FDA REGULATIONS: DON'T PANIC!

[AmandaD]

You apparently know how to handle straight nic. What advice to you have for someone that handles high nic juice just fine, but would like to freeze nic for the future? Is there a difference between handling frozen or frig'ed nic? I'd really like to learn so I can stock up. I'm doing that now with my juices...ordering 24 nic then a bottle of 3-6 nic to mix with - mass quantities actually.

I buy my nic in 100mg/ml. Technically with nic that high one should wear nitrile gloves and make sure the space isn't enclosed (e.g. have a window open). I actually break up my 100mg into 4 ounce glass bottles in the sink in case of spills. Fill as full as possible (to keep out air) and then freeze. I keep a small bottle in my fridge as my working nic, and when that's empty take one out of the freezer. Just keep all nic away from children and pets. Oh, and if you get any on you just wash it off (which is why gloves can be a good idea). With 24mg/ml nic I would just be sure to keep away from pets/children as usual.

 

[The Cromwell]

imho 1000 mg/ml nic should not be sold to consumers.

 

[AlbyKortoona]

And what mg limit would you set, Lord Cromwell? Consumers should have choices, not restrictions.

 

[Time]

The funny thing is, he told me that he's had a couple of drops spill on him.Lol

LOL. Nuff said.

 

[Wingsfan0310]

And what mg limit would you set, Lord Cromwell? Consumers should have choices, not restrictions.

Most places sell up to 100mg/ml. If the general public all had pure Nic, it would just make the FDA's job easier (you would really be reading horror stories in the news then). Pure Nic can be very nasty stuff for the average person without the proper equipment, safety gear, and most importantly knowledge/training imo.

Cheers,
Steve

 

[Vapetronics]

As in the past our community has been worried about newbies not understanding the importance of knowing and practicing safety while vaping, I fear that this current state of panic driving people to store dangerous amounts of nicotine and worse yet making e juice simply will result in a serious accident and remember it's only gonna take only one for the FDA to validate their course of action. I believe that they are counting on this thus as unfortunate as it is........we will provide them all the justification they need to reinforce their intervention. At least that is how they will present it to the non-vaping community. I am not saying not to store or prepare for hard times ahead but the FDA is also counting that we do just that.

 

[5150sick]

If you bought nic today then in two years when you may or may not need to buy nic depending on the lawsuits, grandfather date change in congress, etc... you will have nic that is already 2 years old.
So it be best to slow your roll until we know what the fuck is going on.
Vendors are eating this FDA scare up and taking you for your hard earned money.
Let's get off the freak out train for a few weeks.
At the very, very very very worse you have until August to make your compulsive & impulsive purchases.

 

[aspire.vape]

CASAA posted this on FB.

http://vaportechnology.org/
We hear they have their lobbyist, litigation team together... I know some of these groups are good at marketing and spreading the word, but, we need a very good legal "Dream Team"

 

[Rossum]

If you bought nic today then in two years when you may or may not need to buy nic depending on the lawsuits, grandfather date change in congress, etc... you will have nic that is already 2 years old.

So what? Two years is nothing for quality nic that's properly stored (tightly sealed glass bottles with minimal head space in the freezer).

Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it if/when the FDA shuts down the usual nic-base suppliers.

 

[AndriaD]

You apparently know how to handle straight nic. What advice to you have for someone that handles high nic juice just fine, but would like to freeze nic for the future? Is there a difference between handling frozen or frig'ed nic? I'd really like to learn so I can stock up. I'm doing that now with my juices...ordering 24 nic then a bottle of 3-6 nic to mix with - mass quantities actually.

Well, it's not "straight nic"... it's 100mg, which is 10% nicotine. I have mine stored in amber (brown) glass bottles, all of which are inside taped-shut cardboard boxes in the freezer; between the cardboard (which mainly serves to identify the contents and isolate it from the food) and the brown glass, there won't be any degradation from light.

