ECF (its owners) warns on Sub-Ohming and MODs, says likely causes Cancer, Toxins, Explosions, Fires

[tombaker]

lol, its the same video I linked to earlier in the thread. Keepin mind those thermal readings may be close, OR they may not be. They also read the surrounding air temp that is much cooler. There isnt a way for me to know. I dont have that kinda cash to invest in a thermocouple.

I think you would have to thermocouple the coil for an accurate reading. Just for overview's sake:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple

Its likely that inside the coil in an rda, as juice is not "fed" as in a pressure or gravity based atomizer, a thermocouple would get readings much hotter than the gun would. Especially as the wick begins to dry out, and we a know people that try to vape every drop before they redrip. We should advise them maybe to not do that.

I think his work holds much merit and its a good start but I want people to know that its not likely accurate. It could be.close tho.

Everything you posted supports that he got accurate readings.
It says "Ideally you would use infrared thermometers to temp the surface of hot oil, a cast iron skillet, a saute pan, even chocolate and soup." So it should get an excellent reading of the coil, and the wick. In the video he got tow readings when trying to do the wick. 70 and 135, The higher is most likely the coil, the surrounding wick would be the 70. Regardless the highest temperature he got was 135, the rest of the temps would be lower, the Coil is on top.
I suppose I could poke an electronic meat thermometer in middle of the wick, but I don't think the data is gonna be significantly different.

The key points are the total temperature of the raw wick was 295, the critical temperature is 280, and the wicked temperature of 135 is way lower than 135. Suggesting that people are going to hit to a dry hit, to save a drop is silly. I can also start to tell when my wick is getting low.

Here is something that is pretty easy to measure. The coil color. Raw, its bright red. With a wet wick, its not. That should convince you that the temperatures are much lower. If I put a heat sink on top of a CPU, it get a lower temperature also.

The data and video show conclusively that the temperature of the liquid is far below the 280C.

So your best case scenario, the ECF warning should have said. "Don't keep inhaling a dry burnt up wick" And who on earth, needs that as a warning??

 

[GargoyleK1]

All I know is vaping is better than smoking…

And thats all I have to say about that.

 

[buffaloguy]

Tom my comments on the coil heat have zero to do with what ecf did. The discussion has been whether or not there is any validity to the reports which should be considered. In this case the idea of an infrared thermometer is wrong. Its flat out inaccurate and if you read the document I posted it says so. The heat inside a coil is likely much hotter than you are thinking.... especially with different wicking materials. One material might refill faster than another. Capillary action of mesh is not the same as cotton, as rayon, ceramic, etc. As that liquid vaporizes, how fast does it refill, how hot does the core temperature get?

"Ideally you would use infrared thermometers to temp the surface of hot oil, a cast iron skillet, a saute pan, even chocolate and soup." A skillets surface area will give a more accurate reading than a tiny coil. How much of the surrounding surface area is being read aside from the coil. How much is the vapor when firing a wet coil interfering with readings?

Im not naysaying anyone or trying to discredit anything but if its inaccurate, its inaccurate. The temp inside the coil matters just as much as the surface temp... and the surface temps likely arent accurate either with an infrared gun. Read the info I posted. Its all there. You either didnt read that pdf or you only saw what you wanted to.

All Im trying to do here is give the best info and knowledge I have. There are more accurate ways to measure these things and those measurements do matter to answer safety questions for all vapers.

I have said its likely that we are in a safe range as long as a coil stays wet. However a coil does dry after its been fired. It needs time rewick liquids. Rda's dont work via vacum pressure. They rely on capillary action. Its very feasable that the temps of both the juice and the coil get sequentially hotter with each firing of the coil. Maybe they dont... the question is... do you know for sure? No. No one does right now. Can we figure it out? Yes. But there are right and wrong ways to do it. Saying "oh those results are good enough for me" to validate our views and putting it to bed doesnt mean the info is right even if it appears to be so.

We can stick our heads in the sand and just be mad at ecf, call it fear mongering, and antz pandering all we like.... or somehow prove it wrong. Aiming a infrared thermometer at at a small coil (the size of a large ant at best) is not accurate and testing to disprove ecf will likely be shot down based on it by any scientist including people like Dr. F.

I realize this thread is about being pissed off at ecf. Maybe the discussion on whether or not the info we are pissed at them for should be in its own thread but I believe its related ina large way. If you just wanna be pissed off at ecf and not find some logic to discredit it then Ill just shut up.

Lastly, we all know vapers who let coils get dry, or drier than they should. You might not, and I might not but the vast majority vaping are clueless and wouldnt know a loose coil if they stared at it. People involved in communities like this learn these kinds of things. Most dont even know ecf or vu even exist.

Everything you posted supports that he got accurate readings.
It says "Ideally you would use infrared thermometers to temp the surface of hot oil, a cast iron skillet, a saute pan, even chocolate and soup." So it should get an excellent reading of the coil, and the wick. In the video he got tow readings when trying to do the wick. 70 and 135, The higher is most likely the coil, the surrounding wick would be the 70. Regardless the highest temperature he got was 135, the rest of the temps would be lower, the Coil is on top.
I suppose I could poke an electronic meat thermometer in middle of the wick, but I don't think the data is gonna be significantly different.

The key points are the total temperature of the raw wick was 295, the critical temperature is 280, and the wicked temperature of 135 is way lower than 135. Suggesting that people are going to hit to a dry hit, to save a drop is silly. I can also start to tell when my wick is getting low.

Here is something that is pretty easy to measure. The coil color. Raw, its bright red. With a wet wick, its not. That should convince you that the temperatures are much lower. If I put a heat sink on top of a CPU, it get a lower temperature also.

The data and video show conclusively that the temperature of the liquid is far below the 280C.

So your best case scenario, the ECF warning should have said. "Don't keep inhaling a dry burnt up wick" And who on earth, needs that as a warning??

 

[tombaker]

Lastly, we all know vapers who let coils get dry, or drier than they should. You might not, and I might not but the vast majority vaping are clueless and wouldnt know a loose coil if they stared at it. People involved in communities like this learn these kinds of things. Most dont even know ecf or vu even exist.

I disagree that most vapers are clueless. Especially those who are building coils. And they are more likely to either have read up on it, or have friends, or work with a store. I know the store close to me, they rebuild coils, and then the customers restuff the wicks, until they need a rebuild again. I don't consider someone clueless who goes to a mechanic to get a job done.

