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Just curious about "bad" flavors..


The Vape Space

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No problem Time, I love this stuff!

Smoky, you're exactly right, if there is a very small amount, it isn't worth a big worry. What does need to change is the disclosure of it. If I can see through third party testing that there is small amounts, then I have a more informed opinion. It will also tend to influence competition to disintegrate the use of diketones. However, if it continues to be "take us at our word," then it's a tough cookie for me to swallow.
 

Smoky Blue

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No problem Time, I love this stuff!

Smoky, you're exactly right, if there is a very small amount, it isn't worth a big worry. What does need to change is the disclosure of it. If I can see through third party testing that there is small amounts, then I have a more informed opinion. It will also tend to influence competition to disintegrate the use of diketones. However, if it continues to be take use at our word, then it's a tough cookie for me to swallow.


now this, i understand and agree with totally..

if it is ok in our juice.. and people admit it, fine.. but if not.. like a few known companies.. then i can understand that too.
 

The Vape Space

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Curiosity peeked RocketPuppy o_O

now this, i understand and agree with totally..

if it is ok in our juice.. and people admit it, fine.. but if not.. like a few known companies.. then i can understand that too.

Yep, that's really all I'd like for Christmas. Some god damn transparency.
 

Smoky Blue

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rp originally said:

From what has been said and at looking at the reports, even a minute amount of Acetoin is harmful.

hmm... so now that we know in pure form, its orderless and tasteless.. how would you really know it is in there, without a company admitting or testing for it.??

Curiosity peeked RocketPuppy o_O



Yep, that's really all I'd like for Christmas. Some god damn transparency.


and some damn peace joy and happiness.
 

RocketPuppy

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No problem Time, I love this stuff!

Smoky, you're exactly right, if there is a very small amount, it isn't worth a big worry. What does need to change is the disclosure of it. If I can see through third party testing that there is small amounts, then I have a more informed opinion. It will also tend to influence competition to disintegrate the use of diketones. However, if it continues to be "take us at our word," then it's a tough cookie for me to swallow.
In the published reports, it seemed as though it was a cause for concern. If we're adding other compounds into a mix, even with a minute amount of Acetoin, and it catalyzes into a higher percentage of Diacetyl, then it seems as though we really don't know how potentially harmful it could be. Unless we're testing our mixes after we've added everything, can we actually come to any conclusion as to the detriment?
 

RocketPuppy

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Curiosity peeked RocketPuppy o_O



Yep, that's really all I'd like for Christmas. Some god damn transparency.
Lol. I posted something, but then your answer made me question something else. =)
 

The Vape Space

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rp originally said:

From what has been said and at looking at the reports, even a minute amount of Acetoin is harmful.

hmm... so now that we know in pure form, its orderless and tasteless.. how would you really know it is in there, without a company admitting or testing for it.??




and some damn peace joy and happiness.


So what's very important to consider when we are looking at the common reports on diketones, is that they are referring to cubic meters in the air quite often, and the numbers we look for in tests are parts per mililiter, these two are very different, and once we sort out which is which we can sort out what can reasonably be called 'safe'.
 

Smoky Blue

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but if the flavorings are tested for it, before mixing... and are proven clean....

why would they change afterwards?
provided it is in minuet amounts.

and why is there not anyone selling these test kits out to us?
the do with nic kits.. why not this?
 

Smoky Blue

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So what's very important to consider when we are looking at the common reports on diketones, is that they are referring to cubic meters in the air quite often, and the numbers we look for in tests are parts per mililiter, these two are very different, and once we sort out which is which we can sort out what can reasonably be called 'safe'.


ya think? and can this be done?
 

The Vape Space

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Testing for diketones would be very hard, and the margin of error would be too large at first to be taken seriously, but once it was appropriately developed (although expensive) it could be a powerful product.

I was saying the content would change once mixing with others, and changing the the chemical environment, since you're a DIYer I take this into consideration.
 

Smoky Blue

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Testing for diketones would be very hard, and the margin of error would be too large at first to be taken seriously, but once it was appropriately developed (although expensive) it could be a powerful product.