100mg won't kill you, unless maybe you drank it! Even getting it on your hands, just rinse it with cold water -- PG and VG are both water soluble. Cold water is best because of how easily nicotine absorbs thru the skin, and of course warm water opens the pores, which would increase absorption.

The only difference in handling is that freezer storage makes it thicker; if it's VG, it's going to be more like a gel at that temp, than a liquid, so it would need to be warmed a bit before it could be easily used. PG, not so much; it gets a little thicker at sub-freezing temps, but not nearly as bad as VG. There's been talk of using argon gas to remove any oxygen, but how many of us have access to argon gas? I just fill the bottles all the way to the bottom of the neck, and cap tightly, then place in the box, tape it shut, and stash it away. (I always label each bottle too, with date, 100mg/ml nicotine, 100% PG, so I know EXACTLY what it is, even years down the road.)

Andria

 

[Wingsfan0310]

So what? Two years is nothing for quality nic that's properly stored (tightly sealed glass bottles with minimal head space in the freezer). Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it if/when the FDA shuts down the usual nic-base suppliers.

I think he was referring to people that have never tried DIY and are panic buying because they might not be able to get their store bought juice in 2 years. This doesn't apply to us @Rossum. I have a 3+ year old bottle of Nic (control sample) that I just recently tested and it's still as good as the day I stored it. As a matter of fact I just placed an order for some Nic earlier today that I've been putting off. I'm running low (I did however order a liter instead of 500ml). I don't consider that panic buying by any stretch of the imagination.

Cheers,
Steve

 

[AlbyKortoona]

Most places sell up to 100mg/ml. If the general public all had pure Nic, it would just make the FDA's job easier (you would really be reading horror stories in the news then). Pure Nic can be very nasty stuff for the average person without the proper equipment, safety gear, and most importantly knowledge/training imo.

Cheers,
Steve

Same thing can be said for chain saws, or any number of products that are available to the general public, of which pure nicotine is one. At some point people have to be responsible for their own safety, and a Nanny State will snowball out of control given a toe hold.

 

[Time]

Just for the record, liquid Nicotine has been on the market a very long time. It should easily make the grandfather date if the fda tries to regulate it. But, I don't think they will.

Pure nicotine is legal. It's not controlled. And, the companies that make USP grade are all large companies with Big Pharma backing, they won't have any trouble as their product is already FDA approved.

DIY should be safe from FDA. They care about the manufacturers/sellers.

 

[Time]

Same thing can be said for chain saws, or any number of products that are available to the general public, of which pure nicotine is one. At some point people have to be responsible for their own safety, and a Nanny State will snowball out of control given a toe hold.

Exactly.

 

[Wingsfan0310]

So what? Two years is nothing for quality nic that's properly stored (tightly sealed glass bottles with minimal head space in the freezer).

Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it if/when the FDA shuts down the usual nic-base suppliers.

I forgot to mention it in my last post.
1. I agree with you!
2. In case I never properly thanked you, I want to do it now for all the time and effort (along with expense) you put into the blind Nic testing. It was very helpful and informative.

Cheers,
Steve

 

[Rossum]

I think he was referring to people that have never tried DIY and are panic buying because they might not be able to get their store bought juice in 2 years. This doesn't apply to us.

I ordered my first liter of 100 mg base on December 31, 2013 -- two weeks after I quit smoking without actually intending to. At that point, I had no clue how to DIY, but a serious determination that I would never let goobermint take this miracle away from me.

Anyone can learn to DIY. If you can mix a drink, you can make perfectly vapable juice.

 

[f1r3b1rd]

I ordered my first liter of 100 mg base on December 31, 2013 -- two weeks after I quit smoking without actually intending to. At that point, I had no clue how to DIY, but a serious determination that I would never let goobermint take this miracle away from me.