ECF put out information, and is putting out information to anyone who does a Google search, that Sub-Ohm vaping creates a Toxins and Cancerous Vape. That irresponsible because its hype, and fear without support. People in the vaping community have addressed these concerns. And the data they are using, is based on burning E-Liquids on Silica, and extrapolating it onto Sub-Ohms and cotton.

Do you know that the burning point of cotton is around 175C. The I have seen a range from 120C to 210 for clothing. Cotton in a wick on a RBA could be entirely self limiting. If you wick burns to dust after 210, how is it going to keep wicking to 280. The thing is we know what the wicks look like after Sub-Ohming, we can pull out the wick and see if is been fried at 280C, or if the airflow and the juice have kept the wick far coiler. And the result is far cooler.

There is no evidence.....NONE, that Sub-Ohm Vape is different than normal vape.​

You have to be able to get to 100 mph to have 100mph risks when driving. You theory of a temperature probe problem, is like saying a trained Cop can not estimate speed without a Radar Gun. They can. The temperatures measured are 150 C in the gap. Maybe the probe was off by 20 C. But you can not just say, I don't trust technology, it could be really way off, wait until someone checks.

The video posted here, has a person who is very responsible, and knowledgeable who has done the research and math. Your critique of it, saying its innacurate, is what I find at fault. Perhaps you can come up with some variances, but those variance are not of a size that can overcome the final conclusions. You can dance along and say you want to see some sort of study, and that is fine, but you have solid testing right now. The only thing you have to say about the testing is that the temperature device used is not to your liking.

I read your links, and nothing in them suggested that the temp sensor used in the video was not appropriate. You want to measure the middle of the wick inside the coil, while the coil is on. Thats fine, but its not going to change what we see and observe, in the test. And with common sense.

The video shows and reflect that the temperatures must be approaching 280C at the juice level, to create the problem levels. I don't see how you can speculate or show that that is happening. I am saying even the speculation of the how it could happen, is being shot down with testing.

Maybe you have another scenerio, but what is it? When I look at the coil on an open RBA, with wick, and juice, and see it hit, I see vapor, and I don't see a huge glowing Coil......The Coil Must be being coiled.

Attention Do not dry hit as a common practice when you vape. Anyone thinking that needs to be a warning, is more clueless than the clueless vapers they hope to protect. Cotton is likely self limiting to temperature, vs Silica. No wickie, no vapie

 

[buffaloguy]

Im glad your friends walk into vape shops and get education Tom but the vast majority of vapers are new, and are clueless. By the way, there are plenty of "experts" running shops that have been vaping themselves less than a year. I watched a shop owner just two days ago wrap a .4ohm coil for an rda that had a batt in it rated at 2 amps. So no I dont agree with you they arent clueless. The people around forums might be more educated but dont sit there and say you dont see confusion and misinformation every single day. They dont know why their rig tastes acrid and like crap. Most of them think the battery is at fault. We will differ our opinions here. Thats fine. Different issue.

You are flat out wrong on thinking those are accurate readings and the stack of writing Ive seen on it.... and even the info I did provide... says so. You arent reading what is written about IR then. The very first two pages of that PDF alone tell you why its inaccurate... later in the pdf it clearly states its not advised to use IR as a basis for determining internal temps and they are likely far different...and you say you read it? Also, I never attacked anyones credability I said his methodology was wrong, and it is.

Tom you forget one thing... one single spot on a coil could reach temps above 280... it doesnt take a whole coil to do that. And that alone can expose you to things like acrolein. You might not even taste it that much... and thats the problem.

"There is no evidence.....NONE, that Sub-Ohm Vape is different than normal vape." And theres no evidence it isnt different. But now that there is maybe a wobbly shred of evidence it might be different you wanna trash it? I dont understand that logic. We should either discredit it with correct science (thermocoupling and different ohm and wick types at varying voltages) or admit that we dont know the answer. And since you and I both dont know... wtf are we griping about? Its a warning, not the apocalypse.

Look you can defend the methodology to death but belief and faith doesnt make it so. And the plain fact is you dont know if ecf is right or wrong, but you are mad about it anyways. No one knows if they are right or wrong. Your interpretation of it, and mine, as to why they posted it could both be wrong. You've made up your mind though so Ill shut up and let you win this one cause Im clearly stupid and ignorant and on ecf's side... smdh.

All I tried to do was bring knowledge. Have at it Its your show.

 

[Rapture]

I disagree that most vapers are clueless. Especially those who are building coils. And they are more likely to either have read up on it, or have friends, or work with a store. I know the store close to me, they rebuild coils, and then the customers restuff the wicks, until they need a rebuild again. I don't consider someone clueless who goes to a mechanic to get a job done.

ECF put out information, and is putting out information to anyone who does a Google search, that Sub-Ohm vaping creates a Toxins and Cancerous Vape. That irresponsible because its hype, and fear without support. People in the vaping community have addressed these concerns. And the data they are using, is based on burning E-Liquids on Silica, and extrapolating it onto Sub-Ohms and cotton.

Do you know that the burning point of cotton is around 175C. The I have seen a range from 120C to 210 for clothing. Cotton in a wick on a RBA could be entirely self limiting. If you wick burns to dust after 210, how is it going to keep wicking to 280. The thing is we know what the wicks look like after Sub-Ohming, we can pull out the wick and see if is been fried at 280C, or if the airflow and the juice have kept the wick far coiler. And the result is far cooler.

There is no evidence.....NONE, that Sub-Ohm Vape is different than normal vape.​

You have to be able to get to 100 mph to have 100mph risks when driving. You theory of a temperature probe problem, is like saying a trained Cop can not estimate speed without a Radar Gun. They can. The temperatures measured are 150 C in the gap. Maybe the probe was off by 20 C. But you can not just say, I don't trust technology, it could be really way off, wait until someone checks.

The video posted here, has a person who is very responsible, and knowledgeable who has done the research and math. Your critique of it, saying its innacurate, is what I find at fault. Perhaps you can come up with some variances, but those variance are not of a size that can overcome the final conclusions. You can dance along and say you want to see some sort of study, and that is fine, but you have solid testing right now. The only thing you have to say about the testing is that the temperature device used is not to your liking.

I read your links, and nothing in them suggested that the temp sensor used in the video was not appropriate. You want to measure the middle of the wick inside the coil, while the coil is on. Thats fine, but its not going to change what we see and observe, in the test. And with common sense.