I was saying the content would change once mixing with others, and changing the the chemical environment, since you're a DIYer I take this into consideration.


but say i did not change the php in the flavoring.. only diluting it and adding other flavoring, without acetoin.. that still would not effect a thing..
am i right? so if it wont change, after knowing it is in there.. and it is proven it is not harmful.. it really shouldnt matter at all. it should not cause any diacetyl, or other by products.. it is the knowing it is there, again..
 

Time

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In the published reports, it seemed as though it was a cause for concern. If we're adding other compounds into a mix, even with a minute amount of Acetoin, and it catalyzes into a higher percentage of Diacetyl, then it seems as though we really don't know how potentially harmful it could be. Unless we're testing our mixes after we've added everything, can we actually come to any conclusion as to the detriment?

I'm not sure what you mean. Acetoin at say, 1%(just using a simple number) can't catalyze into any more than 1% diacetyl and it would be highly unlikely to get that far.
 

Smoky Blue

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and you are right Vs.. this can keep going on and on, but until a vendor decides to help us out..
we are stuck on this merry go round..
 

The Vape Space

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but say i did not change the php in the flavoring.. only diluting it and adding other flavoring, without acetoin.. that still would not effect a thing..
am i right? so if it wont change, after knowing it is in there.. and it is proven it is not harmful.. it really shouldnt matter at all. it should not cause any diacetyl, or other by products.. it is the knowing it is there, again..

You'd be fine then :)
 

The Vape Space

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I'm not sure what you mean. Acetoin at say, 1%(just using a simple number) can't catalyze into any more than 1% diacetyl and it would be highly unlikely to get that far.

I think what he is saying is that it is catalyzing into a higher percentage relative to the juices overall levels, not relative to the acetoin.

Could be wrong, but that's how I read it.
 

RocketPuppy

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I'm not sure what you mean. Acetoin at say, 1%(just using a simple number) can't catalyze into any more than 1% diacetyl and it would be highly unlikely to get that far.
I hope it would be 1%. That would be:
1% = .01 = 10 parts per thousand = 10,000 ppm

Definitely don't want that!!!
 

RocketPuppy

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I think what he is saying is that it is catalyzing into a higher percentage relative to the juices overall levels, not relative to the acetoin.

Could be wrong, but that's how I read it.
Not relative, but I'm a she =)
 

VelvetA

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He was a comprehensive pronoun until Tumblr :(
LOL, F'n Tumblr

And thanks for all the info, Vape Space - very illuminating and appreciated. For me, I'm fine with vaping liquids containing ap and/or acetoin. However, one thing that I am big on is disclosure and informed consent ( which applies to most things in life, really). That's why I appreciate something like ECX offering FA's yogurt flavor. They don't ban it from the site because it contains acetoin or whatever, they label it as 'not recommended for vaping' - so those who are avoiding those things can steer clear, and someone like me who doesn't mind, can still purchase it (it was, in fact, in my last order from them :) ). That being said, knowing what's in it would also keep me from using it in large quantities or from having it as an EDV. Again, informed consent.
 

RocketPuppy

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LOL, F'n Tumblr

And thanks for all the info, Vape Space - very illuminating and appreciated. For me, I'm fine with vaping liquids containing ap and/or acetoin. However, one thing that I am big on is disclosure and informed consent ( which applies to most things in life, really). That's why I appreciate something like ECX offering FA's yogurt flavor. They don't ban it from the site because it contains acetoin or whatever, they label it as 'not recommended for vaping' - so those who are avoiding those things can steer clear, and someone like me who doesn't mind, can still purchase it (it was, in fact, in my last order from them :) ). That being said, knowing what's in it would also keep me from using it in large quantities or from having it as an EDV. Again, informed consent.
Well said.
 

Time

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I think what he is saying is that it is catalyzing into a higher percentage relative to the juices overall levels, not relative to the acetoin.

Could be wrong, but that's how I read it.

If the acetoin is minimal as in the context of the discussion, the catalyzed percentage would be insignificant. In other words, she appears to have a zero tollerance policy and thinks everyone else needs to adopt it. I'm not buying.
 

Smoky Blue

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that is what i have been saying all along, Time..
good thing it isnt just me thinking that.
 