Anyone can learn to DIY. If you can mix a drink, you can make perfectly vapable juice.

totally agree!
I started in 2014, with the same attitude. I never really looked much at recipes, just how to make the base and flavoring ratios. from there It was just thinking of it like cooking.

 

[Wingsfan0310]

totally agree!
I started in 2014, with the same attitude. I never really looked much at recipes, just how to make the base and flavoring ratios. from there It was just thinking of it like cooking.

I remember that, I think I posted in most of the threads you had back then (at the other place) when you were first getting into DIY. Hard to forget the wild hair guy avatar (Giorgio A. Tsoukalos - It's the Aliens ).

PS I swear his hair was it's own life-form

Cheers,
Steve

 

[Zakukillerz]

​

The FDA has made their regulations and the news is grim. Those in power have proven that despite the rapidly growing mass of proof that vaping is a very positive thing, they will stubbornly keep their heads in their nether regions, and their hands in the pockets of those with vested interests that oppose vaping.

As bad as it looks, this is not the time to panic or give up. We still have plenty of time to fight, and with every passing day more research emerges to support us, and our voice grows louder. This is the time to support the industry, and spread the message to convert more smokers. The bigger we are, the harder we are to ignore.

Two years to the day we posted this as a trailer before VU opened...

But no matter what the future brings, there will always be a safe place for vapers to communicate, and share information and ideas. The Vaping Underground Forum was created in no small part to secure the future of vaping, one way or another. The VaporJoes Network has been working hard to ensure that our infrastructures and services are safely out of the reach of USA or FDA regulations. We're here to stay, so that your best source for vaping information will continue to be a thriving hub for anyone who has made their choice to embrace this path to tobacco harm reduction.

So get to the Underground, and bring your still-smoking friends with you. We've got plenty of room for everyone, and we're not going anywhere.

Does anyone know the regs on doing nicotine yourself. Buying juice and adding your own nicotine, I was doing that many years ago already when there wasn't as many juices out and you would add your own nicotine liquid with a syringe.

 

[Time]

imho 1000 mg/ml nic should not be sold to consumers.

And you know what's best for people, don't ya, whether they know it or not.

 

[Ms. Trixy]

Petition Your Legislator NOW to Support HR 2058! CASAA has a prewritten message, but it can be edited to say whatever you like.

It only takes a minute and will send emails to both your senators (based on your zip code) and the President!!

Petition Your Legislator NOW to Support HR 2058!

I went to the support site. I noticed it wanted my address. Ummm...don't think I want any anti-vape group or person knowing where they can find me as a "Vaper". Your thoughts, Ms. Ocelot?

 

[f1r3b1rd]

not many

Does anyone know the regs on doing nicotine yourself. Buying juice and adding your own nicotine, I was doing that many years ago already when there wasn't as many juices out and you would add your own nicotine liquid with a syringe.

a lot of us are still going through the regs, if you look around, there are some contradictory interpretations of the bill. Reading this shitastic waste of paper, is a lot more difficult than I had thought it would be; with so many definitions of terms and contradictions.

in all honesty, the best thing, that we can do, is sit tight for another week or two, let the dust settle and see what all the lawyers say.
the regs don't go into effect for 90 days, so we have more than enough time, to let the dust settle and revaluate everything.


as per the juice shots, I know what youre talking about, that is how Australia get around their laws.

 

[Time]

So, I'm wondering about a couple of things. Since the FDA gets it's authority from Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, I have looked at it a little. I haven't read the full text but just the wikki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Smoking_Prevention_and_Tobacco_Control_Act

