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wllmc

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butyric acid makes my throat hurt and my chest heavy. I always know when a flavor has it
 

Mr.Mann

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butyric acid makes my throat hurt and my chest heavy. I always know when a flavor has it

Yep. Ever since HiC schooled me, my eyes were opened and I got to a point where I could, with a relatively decent degree of certainty, recognize AP and Acetoin; Butryc Acid is easy for me to recognize since I haven't (that I know of) found a flavor that has it that I liked, plus It really dries my throat. Don't like the taste; don't like the feeling. I really don't like the feeling of any of them, but with diketones, as long as the percentage I add them in is really low, I get the flavor-shaping benefits without the icky feelings. I gasp when I see recipes that use, for instance, several (as many as 5 and up) ingredients that all have these type of chems and the total flavor percentage is in the range of %10-20 (and sometimes higher). To each his own, but damn!

Edit: When I say "low percentage," I generally stick to about 2% and under with buttery flavors, and sometimes, like with Capella French Vanilla, I use small percentages of a 10% pre-dilution. But total flavors that have it in one of my recipes will rarely ever exceed or even meet the 2% mark.
 
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The Vape Space

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Thank you for the clarification. While you're right that "other markets" (and some flavoring companies) have begun using dilute butyric acid as their latest diacetyl substitute, I have not seen any studies that show this ketone is chemically more stable or "safer" in human tissue than the more popular alternatives. The principals of chemistry would not seem to support that claim. If there is conflicting evidence to the contrary, I'd sure like to see it.

Now, certain esters of butyric acid can indeed stabilize the molecule. As far as I know, none of the U.S. flavor companies bothers with that step.

We do have to add extra caution because we are inhaling concentrated amounts of butyric acid. As far as the research is concerned, it is a lung irritant, however, not proven to be on the level of diacetyl, acetyl propionyl, or any of the other well known bad company in the vape community. The benefit of butyric acid, at this point, is that far less of it is used in flavoring than respective diketones.

Esterification is something that is used in many fruit flavorings, but it is harder to get the creamy flavorings with the common processes. With the uncommon processes, it will produce some very toxic biproducts.

Proof that butyric acid is in very small quantities can be seen in the everyday condition of one's atomizer.
 

The Vape Space

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Yep. Ever since HiC schooled me, my eyes were opened and I got to a point where I could, with a relatively decent degree of certainty, recognize AP and Acetoin; Butryc Acid is easy for me to recognize since I haven't (that I know of) found a flavor that has it that I liked, plus It really dries my throat. Don't like the taste; don't like the feeling. I really don't like the feeling of any of them, but with diketones, as long as the percentage I add them in is really low, I get the flavor-shaping benefits without the icky feelings. I gasp when I see recipes that use, for instance, several (as many as 5 and up) ingredients that all have these type of chems and the total flavor percentage is in the range of %10-20 (and sometimes higher). To each his own, but damn!

Edit: When I say "low percentage," I generally stick to about 2% and under with buttery flavors, and sometimes, like with Capella French Vanilla, I use small percentages of a 10% pre-dilution. But total flavors that have it in one of my recipes will rarely ever exceed or even meet the 2% mark.

I have had good flavors with butyric acid, but oh mannnn have I made some bad ones. It was completely relearning how to work with it.

However, it is good that you stick with very low percentages, but over time the cumulative damage from diketones could be a worry. You're not in bad shape if you vape <10mL a day, it's the drippers out there who vape >15mLs of whatever that we need to worry about as community. All it takes is a couple of these cats to get bronchiolitis obiliterans and we are all in for the long dick of the government.
 

HeadInClouds

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... The benefit of butyric acid, at this point, is that far less of it is used in flavoring than respective diketones.

Esterification is something that is used in many fruit flavorings, but it is harder to get the creamy flavorings with the common processes. With the uncommon processes, it will produce some very toxic biproducts.

Proof that butyric acid is in very small quantities can be seen in the everyday condition of one's atomizer.

Using less is always an improvement, I agree. Avoiding it is another possibility. Proper esterification does take careful, expert chemistry to prevent reversion. But it can be done, has been done, and is used in some (non-US) flavorings in place of dikeones.

I haven't noticed atomizer problems with any of the diketones. But I don't doubt that butyric acid is very dilute when it's included. Larger amounts smell distinctly like human vomit, so there's a thin line between useful and :eek: with that ingredient. Some people seem more sensitive to that than others. TFA is currently carrying a few flavorings with it to judge their popularity - because of that trait.
 

