HCIGAR VT133/VT167 Dual 18650 DNA200/250

[Wingsfan0310]

I'm not sure if I'm being clear so I'm going to give this another try. I included a battery discharge CSV file in my ecig files. When you look at the different CSV files from quality 18650 batteries, there not terrible different. When switching from 18650's to Lipos (in a mod like the DUO) you will notice a bigger difference in the Discharge curves (different battery chemistry).

To add, I just received my Samsung 30Q's yesterday. I loaded up two of them in one of my VT133's today. I didn't switch the CSV file. I'm still using the LG HG2 discharge curve. I don't really think it's going to make much if any difference. If I decide to go with the 30Q's full time, I will probably upload that CSV file (I already have it). If I'm switching back and forth, I'm not going to bother.

 

["11"]

First, I took too long to write my post so only saw Firebird's explanation afterward, and Steve's further explanations as well. (Firebird, your saying it uses the curve to judge gas in the tank is my experience since adjusting watt hours hasn't made a noticeable diff even though you'd think it would, while playing with the curve has.)

I will say the only reason I even learned there were battery profiles is b/c my battery meter was not anywhere near accurate from the start and could not figure out why it was reading empty, when I'd put my batts in the charger and they were like 3.7v left. So went Googling the problem and discovered there are battery profiles... then went hunting down profiles for the batts I have...

But if the meter was even fairly accurate without loading a batt profile, I never would have even known they existed.

 

[Wingsfan0310]

Not more than I asked for, thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. Just like to understand features and why they're the way they are...

I know the batt bar is sort of... not all that important in the scheme of things, but I am a little OC when it comes to my electronic devices and like it to be accurate. When I take batts out and pop them in the charger, I have an idea what the remaining voltage s/b depending on what the [mod] bar read.

I have not found a LG HD2C cvs and so was using the generic VTC csv since the HD2Cs are VTC4-compatible. But the batt meter has never been accurate regardless of adjusting watt hours. So started messing with the curve two days ago and finally got it reading much closer, but still have more tweaking to do there,

Meanwhile yesterday I loaded a 25r csv and last night when I pulled those 25r's out I expected them to have a charge of about 3.4v due to the bar reading. Instead they were at 3.59.

That's been the rule with the VT133 in my experience so far...the bar always reads the batts to be lower or more depleted than they actually are. But the only tweak that actually changed the meter was tweaking the curve for some reason. I haven't seen that the watt hours affected the bar, even though what you said makes perfect sense and I'm sure it does work that way. Maybe the curve was just so far off for the HD2Cs that adjusting watt hours couldn't help. Maybe the curve needs to be somewhat accurate, then adjusting watt hours is like fine tuning.. ?? Just guessing... but I adjusted the curve again and will keep testing. These HD2Cs are also "underrated" according to Liion, so probably a combo of things. That is, probably the VTC curve needed adjusting AND watt hours have to be adjusted.

As for the 25r profile also being inaccurate for the bar meter, maybe that particular csv file is also a tad off on the curve.

Well a couple things to ponder. The mod will shut off (Weak Battery) when it sees the at use (under load) voltage is reached (soft cell cutoff). After the cells sit for a few minutes the voltage will bounce back because it's no longer under load.

Depending on what we set the soft cell cutoff at and what the CSV file was made for (maybe it's had a different soft cell cutoff). The bar can be off a little. What I'm saying is these CSV files are done by users. If I set my cutoff voltage at 3.3v then 0% is going to be at 3.3v (under load). Now lets say you download my file and set your softcell cutoff at 3.0v. That curve will be off.

The CSV file in my opinion is just fine tuning, it's really not that big of deal. Same with the battery bar - I look at it as an approximation, not dead nuts 100% accurate.

Here's an example of a 25R CSV file I have. This one probably had the Softcell cutoff set to 3.02V as you can see. You can click on yours to see what I mean. You will drive yourself crazy if you sweat the small stuff!

 

["11"]

[...] Edit: How do we know which CSV is for my Samsung 25R or LG HG2 batteries? Thanks

Not to jump in since you weren't asking me, but as a point of clarification, there is the main ecigprofile.csv, then there are battery profile csv's (e.g. "Samsung 25R.csv") that only have battery data. In the Mod tab, if you look below the battery graph, there is a button that says "Load CSV" which (in my understanding) is for loading a battery profile csv... So while you are in your regular ecigprofile.csv, if on the Mod tab, you click to Load CSV, you can install any battery profile you want without changing anything else about the ecigprofile... then upload to device.

