular clearo run at 2.5 ohm, I'll explain why.

When you get a dry/burnt hit, it's offensive. It stings the throat, and tastes awful. That's because overheating the eliquid causes the formation of Acrolein:

From Wikipedia:

"...is caused by glycerol in the burning fat breaking down into acrolein."

"[acrolein] is a colourless liquid with a piercing, disagreeable, acrid smell."

Acrolein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

If the advisory was correct in suggesting that sub-ohm builds are overheating liquid, sub-ohm vapers would be constantly inhaling large amounts of acrolein. They aren't. A giant silky smooth cloud does not have significant quantities of Acrolein in it. A harsh hit from a 2.5 ohm coil with a choked wick (fairly common for the hit-or-miss quality of commercial coils) has significant enough quantities of acrolein to make most people want to vomit their lungs out.

If someone is inexperienced in coil building, it's very possible they could choke a wick or something else resulting in exactly what the advisory suggests. But the fact is, that has nothing to do with sub-ohm vaping, and non-subohm commercial equipment is just as likely to exhibit this, if not more likely.

 

[SMOKIE]

So they weren't actual studies. And we don't know what was tested. And they are not saying anything to anyone. As far as heavy metal poisoning to the blood, what are the metals from Kanthal we are talking about, is the melting point of Kanthal not to spec?

And yes blood poisoning from the Kanthal wire heated to a certain temperature and beyond. And the tests of the liquids turning into carcinogens with too much heat from this mod maker I believe over any other study because this is what he does for a living also.

 

[Rapture]

So I guess the general thoughts here are still, avoid dry hits and vaping is probably if not definitely safer than smoking.

 

[tombaker]

And yes blood poisoning from the Kanthal wire heated to a certain temperature and beyond. And the tests of the liquids turning into carcinogens with too much heat from this mod maker I believe over any other study because this is what he does for a living also.

I have some seen some information in the MSDS of Kanthal that TIG welding temperature can be a problem, so 5000+ degrees Fahrenheit, which I don't think is a temperature being reached in Sub-Ohming vaping. Again if the Hot Dog Vendor on the corner is serving chard and burnt dogs, they are also cancerous, but you would taste it, and not eat it, much like a vape.
I believe what Dr Farsalinos wrote on it, over some unnamed, unknown, unverifiable study. If they are not willing to publish, its not science, and since he does it for a living, and he is not publishing, its reasonable to think they are not confident enough of whatever they found.

Long way of saying I don't believe it, because you can not show anything.
http://siri.org/msds/f2/cfz/cfzrl.html Kanthal A1 MSDS
Temco has a line of http://www.vapowire.com/pages/about which is specific to rebuilding, so I am sure as large company they would have done some specific research what is coming out

 

[Alexander Knapp]

The experts summed up their letter by saying “the basic proposition of harm reduction is not that the alternative nicotine products are harmless, but that they offer reductions in risk of 95 percent or more compared to cigarettes, and provide a viable alternative to smokers who cannot or do not wish to quit using nicotine.”

Source: http://www.journalnow.com/business/...cle_93307caa-10f6-11e4-9358-0017a43b2370.html

Thanks to Scott McKirahan for the link!

 

[Evilsock]

OK I made an account just to reply to this. (been meaning to anyway)
First. Are we forgetting the big question?
Hold a analog next to any vape device, which has more health risks? Has anyone died fromvaping yet? I believe the first recorded death from regular cigs was in the first couple years.
Now. Please don't ask me how I know, but I have "heard" there have been "plants" in the ecf forum by big tobacco companies. Not only to keep up with what's current but for this reason. To cause doubt. This may not be true, but could u put it past them? I deleted my accountwith them long ago when they started taking down threads. If we ccan't have free speech on an educational forum then what's next?
Long story short. Let me know when the first person gets cancer or dies from sub ohming. Till then im gonna blow tasty clouds at point one five till the wheels fall off.
(drops mic)

 

[kuma]

Looks like ECF got some of that Big Tobacco/Pharma money.

