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ECF (its owners) warns on Sub-Ohming and MODs, says likely causes Cancer, Toxins, Explosions, Fires
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Rapture
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"Many commercial brass and copper cleaning products contain formaldehyde and other harsh chemical ingredients that release harmful fumes known to irritate respiratory systems and cause other short- and long-term health problems"
I don't see ECF putting advisories up on cleaning brass or copper mods. Some people clean them daily
I don't see ECF putting advisories up on cleaning brass or copper mods. Some people clean them daily
Rapture
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Completely Agee. All it takes is smoker that's thinking of switchin to ecigs to see the word vape, toxic, and carcinogen in the same sentence and be completely turned off and never think twice about switching to vaping.
ECF stating sub ohm is more dangerous than standard ohm vaping makes no sense since vaping a low res carto on a ego twist @ full blast or any setting for that matter could be just as bad with a dry hit, which we all know cartos are notorious of. not to mention all that other crap in there. Wires, solder, flux, metal, plastic, filler, and I could go as far as to speculate leaded solder could be used in those. I could go on...
DW uses a an awful smelling possibly tobacco blend last time I saw him lol!
I tried it and it tasted as bad as it smelled to me.
C.B.
buffaloguy
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In answer to the question "how much acrolein is produced?" Its so hard to give a difinitive answer. Every study would likely have different results just based on what wick types and how well or how badly the coils were built. Are they manufactured coils like in an iclear, or aerotank? Are they rba, or rda coils? Have the coils been checked with a magnifying glass for loose wraps? Is there not enough, or even too much, wicking media? Can the wicking really handle the voltage and ohms you are throwing at it?
There are so many questions and variables at play. What I can tell you is if you are doing your own coils you need to inspect them very closely before you juice them and be sure they stay wet with juice, always. While Im not certain that will eliminate acrolein production entirely it may help to minimize it.
Do not vape a shoddy coil. Dont overlook shorts, or micro shorts on mesh wicks. Dont take chances.
That one loose wrap might not produce enough burned out nasty taste to be noticable but it is likely burning hotter and producing more acrolein as a result.
Take the time to check, double check, and recheck your coils. If in doubt stop and rebuild it. And if you dry burn coils to clean them.... please dont inhale that shit. Keep it outta your face.
I dont know if we can get a difinitive answer. What I do know is that acrolein is a proven danger in vaping.
There are so many questions and variables at play. What I can tell you is if you are doing your own coils you need to inspect them very closely before you juice them and be sure they stay wet with juice, always. While Im not certain that will eliminate acrolein production entirely it may help to minimize it.
Do not vape a shoddy coil. Dont overlook shorts, or micro shorts on mesh wicks. Dont take chances.
That one loose wrap might not produce enough burned out nasty taste to be noticable but it is likely burning hotter and producing more acrolein as a result.
Take the time to check, double check, and recheck your coils. If in doubt stop and rebuild it. And if you dry burn coils to clean them.... please dont inhale that shit. Keep it outta your face.
I dont know if we can get a difinitive answer. What I do know is that acrolein is a proven danger in vaping.
VaporJoe
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The first question is - even if ALL this is true.. how much safer is it then smoking tobacco? I would assume A LOT
Rapture
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Well I would assume a lot too. Put a lite cig next to a wet sub ohm coil producing vapor and I think the results speak for themselves. Cigarettes stink. Taste horrible. Will make you cough the first time.
But I could be wrong and those nice thick vape clouds could be 100% acrolein clouds. But I highly doubt it cause acrolein is a eye, nose, throat, and upper respiratory irritant.
It could also be possible that the small amounts of acrolein produced go in and back out our lungs. I mean look at the huge clouds we blow out. Only a small percent of the vape stays in our lungs I'd imagine.
I vape unflavored juice and if my coil is working properly I taste nothing but VG and PG and slight cotton. After a while it does start to taste different but I can't tell what is different. Definitely doesn't smell of formaldehyde and isn't acrid. A dry hit at 100 watts, yes it's horrible, hellish, and acrid to say the least.
bsoplinger
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Would this be before or after someone (perhaps the same person dealing with rayon) can prove that the tons of nasty chemicals and pesticides used to grow cotton are removed from the final product.
Seems if one feels that the safety of cotton has been proven that the safety of pharmaceutical grade rayon would surely be as safe.
The point of this thread was not that the info ECF was using was absolutely incorrect but that is was findings in one situation were being inappropriately extrapolated to apply to a rather different situation.