That's how you would change battery profiles within any ecigprofile, if you had reason to. Though I see most people don't and I seem to be the exception.

 

[Elites]

Not to jump in since you weren't asking me, but as a point of clarification, there is the main ecigprofile.csv, then there are battery profile csv's (e.g. "Samsung 25R.csv") that only have battery data. In the Mod tab, if you look below the battery graph, there is a button that says "Load CSV" which (in my understanding) is for loading a battery profile csv... So while you are in your regular ecigprofile.csv, if on the Mod tab, you click to Load CSV, you can install any battery profile you want without changing anything else about the ecigprofile... then upload to device.

That's how you would change battery profiles within any ecigprofile, if you had reason to. Though I see most people don't and I seem to be the exception.

Got it Thanks everyone appreciated

 

[Wingsfan0310]

OK- This is my final thoughts on the subject:

If you really want your battery bar to be as accurate as possible, you need to run the battery analyzer. Set your soft cell at what you prefer, get the proper resistors to run the test.

Like I said though, as you go through charge/discharge cycles that will change. As the battery ages it's capacity will drop. Depending on how hard you are pushing it, it's capacity will be different. It's like trying to hit a moving target, That's why I said don't sweat the small stuff.

 

["11"]

I hear you Steve, but I am guessing your battery meter is reading much more accurately than mine is.

I will continue to play with the curves since not using a csv gives me no accuracy at all... that is, 45min into using my batts (before I started loading a batt profile) the meter would say empty, and batts would still have like 3.7v. I don't need it to be dead on nuts, but I need it to be fairly accurate, as I don't like looking at an empty meter when my batts have plenty of charge. Somethin's funky in Denmark.

 

[Elites]

Well a couple things to ponder. The mod will shut off (Weak Battery) when it sees the at use (under load) voltage is reached. After the cells sit for a few minutes the voltage will bounce back because it's no longer under load.

Depending on what we set the soft cell cutoff at and what the CSV file was made for (maybe it's had a different soft cell cutoff). The bar can be off a little. What I'm saying is these CSV files are done by users. If I set my cutoff voltage at 3.3v then 0% is going to be at 3.3v (under load). Now lets say you download my file and set your softcell cutoff at 3.0v. That curve will be off.

The CSV file in my opinion is just fine tuning, it's really not that big of deal. Same with the battery bar - I look at it as an approximation, not dead nuts 100% accurate.

Here's an example of a 25R CSV file I have. This one probably had the Softcell cutoff set to 3.02V as you can see. You can click on yours to see what I mean. You will drive yourself crazy if you sweat the small stuff!

View attachment 59529

Thanks Steve It's Crystal clear to me now what you were keeping telling Thanks again

 

["11"]

PS and no I am not so anal that I need to use the Battery tester. By tweaking this curve I have it ballpark... and when I get it a little closer than that, I'll be good. But I can just manually do it. As the batteries wear I realize it will be off, but I am not concerned with a little inaccuracy. Just want it functional.

 

[MarkS]

I hear you Steve, but I am guessing your battery meter is reading much more accurately than mine is.

I will continue to play with the curves since not using a csv gives me no accuracy at all... that is, 45min into using my batts (before I started loading a batt profile) the meter would say empty, and batts would still have like 3.7v. I don't need it to be dead on nuts, but I need it to be fairly accurate, as I don't like looking at an empty meter when my batts have plenty of charge. Somethin's funky in Denmark.

I use 3.7V as my cut off. I've heard you will get better cell longevity by doing that. I don't know if that's true but I have cells that still perform decently and they are 1.5 years old. Granted, I don't use them every day as I rotate what Mod I'm using.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

["11"]

I use 3.7V as my cut off. I've heard you will get better cell longevity by doing that. I don't know if that's true but I have cells that still perform decently and they are 1.5 years old. Granted, I don't use them every day as I rotate what Mod I'm using.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

When I started vaping 4yrs ago or so, that was the word I heard as well, and what I always did. That it was better for the batteries if you only took them down to 3.6v or so b/f recharging. However in a recent discussion here, that's not necessarily what most people do or believe anymore. In the long run it probably doesn't make a significant difference either way, and it is more trouble to be constantly charging. So I have personally switched to a 3.0 cut off (but end up recharging before then... but not at 3.6 anymore). YMMV.