Mr.Mann

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I have had good flavors with butyric acid, but oh mannnn have I made some bad ones. It was completely relearning how to work with it.

However, it is good that you stick with very low percentages, but over time the cumulative damage from diketones could be a worry. You're not in bad shape if you vape <10mL a day, it's the drippers out there who vape >15mLs of whatever that we need to worry about as community. All it takes is a couple of these cats to get bronchiolitis obiliterans and we are all in for the long dick of the government.

I average per day < 3 mL out of a dripper and about < 2 mL of unflavored out of a 510 atty. But the thing is, while I do use diketones in small percentages in *some* of my recipes, I do not vape everyday those recipes that have them. I like the buttery flavors, but I am not captive to them.
 

The Vape Space

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Using less is always an improvement, I agree. Avoiding it is another possibility. Proper esterification does take careful, expert chemistry to prevent reversion. But it can be done, has been done, and is used in some (non-US) flavorings in place of dikeones.

I haven't noticed atomizer problems with any of the diketones. But I don't doubt that butyric acid is very dilute when it's included. Larger amounts smell distinctly like human vomit, so there's a thin line between useful and :eek: with that ingredient. Some people seem more sensitive to that than others. TFA is currently carrying a few flavorings with it to judge their popularity - because of that trait.


I have noticed that TFA is going that way, and I have tried some of them. They are okay, I will not say they are as good as the originals, but I will also say that very few tobacco e-juices are as good as a proper cigar. It's about the trade off, and if the trade off is there (which I think it is) then producers will continue to improve upon it until it is a taste that most people can enjoy. FlavourArt is one of the manufacturers that has done esterification with their custards, and it is necessary to add certain things to it to make it more palatable, so it's 6 to one, half dozen to another with regards to that. FA has become less transparent lately, and that is something that is a real deal breaker for me.

I was referring to butyric acid as an atomizer killer, because it is corrosive to metal.
 

The Vape Space

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I average per day < 3 mL out of a dripper and about < 2 mL of unflavored out of a 510 atty. But the thing is, while I do use diketones in small percentages in *some* of my recipes, I do not vape everyday those recipes that have them. I like the buttery flavors, but I am not captive to them.

Not to derail this, but I personally love Tobacco vapes... Dripping good tobacco vapes.
 

HeadInClouds

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FlavourArt is one of the manufacturers that has done esterification with their custards, and it is necessary to add certain things to it to make it more palatable, so it's 6 to one, half dozen to another with regards to that. FA has become less transparent lately, and that is something that is a real deal breaker for me.

If you are claiming that FlavourArt is adding something harmful to their e-cig flavorings, please be blunt. Have you asked them about whatever suspicion you might have? They've always been quite transparent in their answers to my direct questions.

With the possible exception of Pistachio, one of their wine flavors, and the new Fuji flavor, I believe their formulas have remained unchanged since their removal of diacetyl and related diketones, a couple of years now. The ClearStream biological testing was done on the same formulations they currently sell. FlavourArt is one of only two companies (the other being in Greece and hard to obtain here) I'm aware of which have ever done any toxicity tests on actual living cells. If you have knowledge of some danger in their flavorings, I hope you'll detail it!
 

Smoky Blue

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I have noticed now, on ecigexpress.. they have marked more from flavorart as hazardous..
yogurt is one :/
 

The Vape Space

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If you are claiming that FlavourArt is adding something harmful to their e-cig flavorings, please be blunt. Have you asked them about whatever suspicion you might have? They've always been quite transparent in their answers to my direct questions.

With the possible exception of Pistachio, one of their wine flavors, and the new Fuji flavor, I believe their formulas have remained unchanged since their removal of diacetyl and related diketones, a couple of years now. The ClearStream biological testing was done on the same formulations they currently sell. FlavourArt is one of only two companies (the other being in Greece and hard to obtain here) I'm aware of which have ever done any toxicity tests on actual living cells. If you have knowledge of some danger in their flavorings, I hope you'll detail it!

I sent an email regarding Tuscan Reserve, and the possibility that it contained diketones, (when I had tests done it was one of the suspect flavors). They proceeded to tell me that it didn't, but when I asked for a testing sheet, they never responded. This is not what I'd come to expect from them, as before they were very open about it, just as you had experienced.
 