PS: Don't try to learn how the nicotine we use is manufactured or what chemicals are used in the process because nobody has proven all those nasty chemicals are completely removed from the final product.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Xparent Purple Tapatalk 2
Yeah the FDA is going to have a field day with this shit
VaporJoe
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Ding Ding.. we have a winner!
Rapture
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I get my nicotine base from nude nicotine and get a chemical analysis of it along with the VG. The nicotine and VG are like 99.something pure
buffaloguy
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Well Joe, it is true that coils can produce acrolein. It a fact. But let me propose a hypothetical which could in essence be a true reality.
A new vaper gets set up with an mvp box mod and and a bottom coil tank. Now one would think those premade coil heads from the manufacturer are made reasonably well. This vaper is happy with his setup and uses this combo for a number of years. What he doesnt know is that those coils maybe arent the best and they have loose wraps (not that they do... this is a hypothetical). Doesnt notice cause the vape tastes fine. He also doesnt realize that hes running that box mod just slightly too high of wattage for those coils. Maybe .5w too high but he was told thats where they taste the best. He doesnt know any better. All he knows is that vaping is great and its helped him quit smoking. His rig works (seemingly) and hes happy until one day he goes to his doc and is told he has cancer. The doc has his rig tested and it shows high amounts of acrolein being released. Doc already knows what acrolein does to the body. This is poven science. Acrolein is toxic and its the cause of his cancer.
Now this is an absolute possability. A hypothetical but definite possability. The average vaper is going to do what the shop says and there are plenty of morons running shops who provide bad education.
At low levels you wont taste acrolein but it may still be present. Just because you dont get a FULLY acrid hit does not mean its not there at all. You can vape all the white, fluffy, yummy, mongo clouds you want to.... it does not mean its not there.... it also doesnt mean that it is.
We just dont know man. And as I said... too many variables at play.
Minimizing risks and harm requires patience and attention to detail. As someone vapes high VG out of necessity I am more than aware of what acrolein can do, and how it tastes. I check my gear alot. I dont even blink when I feel a coil is wrong... even if a tank is just filled.... I drain and fix that coil.
I know the above is maybe far fetched, but maybe it isnt. I know vapers like that myself that just do what a shop keep says, and think their gear is infallable.
We know that vaping likely is not safe. Is it better than smoking? My lungs say yes. My doctor says yes cause he has seen the results in my overall health. Is it truly safer via scientific analysis? Yeah, likely but it doesand has been proven to emit nasty shit. Just in way lower concentration than cigs.... but if your rig is messed up? Who knows, maybe its not safer.
Sorry, Im ranting.... again my point is... check your shit and make sure its done right.
buffaloguy
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Yes until it is heated sure. Then what? Thats the point.
Rapture
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I was quoting the guy who said something about the chemicals used to make nicotine
tombaker
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I probably should have avoided placing Rayon in this thread, I had just posted on the VU Rayon thread what I found. I was able to find there is something called Medical Grade Rayon Balls, found a source for them, which is fairly cheap 2 buck for 5 large sterile balls. There are many sources of non-sterile Medical Grade Rayon. Because of this I think there is a high chance of talking to those suppliers and getting real information on what is in the Rayon, how it is sterilized, which is hopefully autoclave, vs bleaching etc. Because the medical stuff is used in medical testing devices, such as DNA swabs, its going to be very likely that nasty biohazardous chemicals won't be in there. DNA is somewhat fragile I believe. I think this is good news.
buffaloguy
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Gotcha, sry. You are right for the most part on that but it would be dependant on supplier and the VG purity is the part Id be more worried about than the nic purity.
Rapture
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No worries. Even with 99% pure VG and Nicotine still somewhat concerned about the acrolein. I mean is acrolein something that will cause cancer right away or later in life life smoking
Rapture
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So if the boiling point is when the vapor happens and the breakdown of glycerin to acrolein happens 10 degrees lower than that how are people vaping 100% VG and not having an of the symptoms associated with acrolein, tasting it, or smelling it. There must be more to this then just heating to 280c.
Nu2Mods
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Uh oh...now I gotta quit cripsing the hot dogs? Durn
To me this just sounds like a jab at the RDA/RBA makers out there taking business away from the companies that have been making bank off of selling vapers cartos and the like for years. Or could be coming right from big tobacco who are now investing big in the e-cig market and again want people to stick to the carto style e-cigs that more closely resemble the product they've been trying to sell us as safe for decades, cigarettes.