 

[BillW50]

When I started vaping 4yrs ago or so, that was the word I heard as well, and what I always did. That it was better for the batteries if you only took them down to 3.6v or so b/f recharging. However in a recent discussion here, that's not necessarily what most people do or believe anymore. In the long run it probably doesn't make a significant difference either way, and it is more trouble to be constantly charging. So I have personally switched to a 3.0 cut off (but end up recharging before then... but not at 3.6 anymore). YMMV.

What I think is also happening is advances in battery technology is always getting better. And some of the old rules doesn't apply anymore. Like it used to be only 200 to 300 recharges. Now some are getting 2000 recharges.

 

[Jim_MDP]

Now some are getting 2000 recharges.

Never heard that before.


eta: To be clear...

Without a "memory effect" or other misc. NiCad silliness... topping off a 2/3 charged cell counts as 1/3 of a "charge cycle".

That's toward a ballpark 300-500 cycle useable lifespan. Just as it's always been.

 

["11"]

What I think is also happening is advances in battery technology is always getting better. And some of the old rules doesn't apply anymore. Like it used to be only 200 to 300 recharges. Now some are getting 2000 recharges.

2k recharges?! Wow... how big IS that battery?!

 

[BillW50]

Never heard that before.


eta: To be clear...

Without a "memory effect" or other misc. NiCad silliness... topping off a 2/3 charged cell counts as 1/3 of a "charge cycle".

That's toward a ballpark 300-500 cycle useable lifespan. Just as it's always been.

The electric automobile is funding most of this development. As if the lithium cells needs to be replaced in 6 months, it just isn't going to convince buyers to buy any. And manufactures have found recipes that prolong the life of the cells by slowing down the parasitic action. This is one of the best videos I have found on the subject.

 

["11"]

The electric automobile is funding most of this development. As if the lithium cells needs to be replaced in 6 months, it just isn't going to convince buyers to buy any. And manufactures have found recipes that prolong the life of the cells by slowing down the parasitic action. This is one of the best videos I have found on the subject.

Cool! Didn't watch the vid as TL but would be nice to have some new technology revolutionize lithium batteries... long as the new batts (down the line whenever a revolution happens) don't cost more than the mod.

 

["11"]

eta: To be clear...

Without a "memory effect" or other misc. NiCad silliness... topping off a 2/3 charged cell counts as 1/3 of a "charge cycle".

That's toward a ballpark 300-500 cycle useable lifespan. Just as it's always been.

IOW, if you added up all the hours an 18650 could be used over its lifetime before it was tossed (recycled), it's going to be roughly the same regardless of charging strategy... only diff will be one person might recharge it 900-1500 times over its lifetime [w/ a ~3.7 cutoff], and another, 300-500 times [with a ~2.7 cut off]. Is that roughly what you're saying?

 

[BillW50]

IOW, if you added up all the hours an 18650 could be used over its lifetime before it was tossed (recycled), it's going to be roughly the same regardless of charging strategy... only diff will be one person might recharge it 900-1500 times over its lifetime, and another, 300-500 times. Is that roughly what you're saying?

Yes.

 

[Jim_MDP]

Yes.

Didn't even see my lips move, did y'all?

And I think Bill was right to answer, but...

IOW, if you added up all the hours an 18650 could be used over its lifetime before it was tossed (recycled), it's going to be roughly the same regardless of charging strategy... only diff will be one person might recharge it 900-1500 times over its lifetime [w/ a ~3.7 cutoff], and another, 300-500 times [with a ~2.7 cut off]. Is that roughly what you're saying?

I'm not sure if I'm reading your intent right as you're bringing a time element into it.

Put differently...
If the Li-Ion cell has a 300-500 "charge cycle" lifespan... that's number of times it has received what would equal a full charge. It doesn't matter how many charge/discharge segments you break each "cycle" into (within reason I suppose... there'll be heat build up with higher charge rates and even a little just at a low/normal rate. but that's the idea).

