Become a Patron!

FDA REGULATIONS: DON'T PANIC!


VaporJoe

_ the end has arrived _
Staff member
VU Owner
VU Senior Leadership
VU Senior Administrator
Senior Moderator
VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Press Corps
ECF Refugee
Vape Media
Member For 5 Years
Reddit Exile
VU Patreon



The FDA has made their regulations and the news is grim. Those in power have proven that despite the rapidly growing mass of proof that vaping is a very positive thing, they will stubbornly keep their heads in their nether regions, and their hands in the pockets of those with vested interests that oppose vaping.

As bad as it looks, this is not the time to panic or give up. We still have plenty of time to fight, and with every passing day more research emerges to support us, and our voice grows louder. This is the time to support the industry, and spread the message to convert more smokers. The bigger we are, the harder we are to ignore.

Two years to the day we posted this as a trailer before VU opened...



But no matter what the future brings, there will always be a safe place for vapers to communicate, and share information and ideas. The Vaping Underground Forum was created in no small part to secure the future of vaping, one way or another. The VaporJoes Network has been working hard to ensure that our infrastructures and services are safely out of the reach of USA or FDA regulations. We're here to stay, so that your best source for vaping information will continue to be a thriving hub for anyone who has made their choice to embrace this path to tobacco harm reduction.

So get to the Underground, and bring your still-smoking friends with you. We've got plenty of room for everyone, and we're not going anywhere.
 
Last edited:

KnurledNut

Founding Vendor
Founding Vendor
VU Vendor
Member For 4 Years
Show Host
The regulations go into effect in 90 days, but manufacturers will have 2 years to get their products approved. While getting devices approved isn't as numerous as e-liquids, it will be a daunting task. Through the review process, manufacturers would be required to submit separate applications for every e-cigarette, different flavor, and nicotine level.

Here's a kicker...no more free samples. Ack! Are the ever popular vape bars doomed? Will the famous give-away shows on Vapers.tv go by the wayside as well?

Time will tell.
 

VaporJoe

_ the end has arrived _
Staff member
VU Owner
VU Senior Leadership
VU Senior Administrator
Senior Moderator
VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Press Corps
ECF Refugee
Vape Media
Member For 5 Years
Reddit Exile
VU Patreon
"E-liquids that do not contain tobacco or nicotine or are not derived from tobacco or nicotine do not meet the definition
of "covered tobacco product," as described throughout this final rule, and will not be required to carry an addiction warning or to submit a self-certification."

I think zero nic free samples are still ok..
 

Nailz

FUCK the FDA
VU Donator
Gold Contributor
Member For 5 Years
"E-liquids that do not contain tobacco or nicotine or are not derived from tobacco or nicotine do not meet the definition
of "covered tobacco product," as described throughout this final rule, and will not be required to carry an addiction warning or to submit a self-certification."

I think zero nic free samples are still ok..

So juice companies could still sell 0mg juice, and customers could add their own nic?
 

outwest

VU Donator
Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
The insane thing about it, the only eliquid that was on the market early enough to be exempt, is Boge/Dekang's. *shaking head*
 

outwest

VU Donator
Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
The insane thing about it, the only eliquid that was on the market early enough to be exempt, is Boge/Dekang's. *shaking head*
Cant edit, so having to reply to own post. Wanted to edit to add: At least, from my recollection, Dekang was being sold by a few in 07. There used to be a tiny wholesale shop in Denver, near the wholesale Mart, that had the 801 pen and an assortment of eliquid from Dekang. And, while I could be mistaken, I'd swear it was back in 2007. Unfortunately, that place has long since closed down, so no way to verify from them. :(

If I'm correct, though, it's absolutely nuts that Dekang eliquid would be exempt, but eliquid made here, in the U.S., has to go through all sorts of testing.
 

Barbara E.

VU Donator
Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Unlisted Vendor
"E-liquids that do not contain tobacco or nicotine or are not derived from tobacco or nicotine do not meet the definition
of "covered tobacco product," as described throughout this final rule, and will not be required to carry an addiction warning or to submit a self-certification."