Rapture
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Could be... I find it amazing that people used to think smoking cigarettes was risk free. How could you possibly think inhaling smoke was ok.
I hope the same doesn't apply here in 10 years...
"How could those idiots think that inhaling glycerin vapor was safe"
Rapture
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I just ordered a infrared temperature reader gun with a laser sight and I'm gonna do some readings on my coils. Without cotton. With juiced cotton. Blowing on the coils. Not blowing on the coils. I'm gonna go from like 30watts all the way up to 120watts and see what we get.
This is just for the sake of me having a general idea of how hot MY coils get at a given wattage. I know the results won't be really accurate because I wouldn't have the cap on but I just wanna get a general idea here. Gonna try 100%VG and 80VG 20PG and possibly some distilled water in there somewhere. I've read that even at 5 percent water can drastically reduce the boiling point of VG.
I already know the boiling point of the VG I have because it was included in the analysis I got with my order. It's 290 degrees celcius. So if acrolein begins to form at 10 degrees Lower than that (according to wiki) I def won't be vaping 100% VG anytime in the near future.
I am not a scientist or chemist. I just make box mods. I'm just doing this to make myself feel bette (or worse)
lets just hope these juiced coils are below 280 celcius. And if I find there's a certain wattage that it goes up to 280 or above I'll refrain from vaping that high. If these coils max out my thermometer reader, well I may have an anxiety attack.
This is just for the sake of me having a general idea of how hot MY coils get at a given wattage. I know the results won't be really accurate because I wouldn't have the cap on but I just wanna get a general idea here. Gonna try 100%VG and 80VG 20PG and possibly some distilled water in there somewhere. I've read that even at 5 percent water can drastically reduce the boiling point of VG.
I already know the boiling point of the VG I have because it was included in the analysis I got with my order. It's 290 degrees celcius. So if acrolein begins to form at 10 degrees Lower than that (according to wiki) I def won't be vaping 100% VG anytime in the near future.
I am not a scientist or chemist. I just make box mods. I'm just doing this to make myself feel bette (or worse)
lets just hope these juiced coils are below 280 celcius. And if I find there's a certain wattage that it goes up to 280 or above I'll refrain from vaping that high. If these coils max out my thermometer reader, well I may have an anxiety attack.
There's purity testing to make sure those chemicals are removed.
Your point is better made about making good nicotine too hard to get forcing people to try it at home or at the local trailer park chemist. That is the situation where someone may be getting a little acetone or kerosine with their nicotine.
There is always going to be some risk with nicotine thats a given but people have been going to clubs with fog machines for decades and there still in use today which produces vapor basically the same way, I have yet to see the FDA or any other regulatory commissions come out and say they are producing carcinogens that are killing us. So to your 10 year study, well it's gone on way longer than that. I know that is a simplified analogy but remember you have big tobacco fighting against us on this with high paid lobbyist and they have been at it for decades.
According to Wiki, really? I mean do you believe everything you read on wiki? Do you understand that anyone can go in and edit a wiki page? I could make a wiki page claiming that zebra's are really checkered pattern and not striped and if I link it right it will come up as fact! The facts on what your looking up may be correct in their numbers but to many people take wiki as fact based info when a lot of it is just opinion with no more research than what is shown in this original posting from ECF.
Rapture
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I mean do you really believe anyone can go in and edit a Wikipedia page? Add to it. Not edit.
I'm not sure the point of your response other than to try and start an argument. If you have better information on the break down temp of glycerin to acrolein please let us know. Stop complaining about Wikipedia before I make you pay for half of this temp reader.
buffaloguy
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I hate to say this but I remember a long time ago there was someone kn ECF who did these kinds of tests on coils. I believe he determined coils didnt get hot enough to cause acrolein but they needed to remain wet.
I dont have time to dig for it right now but I know the info is there someplace.
Rapture
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That's reassuring. I wonder what kind of wattage he was doing.
hope it was with a mech
buffaloguy
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Im still digging for the thread I am thinking of. Its proving to be difficult to find. The tests were done by one of the chemists over there. In the meantime I did find this for everyone. A vid talking about coil temps using an infrared temp gun. Temp measurements around 9:35.
He makes a very good point in the video that PG, VG, and sweeteners can all produce acrolein. And he is correct. They just do it at different temps. So we should all be somewhat concerned... or maybe not?
Imo, the coil temperature cannot be measured because really are partially measuring the air temperature which throws off accuracy. How much? My guess is by quite alot. Since air is not that hot it cools down the sensor readings. I would think you need a thermocouple but Im so not an expert on this kind of stuff. Just as educated as possible as I learn each day.