The video shows and reflect that the temperatures must be approaching 280C at the juice level, to create the problem levels. I don't see how you can speculate or show that that is happening. I am saying even the speculation of the how it could happen, is being shot down with testing.

Maybe you have another scenerio, but what is it? When I look at the coil on an open RBA, with wick, and juice, and see it hit, I see vapor, and I don't see a huge glowing Coil......The Coil Must be being coiled.

Attention Do not dry hit as a common practice when you vape. Anyone thinking that needs to be a warning, is more clueless than the clueless vapers they hope to protect. Cotton is likely self limiting to temperature, vs Silica. No wickie, no vapie

Until I see other tests being done I to feel as the infrared is a good estimate and starting point.

Never thought about the temp cotton burns at. I wonder if this holds true for wet cotton as well.

Another idea is to find out the max temp kanthal can get before it glows. I may call temco and see if they have any info. It it's not at 280 we may be safe. I hope that at 280 it would glow therefore showing a wet coil won't get hot enough to worry.

 

[tombaker]

Im glad your friends walk into vape shops and get education Tom but the vast majority of vapers are new, and are clueless. By the way, there are plenty of "experts" running shops that have been vaping themselves less than a year. I watched a shop owner just two days ago wrap a .4ohm coil for an rda that had a batt in it rated at 2 amps. So no I dont agree with you they arent clueless. The people around forums might be more educated but dont sit there and say you dont see confusion and misinformation every single day. They dont know why their rig tastes acrid and like crap. Most of them think the battery is at fault. We will differ our opinions here. Thats fine. Different issue.

You are flat out wrong on thinking those are accurate readings and the stack of writing Ive seen on it.... and even the info I did provide... says so. You arent reading what is written about IR then. The very first two pages of that PDF alone tell you why its inaccurate... later in the pdf it clearly states its not advised to use IR as a basis for determining internal temps and they are likely far different...and you say you read it? Also, I never attacked anyones credability I said his methodology was wrong, and it is.

Tom you forget one thing... one single spot on a coil could reach temps above 280... it doesnt take a whole coil to do that. And that alone can expose you to things like acrolein. You might not even taste it that much... and thats the problem.

Look you can defend the methodology to death but belief and faith doesnt make it so. And the plain fact is you dont know if ecf is right or wrong, but you are mad about it anyways. No one knows if they are right or wrong. Your interpretation of it, and mine, as to why they posted it could both be wrong. You've made up your mind though. Far be from anyone to give perspective or information you dont agree with on principle, and that arent facts you can twist to validate your judgement. But Ill shut up and let you win this one cause Im clearly stupid and ignorant and on ecf's side... smdh.

All I tried to do was bring knowledge. You wanna ignore the obvious. Have at it.

The knowledge you brought, was citing papers that confirm the temperature checks of the top surface of the coil was accurate. You have speculation that the inside of the coil, against the wet wick is going to be hotter. I don't see the logic there. The least cooling is the outside of the coil. Again the color of the coil with wet wick is not hotter than no wick, evidence by the color. The max temp his test gave for the coil was 295C. You need 280, and clearly the wet wick is significantly cooling the wick. 150C cooler by his tests. A better temp sensor is not going to have a 150C error shown. Is that the theory, that the Temp check was 150C off? Or is his 135C total temp in the ball park?

I read the links you gave, and I don't see any of it supporting that the temperature reading were not "on base" and good. The instrument is being appropriately used.

When you say no one knows if ECF is right or wrong. I disagree, the testing shows they are wrong, and the evidence of users in their tasting and own builds show its wrong. But lets go all the way over to your contentions. ECF does not know if they are right or wrong. But they are taking out a huge warning to everyone saying that Sub-Ohming is dangerous. And they have no evidence to show it. And the evidence done by the community has suggested that their proposition and their warning is incorrect.

I did not create this ECF site warning. They did. I think its been shown the warning has no proof, is just speculation. And speculation that has already been tested, and shown to be wrong. ECF has a thread dismantling the claims of the warning, and Rolygate never responded.

You have not brought knowledge, your brought questions you did not know the answers to, and you brought questions to the testing that was done, with your only contradiction to the methods, that you did not like the thermometer brand.

Vape from Sub-Ohms is the same as other Vape, it just produces more of it. Its not inherently dangerous like ECF says. Anyone rebuilding their own can screw up a build, but the warning is not against bad builds, its against all forms of Sub-Ohming.

 

[Hermit]

For me this isn't about hating on ECF -all they did was read something and decide to put up a warning - it's about whether what they read has any validity.

For the study that linked high wattage to formaldehyde production it seems clear to me that the methodology was flawed, simply upping the wattage on a coil that worked fine at lower wattage. An average vaper would've noticed the burnt taste and reduced the wattage, even an inexperienced one ... witness the number of threads that appear along the lnes of: "why can't I go above N watts without it tasting burnt?"

The studies that could be done fall into two areas: what happens under various particular circumstances, and then statistically how many vapers fall into each category defined by the first step.

To my mind there is no doubt that sub-ohming can be just as safe as low wattage vaping. I'm also pretty sure that a far higher proportion of those who do it, at least know roughly what they're doing, compared to vapers generally. But for now I'm more interested in the boundaries of the categories (safe sub-ohm, unsafe sub-ohm, safe high-ohm, etce, etc) than the statistics - we can't begin to guess at those until we know the limits of each category!

 

[VapedCrusader]

bottom line

 

[buffaloguy]

Tom your opinions and basis of facts FOR the temp readings are wrong. The documentation I provided says so... you keep saying it doesnt. We must be reading two different things... Did you read the PDF I attached to my earlier post? Did you do a google search on the limits of an IR gun or whether it reads surrounding ambient air temps when metering small objects? No, I dont think you have. You could not possibly come to positive conclusion you are right, if you had objectively researched it.... even just a little like I did.

Saying the documents I did provide validate your arguement here is just flat out fallicy.

Ill walk ya thru one last time why I have said FIVE different times the information I found (and much more if you simply do a Google search) says that the thermometer readings of the top of the coil CANNOT be correct because of two reasons:

Mainly 1) The coil size is too small relative to the field of view of ANY IR gun. (Note: I never mentioned brand of gun once. I said ANY IR gun.) I even gave an example of trying to IR an ant and what the field of view of an IR gun is too large. Even if you hold it directly over top of the coil the F.O.V. is still too large. Also the reason you arec ombining ambient air temps with your readings and possibily throwing them off by ALOT. But you have cometely ignored that fact.