 

[Evilsock]

I can understand airing on the side of caution, but as tight knit of a community as vaping has become, I really don't see anyone that has a passion that has enough of said passion to start a forum to just openly bash a sector of the community like that without a little palm greasing of some sort.
Yes sub ohming has been the focus of many a scuffle. People saying we're holding pipe bombs and what not, but saying that dropping below an ohm is going to give us cancer is slightly rediclous and unfounded.
Imo

Edit: I just thought about this, isn't the reason we get more clouds from sub ohm builds bc it heats up alot quicker and has more surface area on the wire? Correct me if I'm wrong plz. It seems to me that the actual temp of wire can't be that much hotter bc of air flow on the coils keeps it cool. How much hotter can a sub ohm coil be? I'm speaking of when air is passing over the coils. If the tests have been done with the cap off and just hitting the fire button then that's not what we inhale. When we draw from the atty our air cools the coils. They never glow red while we are using them. I really don't know but I'd like to. If someone could get one of those thermos that has a laser pointer and test the temp of a 2 ohm coil vs point 5, I'd really like to know how much hotter the sub ohm is.

 

[VaporJoe]

I don't think anyone should be saying ANYTHING until there are some real facts. We can't go by what a few peoples experiences are.
If that were the case - don't eat Peanut Butter or strawberries - it kills people every year!!

 

[VaporJoe]

I can understand airing on the side of caution, but as tight knit of a community as vaping has become, I really don't see anyone that has a passion that has enough of said passion to start a forum to just openly bash a sector of the community like that without a little palm greasing of some sort.
Yes sub ohming has been the focus of many a scuffle. People saying we're holding pipe bombs and what not, but saying that dropping below an ohm is going to give us cancer is slightly rediclous and unfounded.
Imo

Edit: I just thought about this, isn't the reason we get more clouds from sub ohm builds bc it heats up alot quicker and has more surface area on the wire? Correct me if I'm wrong plz. It seems to me that the actual temp of wire can't be that much hotter bc of air flow on the coils keeps it cool. How much hotter can a sub ohm coil be? I'm speaking of when air is passing over the coils. If the tests have been done with the cap off and just hitting the fire button then that's not what we inhale. When we draw from the atty our air cools the coils. They never glow red while we are using them. I really don't know but I'd like to. If someone could get one of those thermos that has a laser pointer and test the temp of a 2 ohm coil vs point 5, I'd really like to know how much hotter the sub ohm is.

Im with you there. There is no reason to bash another style of vaping. Should they just go back to smoking? I mean really. You might scare non-vapers into not starting because they have no idea what the word "subohm" is.

 

[RPadTV]

Inhalation of sub-ohm vapor is probably not the same as regular vapor and therefore may have additional risk.

I'd love to learn the definition of "regular vapor." It's hard to take the point seriously with such arbitrary and completely unscientific terms.

 

[Tbolt]

I just pulled this from my google+ from Joe after he posted this: dum waldo 6:19 AM There is quite a bit of science to support the statements made by ecf. There is no science at all that would support vapor joes statements. Heating vegetable glycerin creates Acrolein. This is not an opinion, this is a scientifically proven fact. Inhaling Acrolein increases the risk of cancer. Again, this is not an opinion, it is a proven scientific fact. To put it quite bluntly, vapers need to shut the fuck about science because you are some ignorant motherfuckers and your ignorant behaviors demean the credibility of actually educated advocates. It's gotten to the point where the amount of bad science promoted by vapers has grown greater than the amount of bad science promoted by the antis. What would you think of a doctor that is opposed to ecigs so he privately does independent unaudited studies that are never peer reviewed and then he went on publishing study after study showing ecigs to be bad?

First of all, I'm not a stupid motherfucker! Second, I feel so much better than I EVER did vaping. After 2 years of not smoking, I don't wake up coughing out a lung, my taste is better, I can smell better, I don't stink like an ash tray,I can walk up and down 4 flights of stairs without being out of breath... how's that for science?

 

[Myk]

Its a study that was done, commented on in the NYTs and descredited by Dr. F......If you bothered to read the OP you would have a clue. Or you can read what was posted by Hermit in post 10. I know you are no fan of me, but dude, try reading.

I'm going out on a limb to say the study mentioned in the OK hearing is different than the Roswell study since it was long before the NYT article which was before that study was released (which I have never seen it since it was actually released).
I didn't need Dr. F to tell me the problem with the Roswell study, but it was nice to have his confirmation.

The guy didn't say what study he was talking about. He could've had some inside information about Roswell except Roswell (to my failing memory) wasn't dripping.

I'm not sure which comment got ECF to issue their warning.