I did find a post by Kurt, one of the resident chemists on ecf, someone whom I really do have a great deal of respect for because he has always provided good knowledge and unbiased opinions. He said this:
"First of all, if you add pretty much ANYTHING to pure VG (water, flavorings, etc) the boiling point is decreased dramatically. If I make an unflavored juice with 20% water, it will have a boiling point around 140 C. PG, some actual flavor compounds, water, will all lower the BP a lot.
Second, it is not completely black and white in terms of acrolein production, but not far from it. There have been very trace levels found in vapor, but only when the coil is very hot, much hotter than anything a normal person would vape at, and it has never been found even in extreme cases at a level that would pose harm. A burnt-tasting nasty "dry puff" probably does contain trace acrolein, as well as other pyrolysis products. It burns the nose, and then we add more juice or change coils, we don't continue vaping with it burning the nose. The body will reject it pretty emphatically. You KNOW when something is getting burnt.
Many studies looking at acrolein production from vaping, and results are either there is none or else it is at a harmless trace level, orders of magnitude less than occupational hazard levels. Even if we were vaping pure VG, nothing else in it, there would be virtually no acrolein in the vapor from a wet coil. But a good rule of thumb is if the vape tastes at all burned, it is time to add more juice or use a new coil. Something we have instinctively done for years now."
Which in essence is what I have been saying. Make sure those coils stay wet, and built well. One loose wrap heating too hot will likely produce nasty shit. These situations are likely where you can be in for trouble.
"Hotter than a normal person would vape at" as Kurt said is a caveat here. Now does jacking up wattage to 20watts, or 30 watts, or 50 watts, or even 100 watts change things? Doing it with a sub ohm coil? Seeing as the coil temps can increase substancially as you go higher watts and lower ohms/resistance.... I hate to say this but sheer logic says we are likely severely pushing the limits of what may/may not be safe practices for vaping. Where that limit is? I have no idea but Id like to know.
He makes a very good point in the video that PG, VG, and sweeteners can all produce acrolein. And he is correct. They just do it at different temps. So we should all be somewhat concerned... or maybe not?
Imo, the coil temperature cannot be measured because really are partially measuring the air temperature which throws off accuracy. How much? My guess is by quite alot. Since air is not that hot it cools down the sensor readings. I would think you need a thermocouple but Im so not an expert on this kind of stuff. Just as educated as possible as I learn each day.
I did find a post by Kurt, one of the resident chemists on ecf, someone whom I really do have a great deal of respect for because he has always provided good knowledge and unbiased opinions. He said this:
"First of all, if you add pretty much ANYTHING to pure VG (water, flavorings, etc) the boiling point is decreased dramatically. If I make an unflavored juice with 20% water, it will have a boiling point around 140 C. PG, some actual flavor compounds, water, will all lower the BP a lot.
Second, it is not completely black and white in terms of acrolein production, but not far from it. There have been very trace levels found in vapor, but only when the coil is very hot, much hotter than anything a normal person would vape at, and it has never been found even in extreme cases at a level that would pose harm. A burnt-tasting nasty "dry puff" probably does contain trace acrolein, as well as other pyrolysis products. It burns the nose, and then we add more juice or change coils, we don't continue vaping with it burning the nose. The body will reject it pretty emphatically. You KNOW when something is getting burnt.
Many studies looking at acrolein production from vaping, and results are either there is none or else it is at a harmless trace level, orders of magnitude less than occupational hazard levels. Even if we were vaping pure VG, nothing else in it, there would be virtually no acrolein in the vapor from a wet coil. But a good rule of thumb is if the vape tastes at all burned, it is time to add more juice or use a new coil. Something we have instinctively done for years now."
Which in essence is what I have been saying. Make sure those coils stay wet, and built well. One loose wrap heating too hot will likely produce nasty shit. These situations are likely where you can be in for trouble.
"Hotter than a normal person would vape at" as Kurt said is a caveat here. Now does jacking up wattage to 20watts, or 30 watts, or 50 watts, or even 100 watts change things? Doing it with a sub ohm coil? Seeing as the coil temps can increase substancially as you go higher watts and lower ohms/resistance.... I hate to say this but sheer logic says we are likely severely pushing the limits of what may/may not be safe practices for vaping. Where that limit is? I have no idea but Id like to know.