I think zero nic free samples are still ok..

From the live blog at vaping.com, page 222 of the regulations states...

"Nicotine-free e-liquid that is intended or reasonably expected to be used with or for the human consumption of tobacco products in most cases would be a component or part of a tobacco product and, therefore, within the scope of this rule. These products will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. (p222)"

Since I don't speak legalese, I'm not exactly sure what this means but I don't like the sound of it..
 

suprtrkr

Bronze Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
ECF Refugee
Thank you, Joe, for all you have done and will continue to do. Neither do I consider this the end of the road. Writing regulations is one thing, enforcing them is another. Yes, prices will go up, and quality will go down, just as always. Yes. many people will be sentenced to death because they couldn't get the help they need. But vaping will not die. Garage mechanics will make mods and attys. Nicotine will be smuggled across the border. Chinese manufacturers will become adept at mislabeling things. All is not lost.

All that said, however, perhaps a bit of panic is in order anyway. It might get some of the dead asses up and have them write their Congresscritter. Even moving the effective date would be a big help.
 

ajaymes2001

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
From the live blog at vaping.com, page 222 of the regulations states...

"Nicotine-free e-liquid that is intended or reasonably expected to be used with or for the human consumption of tobacco products in most cases would be a component or part of a tobacco product and, therefore, within the scope of this rule. These products will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. (p222)"

Since I don't speak legalese, I'm not exactly sure what this means but I don't like the sound of it..

It sounds like they know the black market potential exists (which they do) and are trying to close that loophole from the start. My first thought was to go to selling strictly 0 Nic juice and let my customers add it at their discretion off of my premises. They are wise to that...
 



The FDA has made their regulations and the news is grim. Those in power have proven that despite the rapidly growing mass of proof that vaping is a very positive thing, they will stubbornly keep their heads in their nether regions, and their hands in the pockets of those with vested interests that oppose vaping.

As bad as it looks, this is not the time to panic or give up. We still have plenty of time to fight, and with every passing day more research emerges to support us, and our voice grows louder. This is the time to support the industry, and spread the message to convert more smokers. The bigger we are, the harder we are to ignore.

Two years to the day we posted this as a trailer before VU opened...



But no matter what the future brings, there will always be a safe place for vapers to communicate, and share information and ideas. The Vaping Underground Forum was created in no small part to secure the future of vaping, one way or another. The VaporJoes Network has been working hard to ensure that our infrastructures and services are safely out of the reach of USA or FDA regulations. We're here to stay, so that your best source for vaping information will continue to be a thriving hub for anyone who has made their choice to embrace this path to tobacco harm reduction.

So get to the Underground, and bring your still-smoking friends with you. We've got plenty of room for everyone, and we're not going anywhere.
Thanks for being bee for is! You just gained a new member!
 

Vmember

Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
I hope that soon someone can post a cogent summary of the rules. Yes, where money is concerned, health goes out the window with the FDA. Not sure just how much they're being paid by big tobacco to give them all the ecig business.
 

Zamazam

Evil Vulcan's do it with Logic
VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
I hope that soon someone can post a cogent summary of the rules. Yes, where money is concerned, health goes out the window with the FDA. Not sure just how much they're being paid by big tobacco to give them all the ecig business.
More than you and I and all people on this forum will ever earn in a lifetime....
 

Huckleberried

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Senior Moderator
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 5 Years
VU Patreon
Chinese manufacturers will become adept at mislabeling things. All is not lost.
This kind of scares me, though. You get a Chinese manufacturer labeling nicotine as VG. Some do this NOW with PURE nicotine and have freely admitted so. What happens when that package leaks? That's any number of people health or lives at risk right there.

Believe me, I'm on OUR side, but I would hate to see what happens in that case.
 

suprtrkr

Bronze Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
ECF Refugee
This kind of scares me, though. You get a Chinese manufacturer labeling nicotine as VG. Some do this NOW with PURE nicotine and have freely admitted so. What happens when that package leaks? That's any number of people health or lives at risk right there.