Additionally, 2) Interference from vapor particulate on a fired coil also plays a role. How much? I dont know. Hence why you need a different device. Anything different than the ambient air temp in the IR'S F.O.V. will screw the results. Particulate matter in the F.O.V. which VAPOR IS will screw the results.

All of this is documented FACT. Period.

You keep saying "it aint so" and its an accurate reading, but its not. If you have researched it you are only reading what you want to out of it. There is plenty of information on what IR gun can and cannot to and what their limitations are. You are ignoring it. You also wanna ignore variables like different wicking methods or coil build, capillary action, and other things that must be accounted for.

Let me point out.... I didnt just say its inaccurate and walk away.... I also offered a solution to properly test. A thermocouple. You have ignored that as well.

All you seem to wanna do is say "oh its common sense" based of FALLABLE results... Well science doesnt work that way. But you believe what you like as long as it suits your judgement and makes you happy. You are completely entitled to your opinion. But that is what it is.

Im interested in facts. Not opinions. But Ive decided that Im going to stay out of political discussions on VU from now on. There's no convincing the already convinced that their might be a better way. Forget we even had this discussion and carry on. Its not my thread. Im out.

The knowledge you brought, was citing papers that confirm the temperature checks of the top surface of the coil was accurate. You have speculation that the inside of the coil, against the wet wick is going to be hotter. I don't see the logic there. The least cooling is the outside of the coil. Again the color of the coil with wet wick is not hotter than no wick, evidence by the color. The max temp his test gave for the coil was 295C. You need 280, and clearly the wet wick is significantly cooling the wick. 150C cooler by his tests. A better temp sensor is not going to have a 150C error shown. Is that the theory, that the Temp check was 150C off? Or is his 135C total temp in the ball park?

I read the links you gave, and I don't see any of it supporting that the temperature reading were not "on base" and good. The instrument is being appropriately used.

When you say no one knows if ECF is right or wrong. I disagree, the testing shows they are wrong, and the evidence of users in their tasting and own builds show its wrong. But lets go all the way over to your contentions. ECF does not know if they are right or wrong. But they are taking out a huge warning to everyone saying that Sub-Ohming is dangerous. And they have no evidence to show it. And the evidence done by the community has suggested that their proposition and their warning is incorrect.

I did not create this ECF site warning. They did. I think its been shown the warning has no proof, is just speculation. And speculation that has already been tested, and shown to be wrong. ECF has a thread dismantling the claims of the warning, and Rolygate never responded.

You have not brought knowledge, your brought questions you did not know the answers to, and you brought questions to the testing that was done, with your only contradiction to the methods, that you did not like the thermometer brand.

Vape from Sub-Ohms is the same as other Vape, it just produces more of it. Its not inherently dangerous like ECF says. Anyone rebuilding their own can screw up a build, but the warning is not against bad builds, its against all forms of Sub-Ohming.

 

[Rapture]

My coils are way bigger than an ant. 24 gauge 8 wrap at about .35. They are about 5mm long and 4mm OD and 3mm ID. So I will be measuring these over and over again with the laser pointed at different parts of the atomizer and take the highest reading. I will also measure some other things.

All we really need to know is how hot kanthal can get before it glows. If it's over 280c bad. If it's under 280 good. Since coils don't glow with juice.

Also what about an infrared camera with a temp scale

 

[Cessnapix]

Gotta be at least one lawyer involved with this.

Possibly the owners of ECF are pulling in some serious bucks (something that they and others have accused VJ of and deem it wrong for him to get some mod money out of running this forum and his deal alert) and need an attorney to write all of this crap so they don't get sued when some idiot decides to build a sub ohm coil out of depleted uranium wire in a home built RBA made out of an old tin can powered by wiring it directly into the main breaker panel of their house.

I think you hit the nail right on the head

 

[Rapture]

Let me start off by saying I am not a scientist only a mod maker and fellow vaper. I am not trying to prove or disprove anything. The testing I have done is only meant for "me" to get an idea of the differences in temperatures of my builds, wattage, and dry coil glow color. I am not claiming these test are 100% accurate. I am just sharing this with you guys and you can take it how you want.

I got my temp gun today. I have pretty much gotten the same results of the video posted above. This was not meant to give an exact temp of the wet coils, it was meant to get a rough idea of how hot coils get when they are glowing orange at different wattages.

So at 120 WATTS!!! The highest reading I got was 318c. They were glowing very bright orange real quick. I did a lot of readings at different distances from 12 inches to the coil almost touching the lens.

Guess what, at the lowest setting of around 30 watts if I held the button down for a few seconds the temps were just high. So in my opinion sub ohm vaping just vaporizes the juice faster and due to lung inhales and big airholes huge clouds occur.

I also measured the posts and deck to see if i was actually reading on the coils and those were considerably lower.

During these testing I had the gun infrared reader like all up in the coil. I don't see how it could read anything else.

I was also trying to get reading of the point in which the coils were just below glowing which was roughly 150c - 200c

I did a reading on my skin as a test and it was 34c.

The results of the wet coil test were probably screwed from the vapor but the highest reading I got was 116c at around 90 watts.

I would venture to guess at a worse case scenario the wet coils could reach 200c WITHOUT airflow. This is because that was around the highest temp I got of a non glowing coil.

Take my info how you want but I don't know about you guys but I feel considerably better now.

 

[KKen]

I would have to think more vapor inhalation = more noticeable effects in the long term. Whether the effects are hazardous or not, jury is still out.

Vaping is a smoking alternative, an alternative that is deemed a risk reduction, but it is still a risk.

There are warnings on cigarettes that say it may cause cancer, emphysema, birth defects, ect… but people still smoke them nonetheless.

Sub ohm danger warnings are just warnings, you can make your own decision to pursue it or not based on the evidence you perceive credible or not. If new users believe sub ohming too dangerous to try based on the ECF postings, then so be it, I could care less.

Ammunition for FDA? Unlikely, they can make their own ammunition as we move along; they are not going to discern one style of vaping over another. Vaping to the FDA is vaping.

You know, who knows, it may be found that vaping higher resistance coils produce different toxins than the lower resistance coils that are more harmful, or maybe not. Would a high res vaper switch to sub ohm based on that probability?