 

[Jim_MDP]

This is one of the best videos I have found on the subject.

Have to have a look at that later. Thanks.

 

[BillW50]

Didn't even see my lips move, did y'all?

And I think Bill was right to answer, but...

I'm not sure if I'm reading your intent right as you're bringing a time element into it.

Put differently...
If the Li-Ion cell has a 300-500 "charge cycle" lifespan... that's number of times it has received what would equal a full charge. It doesn't matter how many charge/discharge segments you break each "cycle" into (within reason I suppose... there'll be heat build up with higher charge rates and even a little just at a low/normal rate. but that's the idea).

Yes, it is true that half charges doubles the total recharges and quarter charges quadruple. But that 2000 cycles are full charges. Oh by the way, charging only up to 4.10v instead of 4.20v is also supposed to double your total recharges too at a cost of about 12% capacity.

 

[KDodds]

Penny wise? At 12.99/pr for HG2s is it really worth it to even worry about each $6.50 lasting a year and a half versus three years? Of all the things we spend money on, batteries are probably the least of our expenses (for most of us). So, if I (if it's not a myth, which I'm not convinced) have four batteries, I can save $26 every three years? That's $8.66/year savings per four batteries. Seriously?

Long story short, prolonging battery life isn't really a high priority, even for the most strapped of us.

 

[Wingsfan0310]

Yes, it is true that half charges doubles the total recharges and quarter charges quadruple. But that 2000 cycles are full charges. Oh by the way, charging only up to 4.10v instead of 4.20v is also supposed to double your total recharges too at a cost of about 12% capacity.

It's sort of like you can pay me now or pay me later. Even if by charging to only 4.1 and only discharging to 3.7 I could get a little more use. Is it really worth it? Hell, 18650's are relatively cheap now. I just received 8 x Samsung 30Q's from GB for $32 and change shipped (I had almost $5 in points so it only cost $28 out of pocket). Is it really worth the hassle to constantly be changing batteries to maybe get a hair more use out of them? It's not to me. I think it's debatable whether you would even get extended use anyway.

Cheers,
Steve

 

[BillW50]

Penny wise? At 12.99/pr for HG2s is it really worth it to even worry about each $6.50 lasting a year and a half versus three years? Of all the things we spend money on, batteries are probably the least of our expenses (for most of us). So, if I (if it's not a myth, which I'm not convinced) have four batteries, I can save $26 every three years? That's $8.66/year savings per four batteries. Seriously?

Long story short, prolonging battery life isn't really a high priority, even for the most strapped of us.

Yup, so true. But it is still very interesting nonetheless.

 

[Jim_MDP]

Yes, it is true that half charges doubles the total recharges and quarter charges quadruple. But that 2000 cycles are full charges. Oh by the way, charging only up to 4.10v instead of 4.20v is also supposed to double your total recharges too at a cost of about 12% capacity.

I agree under charging & discharging is likely to increase a cell's lifespan.
I seriously doubt it could double the cycle totals though.

But that doesn't address the "2000 cycles" claim.
I've honestly never heard anything like that about 18650s.

Is the answer, or a clue, in the vid?
(Sorry, I haven't viewed it yet)

 

[BillW50]

I agree under charging & discharging is likely to increase a cell's lifespan.
I seriously doubt it could double the cycle totals though.

But that doesn't address the "2000 cycles" claim.
I've honestly never heard anything like that about 18650s.

Is the answer, or a clue, in the vid?
(Sorry, I haven't viewed it yet)

Yes I believe it was mentioned in the video. As Professor Jeff Dahn wasn't able to disclose the manufactures due to nondisclosure agreements.

 

["11"]

[...] Long story short, prolonging battery life isn't really a high priority, even for the most strapped of us.

Plus spending less time changing/charging batts is worth a little something too. Much nicer to vape longer, charge less and come out more or less even anyway!

 

[BillW50]

I agree under charging & discharging is likely to increase a cell's lifespan.
I seriously doubt it could double the cycle totals though.