Huckleberried

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I have noticed now, on ecigexpress.. they have marked more from flavorart as hazardous..
yogurt is one :/
That's been listed that way since my very first order. ECX is the only place I know of that sells them in their flavorings. FA has it listed, among others on ECX, in their kitchen line.
 

Smoky Blue

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i dont use that site often, but thanks for the link :)

didn't know, Huck.. or i didnt pay enough attention to notice it till last night :p
 

Mr.Mann

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If you are claiming that FlavourArt is adding something harmful to their e-cig flavorings, please be blunt. Have you asked them about whatever suspicion you might have? They've always been quite transparent in their answers to my direct questions.

With the possible exception of Pistachio, one of their wine flavors, and the new Fuji flavor, I believe their formulas have remained unchanged since their removal of diacetyl and related diketones, a couple of years now. The ClearStream biological testing was done on the same formulations they currently sell. FlavourArt is one of only two companies (the other being in Greece and hard to obtain here) I'm aware of which have ever done any toxicity tests on actual living cells. If you have knowledge of some danger in their flavorings, I hope you'll detail it!

Man, whatever the hell they did to produce Fuji Apple, I tell ya' I'll be in line for more in that vein.
 

The Vape Space

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Can you share your results?

I ended up not using the Tuscan Reserve, or the other tobacco (not FA), in the juice it was intended for. After reformulating, the Diacetyl on the final round of testing dropped from 7.97ppm to <1.14ppm (Not Detected).

Now this is not definitive, and I wasn't blunt because FA is not necessarily the culprit, it was simply their lack of proof that bothered me.
 

Smoky Blue

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I ended up not using the Tuscan Reserve, or the other tobacco (not FA), in the juice it was intended for. After reformulating, the Diacetyl on the final round of testing dropped from 7.97ppm to <1.14ppm (Not Detected).

Now this is not definitive, and I wasn't blunt because FA is not necessarily the culprit, it was simply their lack of proof that bothered me.


you mean they will not prove they are safe? why not? I thought they are the most touted for being safe..
 

The Vape Space

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you mean they will not prove they are safe? why not? I thought they are the most touted for being safe..

So in this one most recent instance, they would not provide proof that they did testing. Out of the two culprits for flavoring though, FlavourArt is the one that has provided testing before. So I'm not trying to discredit their whole line, they are one of the best companies out there, but this experience didn't live up to my expectations.
 

Smoky Blue

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So in this one most recent instance, they would not provide proof that they did testing. Out of the two culprits for flavoring though, FlavourArt is the one that has provided testing before. So I'm not trying to discredit their whole line, they are one of the best companies out there, but this experience didn't live up to my expectations.


that is a shame, VS.. makes me wonder why they wouldnt stand up.. its not a discredit you did..
but i think we should either get them to test or test ourselves.. i dont know.. i am just a broke girl..
however.. all this about fa being all that.. and refusing to show results.. makes me think it needs to happen.
not discrediting either.. but.. when a company wont talk, there is a reason. when a customer asks questions,
id rather go with a company that will take the time and sit and talk to me until i am satisfied.
 

The Vape Space

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that is a shame, VS.. makes me wonder why they wouldnt stand up.. its not a discredit you did..
but i think we should either get them to test or test ourselves.. i dont know.. i am just a broke girl..
however.. all this about fa being all that.. and refusing to show results.. makes me think it needs to happen.
not discrediting either.. but.. when a company wont talk, there is a reason. when a customer asks questions,
id rather go with a company that will take the time and sit and talk to me until i am satisfied.

Yes Smoky, it's very disheartening, because we really value each customer's concerns. However, I do realize that the scale they are operating at is much larger, so it's not an apples to apples comparison. Hopefully in the future, they will be as transparent as they were when I contacted them the first time. In the mean time, I will continue to use certain flavors from them, and get every new juice tested as a safety protocol - while it does get costly, it's worth it for all of us who vape.
 

Smoky Blue

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larger.. you mean for food?? ;) lol..

it'd be nice to find a company made for us vapors, run by us vapors and wide open on factual knowledge about their juices and flavors..
either for diy or consumption. it'd be nice to talk as mature people on these topics too, but i dont see that happening with cliques and fan clubs..