 

[Smoky Blue]

just food for thought..

we do have people that have vaped for many years now.. one would think if there was any health concerns..
don't you think they would have told by now?

 

[Rapture]

The only way I see sub ohm vaping being any more risky than regular vaping is inhaling bigger volumes of the potentially risky vapor. Like as in more mls of e juice at a lower nic than a regular vaper who would vape half as much juice at double the strength. But what's normal anyways?

 

[KKen]

just food for thought..

we do have people that have vaped for many years now.. one would think if there was any health concerns..
don't you think they would have told by now?

True, if we are talking about immediate reactions, but keep in mind people have smoked cigs for over 30+ years before they developed tumors or other problems. There is a possibility that the vaping effects wont be noticeable on a mass scale until maybe 10, 15 or even more years down the line.

One thing for sure, I'm glad to know that it will be much easier for me to quit vaping than it was for cigarettes should it be proven that vaping has serious health consequences. I couldn't go more than an hour before getting some pretty mean cravings for a smoke, whereas now, I've actually gone a few days without a vape, an no crankiness, nervousness or cravings like I used to experience with cigs.

As Rapture pointed out, the obvious risk I see given the facts, or lack of, is that you are simply taking in larger volumes of vaporized e-juice . There are other factors to this as well, such as the "cleanliness" of the juice brand you are using as well as the kinds of wicking material you chose to use.

Could it be possible that vaping silica stands could lead to Mesothelioma? How about cotton? Or bleached polyester or rayon? Why focus only on sub-ohm and not the variety of juices and wicks?

For me, this holds more of a valid concern than whether I chose to vape at over 1ohm or under.

 

[Smoky Blue]

totally agree with you @kke

and to see how ecigs have advanced.. i really hope they can figure it all out..
that more testing can be done. We have all these fine research labs and chemists..
I hope they will not give up the fight..

 

[tombaker]

Tom your opinions and basis of facts FOR the temp readings are wrong. The documentation I provided says so... you keep saying it doesnt. We must be reading two different things... Did you read the PDF I attached to my earlier post? Did you do a google search on the limits of an IR gun or whether it reads surrounding ambient air temps when metering small objects? No, I dont think you have. You could not possibly come to positive conclusion you are right, if you had objectively researched it.... even just a little like I did.

Saying the documents I did provide validate your arguement here is just flat out fallicy.

Ill walk ya thru one last time why I have said FIVE different times the information I found (and much more if you simply do a Google search) says that the thermometer readings of the top of the coil CANNOT be correct because of two reasons:

Mainly 1) The coil size is too small relative to the field of view of ANY IR gun. (Note: I never mentioned brand of gun once. I said ANY IR gun.) I even gave an example of trying to IR an ant and what the field of view of an IR gun is too large. Even if you hold it directly over top of the coil the F.O.V. is still too large. Also the reason you arec ombining ambient air temps with your readings and possibily throwing them off by ALOT. But you have cometely ignored that fact.

Additionally, 2) Interference from vapor particulate on a fired coil also plays a role. How much? I dont know. Hence why you need a different device. Anything different than the ambient air temp in the IR'S F.O.V. will screw the results. Particulate matter in the F.O.V. which VAPOR IS will screw the results.

All of this is documented FACT. Period.

You keep saying "it aint so" and its an accurate reading, but its not. If you have researched it you are only reading what you want to out of it. There is plenty of information on what IR gun can and cannot to and what their limitations are. You are ignoring it. You also wanna ignore variables like different wicking methods or coil build, capillary action, and other things that must be accounted for.

Let me point out.... I didnt just say its inaccurate and walk away.... I also offered a solution to properly test. A thermocouple. You have ignored that as well.

All you seem to wanna do is say "oh its common sense" based of FALLABLE results... Well science doesnt work that way. But you believe what you like as long as it suits your judgement and makes you happy. You are completely entitled to your opinion. But that is what it is.

Im interested in facts. Not opinions. But Ive decided that Im going to stay out of political discussions on VU from now on. There's no convincing the already convinced that their might be a better way. Forget we even had this discussion and carry on. Its not my thread. Im out.

Okay so if we boil it down, is you think all the work done by individuals that are skilled, and the equipment they used, you believe they are unable to get valid results, because you lay speculation and reading of various items, make you believe the resulting temperature readings are so far out of whack they can overcome a 150C hurdle.

I have read you links, I don't see they support your claim that reading were not correct. I think they are easily in the +/- 10% range AT WORSE CASE. I actually thing they only a few degrees off, if anything, but lets say they are off by a huge amount 20 C. Its not even close to being a the level Pegassis explained with his research.

I think you are wrong. I think the temperatures he took were accurate. But thats all you got, and sure you won't convince me otherwise. Heck I can read stuff like http://support.fluke.com/raytek-sales/Download/Asset/IR_THEORY_55514_ENG_REVB_LR.PDF and I still won't believe YOUR CONCLUSIONS are correct on the temperatures not being valid, or useable.

It is common sense to understand a glowing coil is temp X, and a much colder coil, is not glowing. Touch a tiny sewing needle to a hot coil, the coil cools because of the heat sink created, quickly stops glowing read at the contact point. I also think a touch thermometer would have worse results. A thermocouple would likely be the wrong tool, and that is my view also.

If you think there is enough concern to post a forum global warning, so be it. I think you just don't have the evidence, or logic, to support a claim like that.....and if all of it was so true, you would taste the burnt result during normal vaping. A raw coils is just slightly above the 280C, and we know for certain the wicked wet coil, is much cooler.

 

[Hermit]

If you think there is enough concern to post a forum global warning, so be it. I think you just don't have the evidence, or logic, to support a claim like that.....and if all of it was so true, you would taste the burnt result during normal vaping. A raw coils is just slightly above the 280C, and we know for certain the wicked wet coil, is much cooler.

Funny thing is, all that was posted by rolygate 6 months ago! (and that may well have been partially a repost).

There's nothing different about sub-ohm, per-se. Another example, I just dug into a thread about a 0.3 ohm build. It was 4 strands of 28 gauge in parallel, 4 or 5 wraps - so essentially, that's simply 4 fairly standard super-ohm coils, 1.2 ohms each. Assuming wicking to be sufficient, that's not going to be any higher temperature than a single 1.2 ohm coil.