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buffaloguy
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I believe I read 2ppm is fatal. Long term exposue is unknown but I do know acrolein is produced by cigarette smoke (much higher temps than ecigs i believe) and has been linked to cancer. I also know that short term exposure above a certain amount can land you in the hospital, and skin exposure to concentrated acrolein is bad news (youd never be exposed to that with an ecig).
My best guess? Yeah, long term exposure to acrolein is bad news. As a high VG vaper this is why I fuss over my coils alot. I know there is risk. Im not going to be ignorant of it. I also know it may not protect me anyways.... but cigarettes... those fuckers will kill me faster.
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tombaker
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The study the NYT used, and Dr. F explained, comes from juices being burned. The Wiki also says Acrolein (systematic name: propenal) is the simplest unsaturated aldehyde. It is a colourless liquid with a piercing, disagreeable, acrid smell. The smell of burnt fat (as when cooking oil is heated to its smoke point) is caused by glycerol in the burning fat breaking down into acrolein.
The study was simply frying juice and test the results. The Wiki explains everything you see and smell when you dry burn a gunked coil. Acrolein is created by burning up the oil to its smoke point. The study found at the levels of performance of a normal vape. The levels were way way way lower than cigarettes. At the worst level you approached equal to a cigarette.
So with some common sense.
1. Sub-ohming: The airflow, surface area, large wicking makes the wattage to the coils, just a number.....the juice is not getting burned up, we know this because of the taste of the juice. You are getting a slightly warmer vape, big deal. You are getting a huge volume. This is why 3mg juice is sold.
2. When you taste a dry hit, or a burnt taste, you stop, and you figure it out. The Wiki says the smell of Acrolein is an easy sensor of its presence. So at the burn level, you are at a cigarette level, you take one of those hits, and fix it. Its like a single puff (or two) out of a single cigarette. Or cooking up fried bacon too much. ITS NOT like Sub-ohmers are vaping a crapped out tasting liquid.
3. ECF saying the Vape of Sub-Ohming is materially different than a normal vape is WRONG. Saying its cancerous is just fear-mongering. Anyone looking at disclaimers in California, knows that everything is declared cancerous as a mandatory disclosure. (Okay not everything, but way too many things, to where the warning is now meaningless)
4. All of the evidence points to that normal tasting E-Liquid from any vaping device, produces essentially the same vape, same juice to same juice. With Sub-Ohm you gets tons of vape, with Njoy you get a small vanishing puff.
5. Sniff up a dry burn of a gunked coil-----are you vaping that?
2. When you taste a dry hit, or a burnt taste, you stop, and you figure it out. The Wiki says the smell of Acrolein is an easy sensor of its presence. So at the burn level, you are at a cigarette level, you take one of those hits, and fix it. Its like a single puff (or two) out of a single cigarette. Or cooking up fried bacon too much. ITS NOT like Sub-ohmers are vaping a crapped out tasting liquid.
3. ECF saying the Vape of Sub-Ohming is materially different than a normal vape is WRONG. Saying its cancerous is just fear-mongering. Anyone looking at disclaimers in California, knows that everything is declared cancerous as a mandatory disclosure. (Okay not everything, but way too many things, to where the warning is now meaningless)
4. All of the evidence points to that normal tasting E-Liquid from any vaping device, produces essentially the same vape, same juice to same juice. With Sub-Ohm you gets tons of vape, with Njoy you get a small vanishing puff.
5. Sniff up a dry burn of a gunked coil-----are you vaping that?
ECF put out this Anti-Sub-Ohming (ASM?) for their own reasons, without caring about its implications, full well knowing the media contacts them, and their self interested "warning" is going cause fear and loathing in the general public.
ECF with this warning, is clearly exposing themselves to far more legal risk, because this dangerous warning is only in some sub-groups, and it will clearly be driving people into habits they feel are very risky. I found the warning from an unrelated Google search. Member who click the warning away, I am fairly sure will never see it again. So a lawyer can show ECF knew the problem, and then did entirely inadequate measures to prevent its users from continuing the practices, even though they know the forum they created, is encouraging and creating new users to enter into a practice they KNEW was harmful. The wig wearing barristers will have a field day. The good news, for ECF, this warning is based in nothing much more than their legal CYA
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buffaloguy
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Tom, I understand your point and I agree with you that it is a bit shortsighted. I know what acrolein is and how well it doesnt taste. Been there, done that.
However, you CAN have a seemingly fine tasting vape that still produces acrolein in small amounts. That CAN still be dangerous over the long term. Especially is gear is outta whack even a little bit. We dont know, and that study doesnt say how high wattage and low ohms can effect safety.