Id really like to get a few of the fa flavors tested.. i dont have the funds for it.. but i'd love to know more than what they are giving out..
due to that.. I may do like one of my friends and go back to just menthol and vg..

its getting sadder.. the things and people one trusts.. but knowing there is always a way to test something... is the best..
 

The Vape Space

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larger.. you mean for food?? ;) lol..

it'd be nice to find a company made for us vapors, run by us vapors and wide open on factual knowledge about their juices and flavors..
either for diy or consumption. it'd be nice to talk as mature people on these topics too, but i dont see that happening with cliques and fan clubs..

Id really like to get a few of the fa flavors tested.. i dont have the funds for it.. but i'd love to know more than what they are giving out..
due to that.. I may do like one of my friends and go back to just menthol and vg..

its getting sadder.. the things and people one trusts.. but knowing there is always a way to test something... is the best..


Lmao

The Flavor Apprentice, and FlavourArt are really catering to us, because they realize that this is a huge demographic for them, but they are not going to cater simply to vapers for a couple reasons. 1) The money isn't there, yet. (2) Vaping is blacklisted by many payment gateways, and the FDA keeps wanting to get in on it. This makes investing in a large scale flavoring operation a little harder, as keeping it afloat will only be made harder by the regulatory burden.

I have noticed that many vaping circles do not wanna discuss some of the real threats in their juice... I mean, I hit their juice, and I ask them to smell the bottle and it's a very buttery smell and taste, that should be a red flag for anyone who has a degree of foresight. However, they don't, it's almost as if breaking some people of that mindset will be as hard as getting them to quit smoking. We need them though, because that market demand can be met in a relatively easy fashion.

As for Flavor art, I have gotten a couple of their flavors tested - mostly fruits, but meringue, custard, and vienna cream were on the list and they checked out A-OK, so if you love DIYing, and don't wanna pay for the testing, I can say with certainty that these normally diketone riddled flavors, are clear of Diacetyl, and Acetyl Propionyl.
 

Smoky Blue

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Lmao

The Flavor Apprentice, and FlavourArt are really catering to us, because they realize that this is a huge demographic for them, but they are not going to cater simply to vapers for a couple reasons. 1) The money isn't there, yet. (2) Vaping is blacklisted by many payment gateways, and the FDA keeps wanting to get in on it. This makes investing in a large scale flavoring operation a little harder, as keeping it afloat will only be made harder by the regulatory burden.

I have noticed that many vaping circles do not wanna discuss some of the real threats in their juice... I mean, I hit their juice, and I ask them to smell the bottle and it's a very buttery smell and taste, that should be a red flag for anyone who has a degree of foresight. However, they don't, it's almost as if breaking some people of that mindset will be as hard as getting them to quit smoking. We need them though, because that market demand can be met in a relatively easy fashion.

As for Flavor art, I have gotten a couple of their flavors tested - mostly fruits, but meringue, custard, and vienna cream were on the list and they checked out A-OK, so if you love DIYing, and don't wanna pay for the testing, I can say with certainty that these normally diketone riddled flavors, are clear of Diacetyl, and Acetyl Propionyl.


i have the entire line up of:

tfa
fa
fe
jf
nv
ina
and a smattering of vz

i think I am good.. :)

i also have my own extracts.. yes the tests for d and a/p are good to have done..

but there is a "stink" lately on Acetoin.. hmmmmm... fa is free of that too???
makes me wondah! :)
 

The Vape Space

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but there is a "stink" lately on Acetoin.. hmmmmm... fa is free of that too???
makes me wondah! :)

I can say with a degree of certainty that they would not have Acetoin, because it so easily catalyzes into Diacetyl. I could not afford to pay the extra money per each sample to get tested for Acetoin, because I avoided FW, and other companies that load their juice up with this. Not only is Acetoin a lung harming agent in itself, but it so easily turns to Diacetyl... I mean we both love tobaccos, and if you put ACV in there with anything >1.00 PPM Acetoin I would bet on Diacetyl formation.
 

Smoky Blue

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Actually.. from what Nicvapes has been touting..

Acetoin in pure form does not produce diacetyl.. it is tastless and orderless..
all their juices and flavors are tested, each batch.. and listed on their site..
provided you have a batch number.. they come out clean, but yet they admit it is in there.
Why can other companies not just admit it?

anything less than 100% will make juices test bad.
 