It's not really rocket science to know overheating is bad. Most of us have tasted it. The problem is getting someone to set up a study who understands vaping and set up a realistic study to know what we actually get with different methods AND compare that to smoking.

And just because (if) there is more formaldehyde produced by an overheating ecig, that risk still needs to be compared to a cigarette's other risks not just the cigarette's formaldehyde.
I'm going to vape or I'm going to smoke. I'd like to know for sure that my gut is right and vaping is safer, although my gut has other issues where smoking helps me more.

Is that time right? I make the segment 3h32m12 to 3h32m45s... let's try this link instead.

Anyway, this is the entirety of his dripping comment:


Seems like he's referring to some other researcher's study (since he doesn't say "we found ..."). Hard to guess what "dripping on a tank system" actually refers to - 510 carto coil dripping? To me, it doesn't sound at all like an RDA with plenty of wick!

That's the time YT told me. I think it can get confused with long videos.

I thought I had cleared it up that he was listing off studies he knew about and seemed to be giving a fair report. He wasn't who my memory had him being.

I don't think a carto is a tank in anyone's book. Hard to say what he meant, he's obviously not a vaper but at least he does go into vape shops to learn.

 

[txgirl3eb]

until standards in ejuice are in place, and human trials II-V are completed and issued in a peer reviwed scientific journal, no one knows exactly what the benefits and risks are - just many opinions and you know what the saying is about those...

 

[VaporJoe]

until standards in ejuice are in place, and human trials II-V are completed and issued in a peer reviwed scientific journal, no one knows exactly what the benefits and risks are - just many opinions and you know what the saying is about those...

Exactly. The "facts" are being cherry picked and blown up.

 

[kuma]

I just pulled this from my google+ from Joe after he posted this: dum waldo 6:19 AM There is quite a bit of science to support the statements made by ecf. There is no science at all that would support vapor joes statements. Heating vegetable glycerin creates Acrolein. This is not an opinion, this is a scientifically proven fact. Inhaling Acrolein increases the risk of cancer. Again, this is not an opinion, it is a proven scientific fact. To put it quite bluntly, vapers need to shut the fuck about science because you are some ignorant motherfuckers and your ignorant behaviors demean the credibility of actually educated advocates. It's gotten to the point where the amount of bad science promoted by vapers has grown greater than the amount of bad science promoted by the antis. What would you think of a doctor that is opposed to ecigs so he privately does independent unaudited studies that are never peer reviewed and then he went on publishing study after study showing ecigs to be bad?

First of all, I'm not a stupid motherfucker! Second, I feel so much better than I EVER did vaping. After 2 years of not smoking, I don't wake up coughing out a lung, my taste is better, I can smell better, I don't stink like an ash tray,I can walk up and down 4 flights of stairs without being out of breath... how's that for science?

This was posted by someone reffering to themselves as "dum waldo"

 

[VaporJoe]

This was posted by someone reffering to themselves as "dum waldo"

Waldo has been around a very long time. His hearts in the right place but he is even against vaping flavors.

 

[Nu2Mods]

OK I made an account just to reply to this. (been meaning to anyway)
First. Are we forgetting the big question?
Hold a analog next to any vape device, which has more health risks? Has anyone died fromvaping yet? I believe the first recorded death from regular cigs was in the first couple years.
Now. Please don't ask me how I know, but I have "heard" there have been "plants" in the ecf forum by big tobacco companies. Not only to keep up with what's current but for this reason. To cause doubt. This may not be true, but could u put it past them? I deleted my accountwith them long ago when they started taking down threads. If we ccan't have free speech on an educational forum then what's next?
Long story short. Let me know when the first person gets cancer or dies from sub ohming. Till then im gonna blow tasty clouds at point one five till the wheels fall off.
(drops mic)

Agreed...when did the comparison move from "analog vs ecig" to "clean air vs ecig"? I'd about guess when the first few TRUE lab tests began confirming that ecigs were much less harmful than analogs. So much so that the big tobacca-pharma conglomerates had to begin a misdirection campaign...keep the public focused on clean air vs ecigs. Today it is rare that I hear the tobacco comparison.

 

[Nu2Mods]

Heating vegetable glycerin creates Acrolein. This is not an opinion, this is a scientifically proven fact. Inhaling Acrolein increases the risk of cancer. Again, this is not an opinion, it is a proven scientific fact.