LoveVanilla

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True dat, but remember that we're talking about acceptable limits being measured in PPM. Thus even 1% is a massive dose.
 

Time

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True dat, but remember that we're talking about acceptable limits being measured in PPM. Thus even 1% is a massive dose.

1% was never supposed to be a real number. Just a quick down and dirty example. The point doesn't change whether I use 1% or 10% or 0.00000000001%

The catalyzed amount will be a fraction of the total and when the total is fraction to begin with the catalyzed amount become insignificant unless the goal is zero percent. If zero percent is desired, zero acetoin is required. That's a different subject.
 

RocketPuppy

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she appears to have a zero tollerance policy and thinks everyone else needs to adopt it. I'm not buying.
Me? What the heck? I asked a question. How does that imply I have a zero tolerance policy or think everyone should adopt it? I don't understand from where this is coming.


The only thing of which I am intolerant is deceit and non-disclosure.
 
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Time

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Me? What the heck? I asked a question. How does that imply I have a zero tolerance policy or think everyone should adopt it? I don't understand from where this is coming.


The only thing of which I am intolerant is deceit and non-disclosure.

Your comment that acetoin is as equally as harmful as diacetyl and your comments that 'unfortunately' companies are replacing diacetyl with acetion led me to believe you have a zero tolerance policy. It stands to reason that if you believe they are equally harmful, you won't use either one.
 

RocketPuppy

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Your comment that acetoin is as equally as harmful as diacetyl and your comments that 'unfortunately' companies are replacing diacetyl with acetion led me to believe you have a zero tolerance policy. It stands to reason that if you believe they are equally harmful, you won't use either one.
I'm still not sure how asking about a chemical equates to having zero tolerance. What bothers me most was the comment that I think "everyone else needs to adopt" what I think. I haven't even expressed my opinion in this thread.
 
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Time

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I'm still not sure how asking about a chemical equates to having zero tolerance. What bothers me most was the comment that I think "everyone else needs to adopt" what I think. I haven't even expressed my opinion in this thread.

In your opinion, is acetoin acceptable in a flavor at any amount?
 

LoveVanilla

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Acetoin is very similar to diacetyl, and a know lung irritant. And heat (amongst other factors) will cause a conversion to diacetyl. And if you do the research, you'll find nearly every report on diacetyl also warns on acetoin.

So no, it is not acceptable in ejuice without full disclosure. Nobody wants that crap in their ejuice any more than they want diacetyl or acetyl propionyl. And any supplier pretending that acetoin is acceptable is either ignorant or dishonest.
 

Time

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Acetoin is very similar to diacetyl, and a know lung irritant. And heat (amongst other factors) will cause a conversion to diacetyl. And if you do the research, you'll find nearly every report on diacetyl also warns on acetoin.

So no, it is not acceptable in ejuice without full disclosure. Nobody wants that crap in their ejuice any more than they want diacetyl or acetyl propionyl. And any supplier pretending that acetoin is acceptable is either ignorant or dishonest.

Now there is a good example of misinformation. Just because you read something on the internet does not make it true.

I have read the actual reports given so far and your claims are simply not true.

At this time, there is not a single thing that says short or long term inhalation of acetoin at the levels found in flavors cause any negative health affects. Not one. Even diacetyl is just a "maybe". No one actually knows if any of them are harmful at all. To state anything different is misinformation or as you put it, ignorant or dishonest. ;)
 

RocketPuppy

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In your opinion, is acetoin acceptable in a flavor at any amount?
I smoked for years, and I knew the risks involved since each pack was nicely labelled with the hazards. Whether someone chooses to use flavors with Diketones or not is up to personal preference. What I am concerned with, like many who have already posted, is if a company is claiming to be 100% transparent and safe, then they need easily accessible analysis to confirm this.

When I'm not at work, I am a chain vaper. Because of this, I try to stay away from Diketones since I go through a ton of juice. I imagine that there are some that contain what I try to avoid, and I use very low percentages of flavorings to account for this. With that said, in no way do I want or think others should believe in my ideologies or idiosyncrasies. Please don't implicate me in trying to coerce others into buying my logic.
 