The Vape Space

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If acetoin is in a tasteless and odorless form, it will not be used... So if there is anything being added, it's probably not best to use this as the case. All it takes is for Acetoin to interact with an enzyme in a cooler/more acidic condition and it will more than likely catalyze into diacetyl. This shows the relationship, but it often will happen in the opposite effect direction.

http://metacyc.org/META/NEW-IMAGE?type=ENZYME&object=CPLX-5281

However, I'm not trying to argue with their testing. That's great they're doing that.

Other companies are not doing it, because instead of focusing on aging in oak barrels, trying to make the next scotch, they'll have to focus on rearranging their recipes to produce the safest product.
 

Smoky Blue

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curious tho.. they admit they use it.. but yet it comes out clean.. and with what you are saying.. im still a bit muddled..

i am sorry.. it's this bit here..

All it takes is for Acetoin to interact with an enzyme in a cooler/more acidic condition and it will more than likely catalyze into diacetyl. This shows the relationship, but it often will happen in the opposite effect direction.

http://metacyc.org/META/NEW-IMAGE?type=ENZYME&object=CPLX-5281

wow.. somehow a link got tossed in that quote.. and i get an error on it.. lol..
*shakes head

see by what you are saying, then those tests should come out dirty.. i dont get it..
 

Time

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If acetoin is in a tasteless and odorless form, it will not be used... So if there is anything being added, it's probably not best to use this as the case. All it takes is for Acetoin to interact with an enzyme in a cooler/more acidic condition and it will more than likely catalyze into diacetyl. This shows the relationship, but it often will happen in the opposite effect direction.

http://metacyc.org/META/NEW-IMAGE?type=ENZYME&object=CPLX-5281

However, I'm not trying to argue with their testing. That's great they're doing that.

Other companies are not doing it, because instead of focusing on aging in oak barrels, trying to make the next scotch, they'll have to focus on rearranging their recipes to produce the safest product.


I must not be reading, and comprehending, correctly. I read 54 pages of a report HIC posted recently on the subject and the piece you linked to.

Both indicated to me that diacetyl readily breaks down into acetoin(the piece is about reductase) and while acetoin can catalyze into diacetyl it would do so at a significantly reduced amount, especially if done naturally/randomly. In other words, when diacetyl was adminstered, after metabalism and excretion the diacetyl was reduced to acetoin and the acetoin was further reduced to 2,3-butanediol. I didn't see anything that said when acetoin was administered, significant amounts of diacetyl were found on excretion. I might have missed it, but I don't think so.

And the report HIC posted showed a very significant reduced risk/effect for acetoin as compared to diactyl.

Actually, when I reread it, it says "In addition, the enzyme usually catalyzes the non-reversible conversion of diacetyl to acetoin." To me, that means diacetyl can catalyze to acetion but it is not reversible, meaning acetion cannot catalyze into diacetyl with the enzyme.

What am I missing?
 

Smoky Blue

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oh boy.. lol.. i just finished talking to someone on this and thought i had my head wrapped on it too.. and now..

gee thanks Time.. i am now as lost once again.. *bangs head here :p

you have me there.. lost..
 

The Vape Space

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They could be
I must not be reading, and comprehending, correctly. I read 54 pages of a report HIC posted recently on the subject and the piece you linked to.

Both indicated to me that diacetyl readily breaks down into acetoin(the piece is about reductase) and while acetoin can catalyze into diacetyl it would do so at a significantly reduced amount, especially if done naturally/randomly. In other words, when diacetyl was adminstered, after metabalism and excretion the diacetyl was reduced to acetoin and the acetoin was further reduced to 2,3-butanediol. I didn't see anything that said when acetoin was administered, significant amounts of diacetyl were found on excretion. I might have missed it, but I don't think so.

And the report HIC posted showed a very significant reduced risk/effect for acetoin as compared to diactyl.

Actually, when I reread it, it says "In addition, the enzyme usually catalyzes the non-reversible conversion of diacetyl to acetoin." To me, that means diacetyl can catalyze to acetion but it is not reversible, meaning acetion cannot catalyze into diacetyl with the enzyme.

What am I missing?

With regards to the last part, in the original post I didn't clarify this, but I will now - the non-reversible conversion means that once the enzyme and ketone catalyze they do not change their form. It would just take the right chemical environment, and a different enzyme for acetoin to catalyze into diacetyl - more than likely in an irreversible conversion.

There is a relationship there that one must be weary of, as Acetoin is an intermediate for the big D.
 