The provisions

• Creates the Center for Tobacco Products, a tobacco control center within the FDA and gives the FDA authority to regulate the content, marketing and sale of tobacco products.
• Requires tobacco companies and importers to reveal all product ingredients and seek FDA approval for any new tobacco products.
• Allows the FDA to change tobacco product content.
  • The ban on flavoring applies to any product meeting the definition of a "cigarette" according to section 3(1) of the Federal Cigarette Labeling and Advertising Act. This includes any tobacco that comes rolled in paper or a non-tobacco substance, and added to this definition in the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act is any tobacco with the purpose to be rolled such as rolling tobacco.
• Calls for new rules to prevent sales except through direct, face-to-face exchanges between a retailer and a consumer.
• Limits advertising that could attract young smokers.
• Requires cigarette warning labels to cover 50 percent of the front and rear of each pack, with the word warning in capital letters.
• Requires FDA approval for the use of expressions such as "light, "mild" or "low" that give the impression that a particular tobacco product poses less of a health risk.[13]

The bill makes no provisions that ban the import of the banned items for personal consumption, only for "sale or distribution". (Division A Title II Section 201) [14]

I bolded and underlined two of the provisions that immediately caught my attention.

Are US based internet sales going to be banned? That sure does look like it to me. That would be a huge concern.

And that last little bit makes me think that China sales will be fine.

Any thoughts?

 

[pulsevape]

China sales will be fine....well that would be consistent with the trade policies of America..do what's best for the industrialist who are in China, at the expense of American bussiness...it's like phillip morris and the chinese sat down and wrote out a christmas list and gave it to the FDA.

 

[Ms. Trixy]

I just read the 5 page statement of Regulations from SFATA: http://sfata.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/SFATADeemingReuglationsAnalysis.pdf
Needless to say it was very specific but left itself open for future measures of restrictions.

I also found another article extremely interesting from Nude Armor. A New technology on how to disburse nicotine through something similar to a sealed injection bottle used by hospitals/doctors by use of a syringe that automatically seals the bottle upon removal of the syringe.
https://www.nudenicotine.com/product/nude-armor-v2-nicotine-base-extended-shelf-life/#reviews

Any thoughts other than hiring someone from a lab or studying incessantly and literally wearing a hazmat suit?

 

[The Ocelot]

I went to the support site. I noticed it wanted my address. Ummm...don't think I want any anti-vape group or person knowing where they can find me as a "Vaper". Your thoughts, Ms. Ocelot?

The link is to CASAA! You don't want to be known as a vaper??? My thoughts are that it appears you're fine bitching anonymously on a forum, but are scared of an "anti-vape group or person" knowing you support tobacco harm reduction.

 

[The Ocelot]

Hello, madame Ocelot... Fancy seeing you here. How's thangs?

Andria

Thangs are making me even less proud of being an American and I didn't think that was possible.

 

[Ms. Trixy]

+time - I just ordered a bunch of liquid from Yaeliq's in Israel. Moving juice discussion over there ------->

 

[Ms. Trixy]

Jeesh, Ocelot. Cool your jets. With everything going on in this political climate, refugees, Obama, Muslims....I admit I'm a tad paranoid about giving out my personal information. I definitely will support vaping in any way possible. If it means providing my information to CASAA I will do it. I was just a little hesitant at first. I want to make a stand. I want billions of us to make a stand. Off to CASAA....

 

[f1r3b1rd]

The link is to CASAA! You don't want to be known as a vaper??? My thoughts are that it appears you're fine bitching anonymously on a forum, but are scared of an "anti-vape group or person" knowing you support tobacco harm reduction.

that's a productive and inspiring response.

 

[Ms. Trixy]

Does anyone know the regs on doing nicotine yourself. Buying juice and adding your own nicotine, I was doing that many years ago already when there wasn't as many juices out and you would add your own nicotine liquid with a syringe.

There's new technology out now using a syringe in pre-manufactured, tempered bottles. This should be right up your alley.
https://www.nudenicotine.com/product/nude-armor-v2-nicotine-base-extended-shelf-life/#reviews

 

[Time]

There's new technology out now using a syringe in pre-manufactured, tempered bottles. This should be right up your alley.
https://www.nudenicotine.com/product/nude-armor-v2-nicotine-base-extended-shelf-life/#reviews

It's not really that new.