Sub ohming is not just a "warmer vape". Its created by a substancially hotter coil. Airflow will reduce that temp a little but in a small chamber, like a kayfun, logic says not by much.
"At the worst level you approached equal to a cigarette." So this answers your own question as why, just maybe, they felt the need to issue their little warning. Higher temps for these juices are likely a bad idea. Can it be minimized, yes. Im sure with good skill and knowledge we can minimize the risks. They cannot be emilinated and sub ohming at higher temps could likely be bad for all of us.
Keep in mind, I myself prefer .8ohm to 1.0ohm coils and use them daily. Im in agreement ECF jumped the gun and should not be doing this right now, but I see it as err'ing on the side of caution, not a scare tactic. I hardly see how they have a reason to scare anyone away. That doesnt benefit their cause no matter what we think that cause may be.
Im a member there but Im neither an ecf hater or an ecf lover. Im indifferent to their methods or motives, and think their blind following of casaa is overall a bad idea. Just my .02 so you know where Im at.
However, you CAN have a seemingly fine tasting vape that still produces acrolein in small amounts. That CAN still be dangerous over the long term. Especially is gear is outta whack even a little bit. We dont know, and that study doesnt say how high wattage and low ohms can effect safety.
Sub ohming is not just a "warmer vape". Its created by a substancially hotter coil. Airflow will reduce that temp a little but in a small chamber, like a kayfun, logic says not by much.
"At the worst level you approached equal to a cigarette." So this answers your own question as why, just maybe, they felt the need to issue their little warning. Higher temps for these juices are likely a bad idea. Can it be minimized, yes. Im sure with good skill and knowledge we can minimize the risks. They cannot be emilinated and sub ohming at higher temps could likely be bad for all of us.
Keep in mind, I myself prefer .8ohm to 1.0ohm coils and use them daily. Im in agreement ECF jumped the gun and should not be doing this right now, but I see it as err'ing on the side of caution, not a scare tactic. I hardly see how they have a reason to scare anyone away. That doesnt benefit their cause no matter what we think that cause may be.
Im a member there but Im neither an ecf hater or an ecf lover. Im indifferent to their methods or motives, and think their blind following of casaa is overall a bad idea. Just my .02 so you know where Im at.
Hermit
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No, it's not necessarily higher temperature. We must be careful with the terms here - at higher power there is more energy, which does go into heat. But if that heat is spread over a proportionally greater mass of coil, the temperature will be the same (as with lower power and less mass). Roughly speaking, that's what sub-ohm vapers do - thicker wire or ribbon, twisted wires, multiple coils (often a combination of those things) - all add mass.
We're quite sensitive to temperature, so I suspect a hotter/cooler vape isn't actually at a massively different temperature.
tombaker
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The study that Dr. F reviewed has very low levels at normal vaping. I am suggesting Sub-Ohming remains normal vaping even though one aspect can be different. The coil temperature without wicking or liquid.
Dry cotton would burn up without fluid. Catch on fire burn up. So in isolation the coil temperature is something but its the entire system with air flow, and being wet, and coil temp. Low levels of acrolein are not view as dangerous, because French Frys have it too.
How about a nuclear reactor. With coiling it controlled, without cooling its Fukashma.
My issue with ECF is they control content, not that the ban insults, they control what the views expressed are. What is left is the ECF view, and here is their view that is way out front of the science. I am reasonably certain that Dr. F is going to be doing a study on this matter, using real world examples. Not burning something at a level which would never be vaped on. ECF could have waited for that. Instead they put out that some Vape is Cancerous, and others are not, and that is within the normal current usages by Vapers.
There remains a ton of solid basic information done by members of ECF such as http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-not-matter-its-all-about-wire-temp-read.html
Here is some data I found on Coil temps. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7jYSCRRRND1Qmh3TVp6Q2VZdkE/edit
OhFerChristSake. Did Al Gore write that?
buffaloguy
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Tom, thats actually one of the ecf threads I was looking at earlier as well. Its a decent one.
One place we differ is that at low levels I dont believe acrolein isnt dangerous. Charred meat can cause cancer and contains acrolein. We eat french frys, we do not inhale them. Besides our stomachs can filter out things our lungs cannot. The question was asked by others, if long term exposure was bad? It stands to reason if ecig steam/vapor contains it, the answer is yes.