Smoky Blue

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thanks Vs..

now another question..
does this form even if there is no acv added, or are there other substances that will cause this too, and are they known?
 

The Vape Space

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thanks Vs..

now another question..
does this form even if there is no acv added, or are there other substances that will cause this too, and are they known?

It can form even if there is no ACV added, conditions for this to catalyze include, but not limited to, lowered temperature, and lower PH. This is normally brought about by ACV, or something else lowering the PH, but in my experience a significant quantity of Acetoin will bring about Diacetyl, even without ACV.

I know this is a sort of non-answer, but I cannot make a universal list :(
 

Time

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They could be


With regards to the last part, in the original post I didn't clarify this, but I will now - the non-reversible conversion means that once the enzyme and ketone catalyze they do not change their form. It would just take the right chemical environment, and a different enzyme for acetoin to catalyze into diacetyl - more than likely in an irreversible conversion.

Acetoin is less harmful than diacetyl, but there is a relationship there that one must be weary of, as Acetoin is an intermediate for the big D.

Ah. I knew I was missing something. Just a heads up, I have a couple more questions and don't want to sound arguementative, just trying to understand the concern. Not trying to change minds.

So, when manufacturing a flavor using acetion, testing the final product should reveal if any catalyzing took place and if diacetyl is present, right?
 

Smoky Blue

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Ah. I knew I was missing something. Just a heads up, I have a couple more questions and don't want to sound arguementative, just trying to understand the concern. Not trying to change minds.

So, when manufacturing a flavor using acetion, testing the final product should reveal if any catalyzing took place and if diacetyl is present, right?


from what i understand.. and i have no chem degrees.. yes.

right, Vs??
 

Time

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Heh. I reread my question and it's kind of silly and answers itself. :oops:

I guess what I'm asking, is the concern that the acetoin will catalyze into diacetyl after testing or in the body?
 

The Vape Space

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Ah. I knew I was missing something. Just a heads up, I have a couple more questions and don't want to sound arguementative, just trying to understand the concern. Not trying to change minds.

So, when manufacturing a flavor using acetion, testing the final product should reveal if any catalyzing took place and if diacetyl is present, right?

You're good man, I knew you weren't.

The final product may not contain it, if it shows that it does not, it does not mean that when you go to mix it with other flavors that they will not catalyze into diacetyl. It's something where at that point it's very important to know how much Acetoin is present in those flavorings.
 

Time

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You're good man, I knew you weren't.

The final product may not contain it, if it shows that it does not, it does not mean that when you go to mix it with other flavors that they will not catalyze into diacetyl. It's something where at that point it's very important to know how much Acetoin is present in those flavorings.

That makes sense. Thanks for you time explaining this to me.

I would tend tend to think that even with a catalyst during the mixing of an end product, a vapeable juice, the total acetoin amount catalyzed would would be a fraction of the acetoin present. Which is moot if someone is concerned anyway.

This brings me to another question. Why would a flavor that does not contain Acetoin or Diacetyl need to be tested for diacetyl? What is the point?
 

Smoky Blue

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I would tend tend to think that even with a catalyst during the mixing of an end product, a vapeable juice, the total acetoin amount catalyzed would would be a fraction of the acetoin present. Which is moot if someone is concerned anyway.

this is a good bit to know, too..

and yes.. thanks, Time for asking what I can't put into words.. :)

I really want to learn about this stuff.. but if the above is so microscopic, and the juice/flavors are testing clean..
the amount of acetoin must be itty bitty too..

like my friend said.. since it's so itty bitty, why have it in there to even start with.. ?

am i saying this right??
 

tick22

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Thing is, i did not start this thread to make others ticked or mad at me..
i hope every one realizes this.. it'd hurt me to think that anyone got mad..
have been thinking on this all night..

i'd rather us all be safe than sorry 40 years from now.. if we are still around..

as far as anything else.. if i see it, i will post it..

if any one thinks this is bad.. just wait for the fda and other abc run agencies will become..
remember.. some one always can be traced back to a money trail :)


I hope to God, I am not alive 40 years from now. sheesh, the way this country is going, no thanks. yes I am older than most here, so I should be gone soon and sooner if the Government has anything to do with it...

smiles. don't worry I have lived a very exciting life, more than most...
 

The Vape Space

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That makes sense. Thanks for you time explaining this to me.