I just heard that I believe from VapingBad on the Evolv forum. Although since the late 90's, Palm didn't charge their lipos to 4.20v, but 4.10v or less. And I was getting 5 years per lipo charging about three times a week. Now doing the same on a laptop that often charges to 4.20v per cell, you would be lucky to get half that. So it doesn't sound unbelievable to me. And in EScribe, that max recharges does that, charges to 4.10v per cell. While max puffs charges to 4.20v per cell.

 

[KDodds]

Plus spending less time changing/charging batts is worth a little something too. Much nicer to vape longer, charge less and come out more or less even anyway!

Yeah, I carry three mods and an emergency spare every day to work. 2 KBox Minis with my ADVs, a SiD, and a SVD2.0. I carry the VWs because low plumage and can use them at my desk, and only use one/day. I swap the batteries in the morning and all make it through the day, but the KBoxes are usually down near 3.7 or sometimes lower. So yeah, I just swap them in the morning as part of my routine and have spares on hand for all of them (and my other mods). WAY easier than worrying about recharging every time you drop below 4.0.

 

["11"]

Didn't even see my lips move, did y'all?

That was a good one.

And I think Bill was right to answer, but...

I'm not sure if I'm reading your intent right as you're bringing a time element into it..

I was just trying to illustrate a point for those who hear "you can get twice as many charge cycles if you re-charge at 3.6" as thinking that means the battery will last twice as long for them over the long haul. I know "time" isn't a battery spec but people who are not battery-wise think in terms of time when it comes to batteries. How long will these batteries last before they're no good anymore? And the answer is (as I understand it now), you can't extend the life significantly, if at all, by charging more frequently.

 

[Wingsfan0310]

Yeah, I carry three mods and an emergency spare every day to work. 2 KBox Minis with my ADVs, a SiD, and a SVD2.0. I carry the VWs because low plumage and can use them at my desk, and only use one/day. I swap the batteries in the morning and all make it through the day, but the KBoxes are usually down near 3.7 or sometimes lower. So yeah, I just swap them in the morning as part of my routine and have spares on hand for all of them (and my other mods). WAY easier than worrying about recharging every time you drop below 4.0.

What?? No VT133, that's sacrilege.

I'm just messing around!

 

[BillW50]

I was just trying to illustrate a point for those who hear "you can get twice as many charge cycles if you re-charge at 3.6" as thinking that means the battery will last twice as long for them over the long haul. I know "time" isn't a battery spec but people who are not battery-wise think in terms of time when it comes to batteries. How long will these batteries last before they're no good anymore? And the answer is (as I understand it now), you can't extend the life significantly, if at all, by charging more frequently.

It is actually anything close to 4.20v that causes the highest parasitic effect. Also heat is another lithium killer. Avoid those two for the shortest amount of time and lithiums will last for a very long time.

 

[KDodds]

What?? No VT133, that's sacrilege.

I'm just messing around!

LOL. I actually prefer the smaller form factor. With the two KBox Minis, I have PLENTY of juice and power to more than get me through the day, even if one died. I have a the VT75 Nano that sometimes rides along instead of one of the KBoxes. More than likely, I'll eventually get one as insurance against the vapocalypse.

 

["11"]

BTW I guess there is one scenario (at least) where it behooves you to re-charge sooner, and that's when using a mech. In that case having full power delivers a better vape... unless it has a kick. (I don't own a mech anymore but since they just use straight batt power [without a kick]... makes sense.)

 

["11"]

LOL. I actually prefer the smaller form factor. With the two KBox Minis, I have PLENTY of juice and power to more than get me through the day, even if one died. I have a the VT75 Nano that sometimes rides along instead of one of the KBoxes. More than likely, I'll eventually get one as insurance against the vapocalypse.

In that case I am impressed you are even reading this thread! Or found it!

 

[Wingsfan0310]

It is actually anything close to 4.20v that causes the highest parasitic effect. Also heat is another lithium killer. Avoid those two for the shortest amount of time and lithiums will last for a very long time.

Since I charge in a charger and it charges to 4.2v,...

Honestly, I couldn't care less if charging to 4.1 would net me some extra cycles. The extra 12% capacity is worth it to me. All the extra pulling the batteries is bound to wear something else out. No free rides and my time is worth something.

 

["11"]

Since I charge in a charger and it charges to 4.2v,...