What Hermit says is very valid here. Low ohms with lower gauge over more surface area might be the safer answer, I dunno. Still that takes build knowledge and I see plenty of 32g kanthal 2 or 3 wrap coils that are going to get crazy hot at even 12w. All Im saying is we dont know enough yet and caution is warranted as well as good practices. Im eager to see all Dr. F's work too. It will help to establish more standard safe practices I hope, at least what limits there should be if any.
Ive poted things that ecf wouldnt like, even critical of casaa, and havent been banned or warned in the past. However I usually do so while expressing I have understanding of different point of view. Regardless, I think you have reason to be upset about this one, just not for the reasons you have stated. I really do not believe it has anything to do with fear mongering, politics, legalities, or control and is rather simply a knee jerk over concern for people. Frankly, it might be wrong but at least they care enough to do so. I dont see it the way you do. I guess my perspective is different.
Im not saying you are wrong Tom. I just have a different view.
One place we differ is that at low levels I dont believe acrolein isnt dangerous. Charred meat can cause cancer and contains acrolein. We eat french frys, we do not inhale them. Besides our stomachs can filter out things our lungs cannot. The question was asked by others, if long term exposure was bad? It stands to reason if ecig steam/vapor contains it, the answer is yes.
What Hermit says is very valid here. Low ohms with lower gauge over more surface area might be the safer answer, I dunno. Still that takes build knowledge and I see plenty of 32g kanthal 2 or 3 wrap coils that are going to get crazy hot at even 12w. All Im saying is we dont know enough yet and caution is warranted as well as good practices. Im eager to see all Dr. F's work too. It will help to establish more standard safe practices I hope, at least what limits there should be if any.
Ive poted things that ecf wouldnt like, even critical of casaa, and havent been banned or warned in the past. However I usually do so while expressing I have understanding of different point of view. Regardless, I think you have reason to be upset about this one, just not for the reasons you have stated. I really do not believe it has anything to do with fear mongering, politics, legalities, or control and is rather simply a knee jerk over concern for people. Frankly, it might be wrong but at least they care enough to do so. I dont see it the way you do. I guess my perspective is different.
Im not saying you are wrong Tom. I just have a different view.
tombaker
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I understand an appreciate what you are saying, I believe that the Vape of Sub-Ohm is the same as the standard vape, its just a faster assembly line speed, creating it, and more of it. The presentation by ECF owners is a conclusion, and proclamation of danger, when at this point its pure speculation, and Vapors getting the same taste from Sub-Ohm as with a tank is pretty good evidence that Vapor is not radically different. We can wait for the results, but the ECF warning against this form of vaping was not only the Vape itself. The warning I read as effectively saying "Don't do it, its not safe". And putting that out at this point causes fear and ammunition, needlessly.
Its based off continuous dry hits, rather than the user avoiding dry hits.
I've noticed that there are a lot of ANTZ on ECF....it is unfortunate
tombaker
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Wow, what a resource.
I think he entirely destroys the fear-mongering, with evidence.
Keypoints, Acrolein is released at 280+ Celcuus, His test get around 295C bare coil ignited zero wick.
When a wick is added, with Juice, he gets readings of 135 C. Far lower than the temperature needed. But with the cap on, and draw, the temperature would even be lower, per him and I think he said PBusardo.
What has been talked about here, with airflow and wicking, he has confirmed with tests. I think all this would be true for even lower Ohms than his test, because it should translate, because the builds are producing pleasant vaping. A dry hit, right when it drys up, would likely still be below 280, but that was not spoken to, or tested.
Hats off to Pegasus1337
Rapture
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Thank you. Would the same hold true for vaping a .35 ohm dual coil at around 5 volts. It really isn't that hot with my big airholes. I got a heat gun on the way though.
VapedCrusader
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Yea but at the same time, this only represents a small percentage of the vaping community... I don't think the FDA have the brain capacity to try and understand subohming or even want to try and push that topic because its too confusing for the avg person to understand..
pushing e-cigs and flavors towards children is way more easier for them to spin to the media. fuckers...
Rapture
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You can also pretty much get a good idea of how hot your vape is by letting the vapor run into your tongue by sticking it near the drip tip opening. It may just come down to if it burns your tounge it's too hot. I
I'm pretty sure the airflow drastically reduces heat when used in an advanced rda with the air holes lined up perfectly. With new dripper designs such as the plume veil where the airflow comes in from multiple direction as well as a wide open standard direct airflow probably reduces the heat even more.
In essence the increased airflow for dropping down in resistance not only played a role in vapor production but has an increased cooling effect that is needed to keep a good vape. I still probably won't be vaping my raptor mod at its full potential of 120 watts anymore though. Honestly anything over 100 watts is overkill to me.