Fraunhofer Institute reckons e-cigs typically operate at 65 to 120 deg C, BTW. That's certainly a wide enough range for us to sense the difference between a cool and a hot vape, and even the high end of that is well under the temperature for producing acrolein. As for formaldehyde, I don't know - what temp does that get produced at?

 

[Rapture]

I don't know anything about formaldehyde. Anyone else know what are the temps needed to formaldehyde to occur.

 

[Rapture]

"Adding heat, however, does not always increase the temperature. For instance, when water is boiling, adding heat does not increase its temperature. This happens at the boiling temperature of every substance that can vaporize. At the boiling temperature, adding heat energy converts the liquid into a gas WITHOUT RAISING THE TEMPERATURE.

http://hop.concord.org/h1/phys/h1p.html

 

[5150sick]

"The vapors from an ecigarette contains Formaldehyde; this chemical is toxic as well as being listed as a carcinogen." Now....read this statement again. You see the information before you. Now I ask this...just how much formaldehyde is in the vapor??? THIS is what big pharma and tobacco lobbyist DON'T want you to ask. They want you to think tons and tons of formaldehyde being absorbed into your lungs causing immediate sprouting of cancer cells like popcorn in hot oil. They DON'T want you to go and read the reports for yourself. They don't want an educated population disputing their statements. The statement above is a misleading TRUE statement...there IS formaldehyde in ecig vapors, BUT the AMOUNT is so small that it is BARELY DETECTABLE in the lab results, thus the lab's labeling of the quantity as "negligible". The statement is true but all of the information is NOT there for people to make an educated judgement. They want you to make a knee-jerk reaction. NOW...get out on the net and FIND the lab studies and toxicology reports. Learn what an LD50 and a PPM is. Learn what acute and chronic exposures and 8 hour time weighted averages are (TWA). Learn these, then ASK these people putting out this information, "Where is the report?". Find it, read it then put things in their proper perspective. If people that had the same public exposures as these statement-spewing idiots would get educated, these fires would be put out so quickly that there would not be enough time to excite everyone into a circle-jerk over what they call a dragon when it's really a bunny! BUT...I know...the media and what they want to publish...durn. <rant off>

There also IS Formaldehyde in regular non smokers' human breath: http://www.churnmag.com/news/scientists-find-ecig-toxins-regular-human-breath/

 

[5150sick]

DW uses a an awful smelling possibly tobacco blend last time I saw him lol!
I tried it and it tasted as bad as it smelled to me.
C.B.

So in reality he uses tobacco FLAVOERD juice but doesn't agree with FLAVORS??? LOL

 

[5150sick]

Ding Ding.. we have a winner!

My post on ECF (which I'll probably get banned for):


The only problem I see is these evil senators surely do not know the difference between a .25ohm coil or a 2.5ohm coil.

It would be safe to say that they don't even care.

But I can guarantee 100% that they have people on this forum reading these posts.

We start saying that ANY form of vaping is unsafe and it will be taken out of context and the next headline in USA today will read:

"12 Senators warn that Even professional ecigarette users say that ecigarettes cause cancer"

These people are saying right now that unflavored nic base at 60mg/ml is being vaped as regular eliquid!!!

Does anybody reading this seriously think that the Antz and Senators care about ohms law???
Or do they care about spinning this into something evil??

They (Evil Senators & ANTZ) ARE in here reading these posts daily. You are kidding yourselves if you think they are not!

 

[5150sick]

The obvious difference between "regular vaping" (whatever the fuck that is? 1.5 to 2.5 ohms maybe?) and sub ohm vaping:

"regular vaping" - Taking a 4 to 8 second draw of 50/50 VG/PG 12 - 24mg nic at 8 to 12 watts
Sub Ohm vaping - Taking a 1 to 2 second draw of 80/20 VG/PG 0 - 6mg nic at 20 to 50 watts

So would the 8 second draw of 24mg nic at 12 watts be better or worse for you than the 1 second draw of 0mg nic at 30 watts?

 

[tombaker]

Funny thing is, all that was posted by rolygate 6 months ago! (and that may well have been partially a repost).

There's nothing different about sub-ohm, per-se. Another example, I just dug into a thread about a 0.3 ohm build. It was 4 strands of 28 gauge in parallel, 4 or 5 wraps - so essentially, that's simply 4 fairly standard super-ohm coils, 1.2 ohms each. Assuming wicking to be sufficient, that's not going to be any higher temperature than a single 1.2 ohm coil.

Fraunhofer Institute reckons e-cigs typically operate at 65 to 120 deg C, BTW. That's certainly a wide enough range for us to sense the difference between a cool and a hot vape, and even the high end of that is well under the temperature for producing acrolein. As for formaldehyde, I don't know - what temp does that get produced at?

Funny thing is, all that was posted by rolygate 6 months ago! (and that may well have been partially a repost).

There's nothing different about sub-ohm, per-se. Another example, I just dug into a thread about a 0.3 ohm build. It was 4 strands of 28 gauge in parallel, 4 or 5 wraps - so essentially, that's simply 4 fairly standard super-ohm coils, 1.2 ohms each. Assuming wicking to be sufficient, that's not going to be any higher temperature than a single 1.2 ohm coil.

Fraunhofer Institute reckons e-cigs typically operate at 65 to 120 deg C, BTW. That's certainly a wide enough range for us to sense the difference between a cool and a hot vape, and even the high end of that is well under the temperature for producing acrolein. As for formaldehyde, I don't know - what temp does that get produced at?

Another amazing find Hermit. In his earlier post the ECF owner contradicts his later sticked warning. Specifically he said:

Atomisers normally run at 60 - 70 C. If it is deliberately run dry (or runs dry as a result of faulty protocols such as inverted operation) then it will climb to 300 C or more. No human can possibly inhale the product of such faulty operation - smoke is formed by the melting of internal components. To a machine, the result is normal and contains a multitude of toxic compounds. None are present in normal vapour, or are only just detectable (the dose makes the poison). Therefore, a lab test where the atomiser temperature was not constantly monitored is a useless test, since the atomiser might have run out of parameter. Humans stop inhalation when operation goes out of parameter.

and

Acrolein cannot be detected in vapour when supplied as-used by a human operator. It can easily be created when an ecig is run on a test rig in a way that no human would inhale the resulting product (hot, unpleasant dry vapour verging on smoke).​

That is exactly the same arguments and real information that discredit his later warning to all. A legal CYA from ECF is one thing, it quite another to create a false warning, mislead people, and put out information that can be used in the media wrongly.