Believe me, I'm on OUR side, but I would hate to see what happens in that case.
Hhhmmm... I had actually intended equipment when I wrote that, Huck, but I quite take your point. The simple fact, however, is the mere existence of the regulations creates a black market, with concurrent incentive to smuggle, and it is a physical fact glacial nic is less bulky than dilute in identical quantity. Thus, it seems to me, the potential deaths are more properly blamed on FDA than anywhere else, just as the deaths that will result by restricted access to effective vaping products. I further think one mitigating factor will be smuggled nic will be very valuable, and will thus be carefully packaged.
 

Jimi D

Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
This kind of scares me, though. You get a Chinese manufacturer labeling nicotine as VG. Some do this NOW with PURE nicotine and have freely admitted so. What happens when that package leaks? That's any number of people health or lives at risk right there.

Believe me, I'm on OUR side, but I would hate to see what happens in that case.
I'm sure its going to happen when (or if) the black market gets in full swing. It's a shame. :(
 

Huckleberried

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Senior Moderator
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 5 Years
VU Patreon
Hhhmmm... I had actually intended equipment when I wrote that, Huck, but I quite take your point. The simple fact, however, is the mere existence of the regulations creates a black market, with concurrent incentive to smuggle, and it is a physical fact glacial nic is less bulky than dilute in identical quantity. Thus, it seems to me, the potential deaths are more properly blamed on FDA than anywhere else, just as the deaths that will result by restricted access to effective vaping products. I further think one mitigating factor will be smuggled nic will be very valuable, and will thus be carefully packaged.
I sure hope so. It's just a scary thought.
 

Mikhail Naumov

VU Donator
Gold Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
ECF Refugee
Unlisted Vendor
On the whole, standing together thing. Let's actually do that and not just, you know, say it. We need to organize something, en mass, and get it going. I don't mean little dinky petitions. We need to fire back to this with everything we have, and if there's one vaping community I feel could do that it's VU. Now is the time of have balls, because soon they'll be cut off.
 
I started vaping one year ago. glad I got in before the regulations kicked in. When I first started I had a tank and an Istick. I said then "this is great - I can get off cigs with this tank... why would anyone want the fuss of dripping?" Then I purchased my first dripper and learned to make coils. My first and favorite juice a year ago was Unicorn Milk. I wondered "why would someone need a bunch of juices/flavors?" then I realized I was a flavor chaser and tried just about every flavor profile. then I wondered "why would anyone want a device more than 50 watts?" Then I purchased a device with more than 50 watts (though rarely vape above 60w). then I wondered why would someone diy juice - that looks to be such a pain in the ass. well clearly that's next. with the new regulations it looks like diy is going to be the way to go. they can't ban the individual juice components. I soooo did not want to earn to DIY juices, but looks like we won't have a choice - only the really big juice companies are going to be able to comply - most of the juices I like are from smaller companies or vape shops.

Last and this is just for vindication - I would bet sales at Provari are going to go through the roof over the next two years. for all the talk about how much ProVape sucks, only 40 watts, no temp control etc etc everyone well sleep better knowing they have a device that will work well for YEARS. Now if someone can just convince them to rush out a dual 18650 100w mod in the next couple of months - that would be great.
 

Mikhail Naumov

VU Donator
Gold Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
ECF Refugee
Unlisted Vendor
Fuck Provape, you can buy OKL T-20 110W and Raptor 120W DC-DC converters for the rest of time because those have NOTHING to do with vaping. Or just rig up a 555 and make a PWM setup. They can't killing modding, they can't even really kill DIY juice making, it's RDA's/RTA's I worry about.
 

f1r3b1rd

Phantom Pilot
Staff member
Senior Moderator
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
VU Challenge Team
Member For 5 Years
VU Patreon
Well, I was hoping to see this thread at minimum stay unifying,
Guess that was wishful thinking,

Not everyone knows what you are talking about, some of us have backgrounds in electronics and are engineers, Not all. those of us vaping now and hobbyists are fine. we will be ok. but the future vapor, future ex-smoker, needs our help. we need to fight for them, for their families. So that they can have more time with their children. this tootlepuffer vs cloudchaser shit is part of the reason we are in the spot today. If we don't stick together and learn to help those fighting for us, there will be no future vapors.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Mikhail Naumov

VU Donator
Gold Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
ECF Refugee
Unlisted Vendor
I don't care how anyone vapes, I was just saying there will always be channels to take even when the going is as bad as it gets.