I would tend tend to think that even with a catalyst during the mixing of an end product, a vapeable juice, the total acetoin amount catalyzed would would be a fraction of the acetoin present. Which is moot if someone is concerned anyway.

This brings me to another question. Why would a flavor that does not contain Acetoin or Diacetyl need to be tested for diacetyl? What is the point?

Any time man!

As for the last question, there is a multi faceted answer with some more questions to be postulated. Personally, I'm always skeptical. When you're dealing with thousands of chemical compounds, and people's health is at stake, you really don't want to take chances.

If flavorings do not contain acetoin, acetyl propionyl, or diacetyl though through carbonyl assay, or whatever testing methods deemed acceptable, it's a safe bet to assume your final product will be clear. There are lesser diketones, but these are the big three we are concerned with, and you should be good to go.
 

The Vape Space

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this is a good bit to know, too..

and yes.. thanks, Time for asking what I can't put into words.. :)

I really want to learn about this stuff.. but if the above is so microscopic, and the juice/flavors are testing clean..
the amount of acetoin must be itty bitty too..

like my friend said.. since it's so itty bitty, why have it in there to even start with.. ?

am i saying this right??

Yes, they put them in there to begin with because they aided in the flavorings so much, and since people weren't inhaling them, ehh not a big deal. Hell, diacetyl is in apples. But now it's like they are scrambling for edges on the flavor, and with so much apathy from a large segment of the vaping community, most manufacturers are responding to the apathetic demand.
 

Time

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this is a good bit to know, too..

and yes.. thanks, Time for asking what I can't put into words.. :)

I really want to learn about this stuff.. but if the above is so microscopic, and the juice/flavors are testing clean..
the amount of acetoin must be itty bitty too..

like my friend said.. since it's so itty bitty, why have it in there to even start with.. ?

am i saying this right??

Well, yeah. Each person can have an opinion on whether or not the amount(or a amount) is acceptable. I understand that some folks can have legitimate concerns.

Disclosure seems to be the bigger issue and there seems to be allot of confusion and misinformation going around. Some of this, at least here, I can't wrap my head around because it appears to be more of a personality conflict with individuals and less to do with actual vendors and flavors. I'm actually confused about what people want as far as disclosure because it changes from thread to thread based on vendor prefferance.
 

Smoky Blue

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Well, yeah. Each person can have an opinion on whether or not the amount(or a amount) is acceptable. I understand that some folks can have legitimate concerns.

Disclosure seems to be the bigger issue and there seems to be allot of confusion and misinformation going around. Some of this, at least here, I can't wrap my head around because it appears to be more of a personality conflict with individuals and less to do with actual vendors and flavors. I'm actually confused about what people want as far as disclosure because it changes from thread to thread based on vendor prefferance.


i agree. i hear it is ok, then i hear it is not..
and omg if you do admit that it has it in something.. be prepared to be ostracized.. :(

just no win for anyone.
 

The Vape Space

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I realize that people have subjective preferences, and that there are trade offs within these for people as far as quality/cost/flavor/etc. All I want is full disclosure, I don't care if they're AP/Diac/Ace/ free, I just wanna know how much is in there, so that I can make choices accordingly.
 

RocketPuppy

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I realize that people have subjective preferences, and that there are trade offs within these for people as far as quality/cost/flavor/etc. All I want is full disclosure, I don't care if they're AP/Diac/Ace/ free, I just wanna know how much is in there, so that I can make choices accordingly.
Amen

Thank you @The Vape Space for explaining things so coherently. I've been wanting to post, but work has been hectic. Anyhow, I really appreciate how clear and concise you explained this, especially for the likes of me.
 

The Vape Space

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I appreciate it man!

The more we all understand these things, the more the industry can begin to change.
 

Smoky Blue

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but if i get this.. if acetoin is in there, even a tiny bit and someone had said a few posts up.. that it didnt matter..
it wouldnt effect anything, then why should the industry change at all? if it wont hurt, why stress on it and cause others grief?
 

Time

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I realize that people have subjective preferences, and that there are trade offs within these for people as far as quality/cost/flavor/etc. All I want is full disclosure, I don't care if they're AP/Diac/Ace/ free, I just wanna know how much is in there, so that I can make choices accordingly.

I just want to thank you again for taking the time to converse with me. You've taken the mud(confusion) out of the topic for me and I greatly appreciate it.
 

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