He could just simply say, all information in this forum is not verified, use at your own risk. If you are not able to accept the risks, do not use this forum. Instead he makes up stuff he clearly understands is false.

 

[travanx]

Im glad your friends walk into vape shops and get education Tom but the vast majority of vapers are new, and are clueless. By the way, there are plenty of "experts" running shops that have been vaping themselves less than a year. I watched a shop owner just two days ago wrap a .4ohm coil for an rda that had a batt in it rated at 2 amps.

I finally met another person from real life who vapes and was chatting in a game with him about it. I asked what ohm he is using on his Nemesis mod and he didn't know. Just said he does a certain amount of wraps a shop owner told him to do. That is also the same way I was introduced to a mech mod from a local store.

What device can be used to accurately measure the inside and outside temperature of a coil? And what can measure what chemicals come off of a dry coil and a wicked coil? I wouldn't mind asking around to see if I can find someone that I know that might have access to this stuff. Probably need some keywords to use to ask though. More out of curiosity than anything.

 

[5150sick]

If Vaping is vaping to the FDA what would stop them for choosing sub ohming to single out?

They could easily trick the general public that sub ohming/cloud chasing is what vaping is and that's why it should be stopped.

The ANTZ have already done 'studies' of bad side effects of vaping by mining information from ECF's "health related" sub forum.

It was debunked because vapers are less likely to report good health results and coughing up black shit for a month has 0% to do with vaping and 100% to do with quitting smoking.

The antz, asshole senators, stan glantz, and everyone else who wants to end vaping are on ECF daily, taking screenshots, looking for people to PAY (No, really. They are offering $15,000 to whoever can prove a confirmed vaping related illness) that had adverse health effects from vaping

It would sure as hell help them with the whole "vaping is dangerous, what about the children" case they are trying to ram down the throats of Americans through mainstream media at the moment.

 

[Puffinstein]

I think the proof is in the pudding. How many of us sub-ohm and feel physically better than we did while smoking cigarettes? Who has contracted cancer from using a sub-ohm coil?

We are exposed to soooo many chemicals and carcinogens on a regular everyday basis that we are unaware of . Sub-ohm builds are the least of our worries.

 

[5150sick]

I understand warning people.
But the ECF warning shouldn't pop up on every single page in the RDA!
Maybe they could have it pop up if someone searches for the word "sub ohm" or if the thread has Sub Ohm/Sub Ohming in the title.
But in the end it's their forum, their rules. No matter if they change them as they go, ban 100 people a day for disagreeing with them, etc...
People are smartening up.

It is pretty stupid to have this warning pop up in every RDA thread but not pop up in the raptor box mod section.

I don't know too many people running a 2.5ohm Protank on a 120watt raptor mod!!!!

 

[KKen]

If Vaping is vaping to the FDA what would stop them for choosing sub ohming to single out?

They could easily trick the general public that sub ohming/cloud chasing is what vaping is and that's why it should be stopped.

The ANTZ have already done 'studies' of bad side effects of vaping by mining information from ECF's "health related" sub forum.

It was debunked because vapers are less likely to report good health results and coughing up black shit for a month has 0% to do with vaping and 100% to do with quitting smoking.

The antz, asshole senators, stan glantz, and everyone else who wants to end vaping are on ECF daily, taking screenshots, looking for people to PAY (No, really. They are offering $15,000 to whoever can prove a confirmed vaping related illness) that had adverse health effects from vaping

It would sure as hell help them with the whole "vaping is dangerous, what about the children" case they are trying to ram down the throats of Americans through mainstream media at the moment.

I was going to reply that it would be impossible for FDA to enforce anything targeted at sub-ohming, while allowing so called "regular" vaping to go on, but then reading on, I see that you are implying that targeting sub-ohm would be the easy shortcut to an all out ban for everything vape related.

That didn't cross my mind at all, and obviously, that didn't cross the minds over at the ECF. So in other words, it appears ECF has only greased the FDA wheels and making it easier for them to get a stronger hold on the ecig industry.

 

[5150sick]

I also have a feeling that an 8 second draw on a protank at 2.5 ohms and 12 watts produces as much heat as a 1 second draw on a dripper at .4 ohms and 40 watts

 

[tombaker]

Worth a remark.....Isn't it remarkable that a thread was allow to just run it way through, to a point where its can be paused and picked up later, if necessary or wanted. People came on, said what they wanted, some said they did not want to participate any longer, and kept on posting, then eventually did stop, when they discovered nobody was just going to close the thread down, because they complained that all Vapors must stick together, close the thread to prove harmony.

The last find by hermit was the icing.....with ECF entirely contradicting their MAJOR WARNING, just 7 months ago.

 

[kelli]

Has anyone noticed that they completely changed the graphical interface to match our forum?

i switched back to the old one

 

[tombaker]

i switched back to the old one

You can do that? Obviously I don't have a login that works anymore.
Also was the Facebook login always there or was that just added. When I created mine it was raw new forum account creation

 

[kelli]

You can do that? Obviously I don't have a login that works anymore.
Also was the Facebook login always there or was that just added. When I created mine it was raw new forum account creation

pretty sure the FB login has been there a long time. i don't use FB tho, so it's a moot point with me.

if you go to the very bottom of the page, there is a place to choose your format. i chose ECF2 and it went back to the way i am used to.

 

[Rapture]

I read last night in nude nicotine website that the flash point of VG is 176 degrees celcius. Being mixed at 80vg 20pg would probably be the reason why I got around 116 in my wet coil reading, since PG has a lower boiling point and probably a lower flash point.

 

[BabyFartsMcGeezax]

There are way too many factors for a health study in the vaping world. Maybe there are some setups (wire, airflow, liquid content) that are completely safe... who knows.

By now, there should've been several studies on the table for the public.. I see it as, why isn't the information published, so rumours can be destroyed...?

 

[Rapture]

As for royalgate, well he didn't look too concerned about acrolein when I saw him at the mall food court eating those Mc Donald's french fries.

 

[VH fan]

Im not convinced that sub ohm vaping is a cancer causing time bomb, and Im not convinced that it isnt. It stands to reason and logic that if you heat a substance at sequentially hotter temp then it can transform into other substances at those varying temps. We know this. Its a part of chemistry.