Honestly, I couldn't care less if charging to 4.1 would net me some extra cycles. The extra 12% capacity is worth it to me. All the extra pulling the batteries is bound to wear something else out. No free rides and my time is worth something.

My XTAR VP1 also charges to full but I'm not sweating it either. Not worth the stress/time to run in and out of the charger room to check the charge. But good to know nevertheless. Nice to be informed.

 

[KDodds]

In that case I am impressed you are even reading this thread! Or found it!

Yeah, like I said, it's a likelihood I will eventually get one.

 

["11"]

Yeah, like I said, it's a likelihood I will eventually get one.

I don't think you will be disappointed. It's a very nice mod.

 

[Wingsfan0310]

I don't think you will be disappointed. It's a very nice mod.

I'm inclined to agree with you. Mine left Indy and is making it's way here. The race is on, either tomorrow or Monday. Indy is only 4 hours away and it left 2 hours ago, but I'm betting on Monday. I hope I can find a mod to vape on until then

Cheers,
Steve

 

["11"]

I hope I can find a mod to vape on until then

Pffffffffth! What, did your herd of Killer Deer come in and confiscate all 100 mods??


PS Totally off topic but since there is a lull ...(and I won't belabor this)... does anyone else here watch Ice Road Truckers? It's so cozy every summer to have a warm vape and watch them freeze out there. ... but this season it seems like they're really scripting it more than ever. That whole scene with Lisa turning off her motor then bump-starting it... she just happened to stop on a downhill slope? And the truck's engine problem was magically gone? Plus they're really pushing the ice crossings... seems like eventually they'll have to have a truck fall thru the ice... and have that all planned too. (Hope it's Art!) But still entertaining. OK, I'm done.

 

[BoostAddict]

I just checked tracking. Monday for me Better than China shipping IIRC

 

["11"]

BTW...

Mine left Indy and is making it's way here. The race is on, either tomorrow or Monday. Indy is only 4 hours away and it left 2 hours ago, but I'm betting on Monday.

Braggart, Mine is in OK and that's a long way from CA!

 

[BoostAddict]

Pffffffffth! What, did your herd of Killer Deer come in and confiscate all 100 mods??


PS Totally off topic but since there is a lull ...(and I won't belabor this)... does anyone else here watch Ice Road Truckers? It's so cozy every summer to have a warm vape and watch them freeze out there. ... but this season it seems like they're really scripting it more than ever. That whole scene with Lisa turning off her motor then bump-starting it... she just happened to stop on a downhill slope? And the truck's engine problem was magically gone? Plus they're really pushing the ice crossings... seems like eventually they'll have to have a truck fall thru the ice... and have that all planned too. (Hope it's Art!) But still entertaining. OK, I'm done.

It's just like Gold Rush is now, I still enjoy watching it though

 

["11"]

It's just like Gold Rush is now, I still enjoy watching it though

Never saw Gold Rush but can imagine by the name alone!

 

[Wingsfan0310]

BTW...



Braggart, Mine is in OK and that's a long way from CA!

Thar's where mine started too. It's farther to me then you, isn't it.

Didn't yours leave OK yet?

 

["11"]

Thar's where mine started too. It's farther to me then you, isn't it.

Didn't yours leave OK yet?

It only arrived there yesterday and hasn't been updated yet. So to even though it's probably left OK it doesn't look fun when I check the progress.

 

[Wingsfan0310]

I liked watching Deadliest Catch. I haven't seen it in awhile. Same with Ice Road Truckers. Some winters they could film that here. If the Ice doesn't get them here, the massive pot holes will.

 

["11"]

I liked watching Deadliest Catch. I haven't seen it in awhile. Same with Ice Road Truckers. Some winters they could film that here. If the Ice doesn't get them here, the massive pot holes will.

Or the Killer Deer.

They could have a CA Freeway Truckers. No ice... but road rage, traffic jams, tweakers, brainless people who can't possibly really have a DL's, fires, earthquakes and landslides. And the roads are in terrible condition. That's one reason I love watching Ice Road Truckers... it looks so darn peaceful out there.

 

[BoostAddict]

It only arrived there yesterday and hasn't been updated yet. So to even though it's probably left OK it doesn't look fun when I check the progress.

This