The Vape Space

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I think what we will end up rounding off too is what is an 'acceptable risk', this is inherently subjective preference. Hell, I know people who prefer not to drive because it's not acceptable to them. With some people it's organic juice, with me it's the diketones.
 

wllmc

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for me its anything gluten free or fat free. dont give me that crap lol. I just hope full disclosure is a trending thing. I checked out your website @thevapespace pretty awesome. I hope others follow your lead.
 

Time

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I smoked for years, and I knew the risks involved since each pack was nicely labelled with the hazards. Whether someone chooses to use flavors with Diketones or not is up to personal preference. What I am concerned with, like many who have already posted, is if a company is claiming to be 100% transparent and safe, then they need easily accessible analysis to confirm this.

When I'm not at work, I am a chain vaper. Because of this, I try to stay away from Diketones since I go through a ton of juice. I imagine that there are some that contain what I try to avoid, and I use very low percentages of flavorings to account for this. With that said, in no way do I want or think others should believe in my ideologies or idiosyncrasies. Please don't implicate me in trying to coerce others into buying my logic.

Good explanation. Thanks for that.

I have yet to see a company use the word "safe" for their product no matter what it contained.
 

The Vape Space

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for me its anything gluten free or fat free. dont give me that crap lol. I just hope full disclosure is a trending thing. I checked out your website @thevapespace pretty awesome. I hope others follow your lead.

We hope so too, it's not what we would see as a market edge in and of itself, it's really the beginning of market self regulation.

I appreciate the positive feedback man!
 

RocketPuppy

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@Smoky Blue - I've finally had time to read through the entirety of this thread. I do not ask to pick on you or argue. I really am just curious. I noticed that you use some of VZ/Baker's flavors among others that contain Diketones. Are you looking into this information for the sake of others, or are you trying to move away from these flavors? Or?
 

Smoky Blue

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I am trying to clean up my juice, RP..

and my New Years Resolution is to go thru my 6+ gigs of recipes and work on giving them a clean up and out..
not just for me, but when i pass them around, or if i find some special ones.. i hope to convert them to cleaner flavorings..

i swear they replicate when i shut my pc down at night. :)
 

RocketPuppy

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Makes sense. Have you seen the Baker's Diacetyl breakdown? It's crazy how high some of their flavors are.
 

Smoky Blue

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Makes sense. Have you seen the Baker's Diacetyl breakdown? It's crazy how high some of their flavors are.


i have, however, i do not pass a lot of my recipes for them.. mainly because they are mixed up..
and the other is what is in them, however.. i vape them when at times i forget about my pg allergies..
they are about the only things i can vape with a raw throat..

and yes i got laughed at tonight because i sound so bad..
its funny but it is not.. allergies are nothing to play with..
and this is yet another reason why i search out new companies and try a bunch out..
 

RocketPuppy

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i have, however, i do not pass a lot of my recipes for them.. mainly because they are mixed up..
and the other is what is in them, however.. i vape them when at times i forget about my pg allergies..
they are about the only things i can vape with a raw throat..

and yes i got laughed at tonight because i sound so bad..
its funny but it is not.. allergies are nothing to play with..
and this is yet another reason why i search out new companies and try a bunch out..
You only vape vg flavors?
 

Smoky Blue

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i can go as high as 5% in pg.. then it aggravates me.. the higher pg i go, the worse it gets..
vg and alcohol flavorings are safe for me..

otherwise i sound like i have been to a rock concert for a month and feels like sandpaper down my throat..
takes about a week to recover.. and sad thing is i get excited on hearing new flavors.. and well
i had a big dose this past week..
 

RocketPuppy

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I am trying to clean up my juice, RP..

and my New Years Resolution is to go thru my 6+ gigs of recipes
6 gigs? You realize each gig is about 10,000 documents. You have 60,000 recipes?
 

Smoky Blue

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giggles mhmm.. ;)

i have been collecting for a long time, RP..
and what i havent collected, i made.. and what is not made, is notes ;)
 

RocketPuppy

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giggles mhmm.. ;)

i have been collecting for a long time, RP..
and what i havent collected, i made.. and what is not made, is notes ;)
Uh...the bible is less than a gig
 

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