What I also know is there are so many factors at play here as others have said. What is the type of liquid? High PG? High VG? What type of wire? What type of coil design? What type of wicking media was used? How low into sub ohms did the test go? How does wattage/voltage play its role?

How do we know any one of those pieces changed in any one way will effect every other piece, and change the results/outcome??

I think its entirely fair to be cautious. I think its fair to issue a warning to those sub ohming if even one accurate study (if the study is accurate) shows issues. I think its overkill to plaster it all over the site.

Fact is guys and gals we just dont know. So we cant just flat out say what they are doing is wrong. Especially if later on study after study says its likely to be true.

We already know about acrolein and diacetyl. This is old news.

Ever vape a dry coil? That burnt hit will choke your ass out for a couple minutes and you know i
t. Thats acrolein, formaledhyde (sp sorry), and alot of other nasties. Keep in mind one loosely wrapped coil in your rig can produce ALOT of it and you might barely taste it in the overall vape. A wick not feeding fast enough can produce it too.... regardless of airflow. If a wick is slightly choked out, or the wrong material is used you might be exposed more than someone else will. Think the average vaper knows ANY OF THAT... think again. They dont.

In my mind it makes sense that sub ohming would aggrivate those kinds of situations and make them markedly more toxic. Im not convinced of it, but Im not gonna write it off as some "ECF scare tactic" or "legal protection". I mean why the hell do they care legally? They arent liable for jack or shit. You chose to vape. They didnt put it in your hands. They also never said it was safe and that there are wayyy too many unknowns. Thats all I ever saw there. Thats what I see here too. I think its jumping the gun and premature tho, but its NOT for legal protections.

Dont vape custards. Heck even cinnamon gets a bad rap. Many of us vape flavorings with Triacetin (esp folks that like fruit flavors) which is a plasticizer but it is used for chemical extraction to make flavorings.... it cracks plastic tanks... and we (I do my best not to buy flavorings with triacetin these days) vape it up like labratory crack monkeys. No one even discusses the dangers of it... or if there are? If it melts plastics.... its baaaaad shit! Common sense to me. Dont vape it is my answer.

We need more education and not be complacent on stuff like this. Its valuable info whether we agree with it, or not. I see nothing wrong with ecf being proactive if they feel a study might be even somewhat legit.
Last edited: Jul 22, 2014

Smoke free since Feb 2012. Master VG mixologist and mech/rba enthusiast.


[/QUOTE]


This post is dead on and valuable , criticizing the information as propaganda and scare tactic's is just being ignorant . It is just something to keep in mind , you can believe it or not believe it and if it doesn't matter to you then it doesn't matter to you.

Until much longer and more in depth studies are conducted it's a good idea to just let it go because if it does turn out to have substance many will look the fool.

 

[5150sick]

I understand your point. But the supreme leaders of ECF didn't have to have it pop up in every post. If someone searched for the word sub ohm or it was in the threads title then it would be fine. The guy with the vamo and protank doesn't really need the shit scared out of him while looking for some new juice to try. It may just scare someone back to smoking which would be the opposite of the whole point.

 

[cherrycakes]

Does anyone want to venture to guess the boiling point of an 80VG 20PG mix.

hmmmm this calls for an experiment! **gets out candy thermometer**

LOL jk

 

[UncleRJ]

People over at ECF live in their own bubble and are very out of touch with the vaping community. Its still 2010 for them over there.

Giving them too much credit Joe!

 

[VH fan]

I understand your point. But the supreme leaders of ECF didn't have to have it pop up in every post. If someone searched for the word sub ohm or it was in the threads title then it would be fine. The guy with the vamo and protank doesn't really need the shit scared out of him while looking for some new juice to try. It may just scare someone back to smoking which would be the opposite of the whole point.

I rarely go on that forum so i wouldn't know but if you say they were making it obvious and posting it all over the place i believe you. Now that i would consider a scare tactic.

 

[cherrycakes]

Kind of like the giant warning that pops up every time you go to the diy section?

 

[Myk]

Many of us vape flavorings with Triacetin (esp folks that like fruit flavors) which is a plasticizer but it is used for chemical extraction to make flavorings.... it cracks plastic tanks... and we (I do my best not to buy flavorings with triacetin these days) vape it up like labratory crack monkeys. No one even discusses the dangers of it... or if there are? If it melts plastics.... its baaaaad shit! Common sense to me. Dont vape it is my answer.

Just because something melts plastic doesn't mean it harms human tissue.
It would be nice to know the answers. So would someone start killing some rats already? That's the only way we're going to know (besides waiting 50 years).
Sorry PETA members but animal testing is how it's done. Plus it's just good clean fun.

 

[cherrycakes]

I'd be more concerned about vaping the melted plastic
rather than the tank cracker anyway

Fuck plastic get glass

 

[BigNasty]

I'd be more concerned about vaping the melted plastic
rather than the tank cracker anyway

Fuck plastic get glass

EXACTLY!!
has anyone tested the melted plastic and wicks from china and the BT cigalikes for the break down of their chemical make up yet?

 

[MrFixIt]

Well here it is again. I started vapping to quit tobacco products because I knew that smoking was killing me. Not for one minute did I think that vapping would be 100% safe. That being said how long has the world at large been vaporizing e liquid?

Long enough I think that if byproducts produced from heating it up were going to cause us serious problems it would have been noticed by someone by now? I am absolutely certain that vapping is way safer than burning leaves to get nicotine. I'm also positive that nicotine has some beneficial effects on us. Sub ohming came about as a natural progression to get more flavor and vapor to satisfy what we were missing from giving up tobacco based units. Some do just because they like showing off, my cloud is bigger than your cloud.

Had we not gone in that direction I feel some of the awesome mods and rba's/rda's wouldn't exist today. I now have discovered that the current flood of regulated devices allow us to vape at traditional ohm levels with sub ohm results. So if it turns out that a coil lower than 2 ohms is creating something not so good the sub ohm crowd can still get their fill of vast clouds. Information is a good thing but an over the top Warning! Warning! Will Robinson! head line does nothing but cause an unneeded panic especially for new vappers. Hell what do I know, I'm just a former 2 pack a day smoker who can now walk up a flight of stairs without his face turning red and barely able to catch his breath.

Whose health has improved in multiple areas. I forget though that's not a peer reviewed officially sanctioned diagnoses so I guess it doesn't count.