I'm pretty sure the airflow drastically reduces heat when used in an advanced rda with the air holes lined up perfectly. With new dripper designs such as the plume veil where the airflow comes in from multiple direction as well as a wide open standard direct airflow probably reduces the heat even more.
In essence the increased airflow for dropping down in resistance not only played a role in vapor production but has an increased cooling effect that is needed to keep a good vape. I still probably won't be vaping my raptor mod at its full potential of 120 watts anymore though. Honestly anything over 100 watts is overkill to me.
buffaloguy
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lol, its the same video I linked to earlier in the thread. Keepin mind those thermal readings may be close, OR they may not be. They also read the surrounding air temp that is much cooler. There isnt a way for me to know. I dont have that kinda cash to invest in a thermocouple.
I think you would have to thermocouple the coil for an accurate reading. Just for overview's sake:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple
Its likely that inside the coil in an rda, as juice is not "fed" as in a pressure or gravity based atomizer, a thermocouple would get readings much hotter than the gun would. Especially as the wick begins to dry out, and we a know people that try to vape every drop before they redrip. We should advise them maybe to not do that.
I think his work holds much merit and its a good start but I want people to know that its not likely accurate. It could be.close tho.
I think you would have to thermocouple the coil for an accurate reading. Just for overview's sake:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple
Its likely that inside the coil in an rda, as juice is not "fed" as in a pressure or gravity based atomizer, a thermocouple would get readings much hotter than the gun would. Especially as the wick begins to dry out, and we a know people that try to vape every drop before they redrip. We should advise them maybe to not do that.
I think his work holds much merit and its a good start but I want people to know that its not likely accurate. It could be.close tho.
Rapture
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Just curious where your getting your info that infrared thermometers read surrounding air temps. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a thermometer for reading "surface temperatures. In not saying I don't believe you I would just like to know if this is speculation or a known fact about infrared thermometers. Seems like if they read surrounding air then no measurement would be accurate.
buffaloguy
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Here:
http://www.thermoworks.com/blog/2012/03/infrared-thermometry/
And here:
See the attached as well for more detailed info. "You can point the laser at an ant on your desk but what you will get is the temperature of the ant and your desk. Now if you cover your.desk with ants you will get the temp of the ants."
The document also covers that the answer to whether it measures air temps and the answer is yes, and no. Certain things like vapor and particulate matter in the air will subvert accurate readings. Even at close range. The pdf says a ton, some of which you have to think about how your tests on coils might be effected and also answers the idea 'well if i hold the gun close enough its accurate.' Not true in many cases.
Also. It only measures surface temps, not internal temps. That is also a problem. The wicks are inside a coil. How hot is it inside there? Cause thats what truly matters. Where wick meets coil is what delivers the juice. The temp on the outside AND inside matters. Now common sense says inside is wet = cooler. However as the liquid vaporizes... how much sequentially hotter does BOTH the inside and outside get.... AND how do different wattages/voltages and ohms effect it? If we want accurate results its not as easy as saying infrared gun, and done.
Again, Im NO expert, but it seems to me this is why a thermocouple is needed for accuracy.
You can also seach google for "Do infrared thermometers read surrounding air temperature?" Plenty of info to read.
http://www.thermoworks.com/blog/2012/03/infrared-thermometry/
And here:
See the attached as well for more detailed info. "You can point the laser at an ant on your desk but what you will get is the temperature of the ant and your desk. Now if you cover your.desk with ants you will get the temp of the ants."
The document also covers that the answer to whether it measures air temps and the answer is yes, and no. Certain things like vapor and particulate matter in the air will subvert accurate readings. Even at close range. The pdf says a ton, some of which you have to think about how your tests on coils might be effected and also answers the idea 'well if i hold the gun close enough its accurate.' Not true in many cases.
Also. It only measures surface temps, not internal temps. That is also a problem. The wicks are inside a coil. How hot is it inside there? Cause thats what truly matters. Where wick meets coil is what delivers the juice. The temp on the outside AND inside matters. Now common sense says inside is wet = cooler. However as the liquid vaporizes... how much sequentially hotter does BOTH the inside and outside get.... AND how do different wattages/voltages and ohms effect it? If we want accurate results its not as easy as saying infrared gun, and done.
Again, Im NO expert, but it seems to me this is why a thermocouple is needed for accuracy.
You can also seach google for "Do infrared thermometers read surrounding air temperature?" Plenty of info to read.
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