Once again, I ask, "How much Acrolein is in the vapor??"

 

[Hermit]

That's the time YT told me. I think it can get confused with long videos.

I've no idea... the link I posted seems to work OK, so hopefully that will help people find it if they want to listen

I thought I had cleared it up that he was listing off studies he knew about and seemed to be giving a fair report. He wasn't who my memory had him being.

Sorry, I must've missed that, just that when I listened to it I wasn't sure. I wasn't trying to dig holes in what you said at all!

I don't think a carto is a tank in anyone's book. Hard to say what he meant, he's obviously not a vaper but at least he does go into vape shops to learn.

I've no idea what he meant either, but that was my best guess at something that could fit the '3 hits' thing. It would certainly be useful to find out.

 

[VaporJoe]

Heating vegetable glycerin creates Acrolein. This is not an opinion, this is a scientifically proven fact. Inhaling Acrolein increases the risk of cancer. Again, this is not an opinion, it is a proven scientific fact.

Once again, I ask, "How much Acrolein is in the vapor??"

That is the key. Thats what's important. Just because something contains something in trace amounts- doesn't mean its bad for you. Apple seeds contain trace amounts of cyanide - that doesn't mean you cant eat apples or the seeds.

 

[kuma]

Waldo has been around a very long time. His hearts in the right place but he is even against vaping flavors.

Well at least he means well. Ive met quite a few people in my life similar to that

 

[VaporJoe]

Lol someone on Facebook posted this - I had too.​

 

[Nu2Mods]

That is the key. Thats what's important. Just because something contains something in trace amounts- doesn't mean its bad for you. Apple seeds contain trace amounts of cyanide - that doesn't mean you cant eat apples or the seeds.

Exactly! There are 2 things to weigh a toxicity against for a given chemical...the amount and the duration. Just because there is a "presence" or "detectable" amount does not mean it is acutely (immediately) or chronically (long-term) toxic.

 

[Nu2Mods]

I just came across a new word... Zohnerism: refers to "the use of a true fact to lead a scientifically and mathematically ignorant public to a false conclusion. Wow! Let's put that word in our mods and vape on it awhile! Those folks now have a name...Zohnerists!

 

[Kilz]

While I dont like what ECF posted, I can see why they did it. The liability laws in the UK as very very different than here in the US, especially as it relates to information posted on an online forum. In the US those that run a forum are protected from liability issues when the posts are not those of the people running the forum. Not so in the UK, those that run the forum can be held liable for posts by ordinary members. With the traffic on the site it may be impossible to get every post that could be used as a basis of a lawsuit.

What I would have rather them posted is this, changes in bold and italics.

2. Inhalation issues

In the opinion of the staff is likely that the super-heating of e-liquids that takes place in an RBA run at less than 1 ohm may create some toxic materials. Further study is needed to determine exactly what may be released. ​

IMHO Infighting between the forums is bad for vapers, especially new vapers. While I disagree with the exact verbiage used ECF has done an ok job of helping new vapers get off of combustibles. It would be tragic if someone were scared away from vaping because of infighting found in a search.

 

[VaporJoe]

While I dont like what ECF posted, I can see why they did it. The liability laws in the UK as very very different than here in the US, especially as it relates to information posted on an online forum. In the US those that run a forum are protected from liability issues when the posts are not those of the people running the forum. Not so in the UK, those that run the forum can be held liable for posts by ordinary members. With the traffic on the site it may be impossible to get every post that could be used as a basis of a lawsuit.

What I would have rather them posted is this, changes in bold and italics.

2. Inhalation issues

In the opinion of the staff is likely that the super-heating of e-liquids that takes place in an RBA run at less than 1 ohm may create some toxic materials. Further study is needed to determine exactly what may be released. ​

IMHO Infighting between the forums is bad for vapers, especially new vapers. While I disagree with the exact verbiage used ECF has done an ok job of helping new vapers get off of combustibles. It would be tragic if someone were scared away from vaping because of infighting found in a search.

Someone needs to call them on their bullshit. Its long over due.
Their bully tactics and disinformation is wrong.
We don't let things slide simply to keep the peace. If shit is wrong - its wrong.

That warning can do A LOT of damage to the vaping community. New vapers have no idea what SUBOHM means. They may walk away completely seeing something like that.