We need a game plan. I don't mean sitting here and saying, U CAN DO ETTTT over and over, like we all need to actually get together and do something. I don't care who hates who, who has problems with what, if you even want there to be a time in the future where you can argue over what RDA chucks the s1ckest cl0udz br0 with your buddies you need to pick up a metaphorical weapon and run onto the metaphorical battlefield that we are on right now.
 

Zamazam

Evil Vulcan's do it with Logic
VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
I'm in it to help smokers move to vaping. A 2 pack a day habit like I used to have, or a light smoker that smokes half or a quarter a pack a day, my goal always has been to promote vaping as an alternative, not a super safe panacea, but an alternative to smoking. Harm reduction is what its all about folks. Our politicians and government only care about control and money, same with Big Tobacco and Big Pharma. We have a chance here at VU to unify out voices. All it takes is the will to do so and commitment. Yep, the dreaded C-word.
 
Last edited:

Mikhail Naumov

VU Donator
Gold Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
ECF Refugee
Unlisted Vendor
We need to get on some MENSA shit and bring together a think take to actually get the ball rolling on our side. I think one of the best things we could do is get our fight into the Supreme Court somehow.
 

f1r3b1rd

Phantom Pilot
Staff member
Senior Moderator
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
VU Challenge Team
Member For 5 Years
VU Patreon
I don't care how anyone vapes, I was just saying there will always be channels to take even when the going is as bad as it gets.

We need a game plan. I don't mean sitting here and saying, U CAN DO ETTTT over and over, like we all need to actually get together and do something. I don't care who hates who, who has problems with what, if you even want there to be a time in the future where you can argue over what RDA chucks the s1ckest cl0udz br0 with your buddies you need to pick up a metaphorical weapon and run onto the metaphorical battlefield that we are on right now.
because fuck provape helps who? naming circuit configurations that no one outside of the field understands helps who? none of that is helping.
if you want to help, start by toning down the verbiage. and giving sensible resolutions or at the bare minimum motivate people to start coming together. bashing people or groups like 'fuck provape' and 's1ckest cl0udz br0' does nothing other than add to the already existing polarization among us.
 

Mikhail Naumov

VU Donator
Gold Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
ECF Refugee
Unlisted Vendor
With all due respect I don't think kind words and calm tones are going to be the savior of us all. Like I said, we need an actual plan.
 

outwest

VU Donator
Gold Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
IMHO, congress is the one to blame for their stupid Tobacco Control Act, which the FDA is using as the basis for all of this (and where the Feb 2007 date comes from). Well, ultimately it's the fault of the people for letting congress run wild like they have been, but. . . My state's congressmen have already spoken out in opposition to this fiasco and I've written to ask them to take legislative action to stop it. But, I'm just one voice.
 

MikeyConti

Bronze Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
ECF Refugee
So many Americans have been just sitting back not paying attention to whats going on with the Country, that we dont hold much of the rope anymore. And its not just them attacking Vaping, there's just too much corruption all around.. American's should have NEVER gave the Government the idea that we work and do as they say! It was created to be the other way around! And we need to do whatever it takes to fix it, even if we dont know how yet...
 

MyMagicMist

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
With all due respect I don't think kind words and calm tones are going to be the savior of us all. Like I said, we need an actual plan.

If you have to appeal to all due respect you show you have no respect even for yourself. It is not kind words and calm tones to understand a house divided does not stand. That is simple logistics. All of us using whatever equipment for whatever kind of vaping, need to act together as one unified house.

That means we do not disparage one another by saying nonsense like "fuck Provape". If you do that then you have the provape folks hanging out to dry. Think they'll bother helping you when you may need it? I doubt it, you chose to not include them in our team, our house.

You've no excuse for such ignorance. You were a Marine? You make me feel ill to see how disgraceful Marines are now. They used to have great minds in the Marines, some of the best tacticians in the world actually. But you can not think about the strategy of uniting as vapers so that we can do something tangible, worthy of an effort? Alright. Un-fuck you because to me you're not worth a fuck. Dismissed!

If you respected yourself, you would realize you've no excuse. Excuses are dead horses, Jarhead, go the fuck around them. You got a shit life? Who doesn't? Who cares? Quit putting others down for attempting to get over the hump we're all facing here. Instead why not why not work to lift others up and over? That is what I am doing here and now in writing this to talk directly to fucking slab of meat between your ears some call a brain.

Do I want you pissed off at me? Sure, if it means that in being your target you stop tearing others down. Is there another way? Yes, I can get you thinking, get you understanding what I'm doing. I am engaging you in a way you do understand, balls and all. See? I don't give a fuck how anyone vapes, as long as they're free to choose to vape.

This shit going on attacks all who choose vaping instead of cigarettes. Does it matter if you're some damn rocket scientist vapor or just some hillbilly from podunk? Nope. All of us are about to get fucked, without lube, or even a reach around. All of us, let that sink in. That means the Provape people, that means the Innokin, the Kanger, The Joytech, the "made it in my shop" people.

By the way Leatherneck, you ought to read War Is A Racket if you've not already. It was written by a damn fine Marine, Major General Smedley Butler. What he writes back in 1935 has become very apparently clear, yesterday. Uncle Sam has sold us all up the shit river, brother. You don't need to accept what I say, go check it out yourself. I would expect no less. My point is we need to unite, not to keep bashing on one another. You seem to want to keep bashing. Again, there is no excuse. If you see an excuse, go around it. I know you can think about how to do that.

Marines are not stupid, at least I thought that until I met you. You show me they are stupid by continuing to bash others, by causing us to divide and be more easily picked off by a stronger enemy. So, wake up devil dog, get your dog face on and let us all join together to growl at these fuckers. Hell, growl at me too if you have to. But don't keep bashing others trying to get us moving to attack a common enemy. Unite! That's our rally for now.

Do we have a plan? Well, if we did would I tell you and risk you telling the enemy? Nope. So do we? No we don't because that is the best plan. If you doubt that, look up how the British S.A.S, S.B.S who became the first commando force during WWII operated. Give you a hint, they never made plans. :) It kept everything real simple, secure. Nobody knew when, where, how, why, what, who they would strike. They did strike though and to great success. Big aspect to them, they were united.

So, come join our circle here. Leave the center open, we'll fight back to back. We'll not let anyone with a good sword fall. We will carry ourselves, one and all.
 

Moongirl

Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
ECF Refugee
I agree we need a plan. Are there any lawyers out there in the VU? I've been writing my state's governor senator and representatives they all say they are on our side but I'm not sure. There has to be a loop hole or something and I to want to know why 2007? Why go back to the dark ages? But that's not the point. And why are they making it that the only ejuice available to buy pre made isn't even made here? This may seem childish but what about a petition? Anyone have any other ideas?
 

martnargh

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
You can extract the nic yourself, its not hard.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
 

MyMagicMist

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
I agree we need a plan. Are there any lawyers out there in the VU? I've been writing my state's governor senator and representatives they all say they are on our side but I'm not sure. There has to be a loop hole or something and I to want to know why 2007? Why go back to the dark ages? But that's not the point. And why are they making it that the only ejuice available to buy pre made isn't even made here? This may seem childish but what about a petition? Anyone have any other ideas?

Short of pitchforks and torches?

I think a black market will rise. People will use Tor and find gear, juices, nicotine. People will still retain the power of choice I think, even if it means disobeying unjust laws.

The idea of petitions while to me does not sound helpful, does sound like one way to make an effort. My reason for seeing it not as helpful lies in also not seeing voting as helpful. Our government has rotted from its core. If you want to win an election, you can buy it, or flat out steal it.

Apologies if that sounds negative, defeatist. I am seeing what is though. This is why like you, I also see uniting as important. I might be wrong about petitions, they may work. We may raise our voices in enough unity to force changes. Hope we can.
 

MyMagicMist

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
You can extract the nic yourself, its not hard.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

Does boiling it out work? I'm curious. I would think it would as that's how you can get tussin from 'colt's foot'. Tussin is the chemical used in Robotussin cough syrup. It was first found in the herb I mentioned by common name. Here it is on Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tussilago .
 

StereoFreeze

VU Donator
Bronze Contributor
Member For 3 Years
I agree we need a plan. Are there any lawyers out there in the VU? I've been writing my state's governor senator and representatives they all say they are on our side but I'm not sure. There has to be a loop hole or something and I to want to know why 2007? Why go back to the dark ages? But that's not the point. And why are they making it that the only ejuice available to buy pre made isn't even made here? This may seem childish but what about a petition? Anyone have any other ideas?

http://casaa.org/
 

inspects

Squonkamaniac
Staff member
Senior Moderator
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 5 Years
Count me in to do whatever it takes to stop the FDA, I don't give a damn if we have to parade around the supreme court building VAPING and potentially causing civil disobedience, I'm in.
 
Here are my thoughts:

If you haven't done so: https://wh.gov/iodIQ and http://cqrcengage.com/casaa/app/write-a-letter?2&engagementId=101154

Next download the full Royal College of Physicians report and give it to your doctors, nurses and medical professionals and send them your story. https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/projects/outputs/nicotine-without-smoke-tobacco-harm-reduction-0

Hand out the key recommendations from the above report to family and friends or a positive news report about it.

I am not a smoker. I do not vape. Cigarettes are killing 480,000 people in the US every year. That's the equivalent of two to three Boeing 747's going down every day. Vaping has the potential to reduce that by 95%.

People who vape are still a small segment of society. Non-vapors/smokers don't understand you. They are confused and think it's the same as smoking. At the same time most of them have loved ones that they care about who smokes. They know the dangers that smoking is doing to them. They are afraid and worried about their loved ones. Educating them on the RCP report and this technology that can add years to their loved ones lives is another tactic to change public opinion.

Finally, does anyone know if there are any pro vaping health care organization?
 
I agree we need a plan. Are there any lawyers out there in the VU? I've been writing my state's governor senator and representatives they all say they are on our side but I'm not sure. There has to be a loop hole or something and I to want to know why 2007? Why go back to the dark ages? But that's not the point. And why are they making it that the only ejuice available to buy pre made isn't even made here? This may seem childish but what about a petition? Anyone have any other ideas?

They are specifically choosing a date before the advent of e-cigs.
 

MyMagicMist

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
ECF Refugee
35,740 @ https://wh.gov/iodIQ & 05/06/2016 01:23 AM Message to the following recipients: President Barack Obama (D), Sen. Joe Manchin (D-WV), Sen. Shelley Capito (R-WV), Rep. Alex Mooney (R-WV) via CASAA.

Let's all make the same noises. We might scare them with our collective grunting, ranting, lunacy, sticking out of tongues, baring of bottoms. :)
 

f1r3b1rd

Phantom Pilot
Staff member
Senior Moderator
VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
VU Challenge Team
Member For 5 Years
VU Patreon
 

Zamazam

Evil Vulcan's do it with Logic
VU Donator
Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years

jj2

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Vape Advocacy
Thank God you got ready for this.

As for the rest. Well I came into the vaping world in 2009. Back then we lived with the threat of shipments being ceased before or after they enter the States. We might have to go back to those times or something close to it.
No matter the vaping world still grew. Don't forget that. Don't give up. Giving up is how they really win!!!

Joe thanks for the home. New and old need it.
 

VU Sponsors

Top