Here is something to think about. As a farm boy, I give lots of shots to the animals. When you pull a liquid from a bottle, seal or no seal, air must go back in the bottle to fill the space that the liquid once filled. I've pulled allot of medicine from bottles with this type of seal. Air goes in the bottle. If it did not, a vacuum is created and you can't draw liquid out.

It would keep air out only if you first drew argon or another inert gas into the syringe so only the argon went into the bottle. But, something has to fill the space vacated by the liquid.

 

[The Ocelot]

 

[The Ocelot]

Dr. Michael Siegel's latest blog:

FDA Regulations Present an Imminent Threat to the Safety of the Public: Urgent Changes are Needed

 

[Whiskey]

If you bought nic today then in two years when you may or may not need to buy nic depending on the lawsuits, grandfather date change in congress, etc... you will have nic that is already 2 years old.
So it be best to slow your roll until we know what the fuck is going on.
Vendors are eating this FDA scare up and taking you for your hard earned money.
Let's get off the freak out train for a few weeks.
At the very, very very very worse you have until August to make your compulsive & impulsive purchases.

Indeed

 

[The Cromwell]

And what mg limit would you set, Lord Cromwell? Consumers should have choices, not restrictions.

Should consumers be able to buy high explosives?
Any prescription drug they want to buy?


Ihmo 100 mg/ml nic is more than sufficient for consumer DIY.

 

[The Cromwell]

Nic in a deep freezer in PG should last at least 10 years.

 

[Whiskey]

Dr. Michael Siegel's latest blog:

FDA Regulations Present an Imminent Threat to the Safety of the Public: Urgent Changes are Needed

Thanks for RE-posting these, as they both were posted (a few times) in our "Fine-bitched forum already" (sarcasm) Look around and read and you would have seen them.

 

[AlbyKortoona]

Should consumers be able to buy high explosives?
Any prescription drug they want to buy?


Ihmo 100 mg/ml nic is more than sufficient for consumer DIY.

Was certain you would make that argument. Probably no, and yes for answers. There are some countries that don't have the U.S. style combo of Drs. & insurance companies deciding what drugs they they can have, and it is a non issue. You and some others seem to advocate a 100mg limit. What if a bigger Nanny than you decided that 6mg was the limit. How would you feel about that. Trying to protect everyone from everything is a slippery slope, and only people who wish to be King are so presumptuous as to assume they know better, and the mindless sheeple who fall into lockstep behind them. That fucker bloomberg comes to mind...

 

[Eastender]

although I am completely against any form of governmental control in any facet of society, despite that , the vaping industry seriously needs some form of oversight. All these years up to now every vendor produces and offers their products without any real regulations. Forget CAASA (which is a total joke) prices in hardware have dropped while ejuice has gone up. replacement coils soak up more and more juice, questionable ingriedients in the juice, etc.....every industry needs oversight to protect the consumer. the ones who are really panicky are the vendors and online social media hogs who are raking the dollars so naturally they worry. In truth, stop reading all the BS online from those who have special interests and realise that, no matter what happens, in one form or another vaping will continue since it has its own momentum.

 

[pulsevape]

although I am completely against any form of governmental control in any facet of society, despite that , the vaping industry seriously needs some form of oversight. All these years up to now every vendor produces and offers their products without any real regulations. Forget CAASA (which is a total joke) prices in hardware have dropped while ejuice has gone up. replacement coils soak up more and more juice, questionable ingriedients in the juice, etc.....every industry needs oversight to protect the consumer. the ones who are really panicky are the vendors and online social media hogs who are raking the dollars so naturally they worry. In truth, stop reading all the BS online from those who have special interests and realise that, no matter what happens, in one form or another vaping will continue since it has its own momentum.

this industry has been around for a decade and has policed itself BETTER than the FDA policies food..look at how many recalls ther are on chicken, beef,eggs,lettuce...every single fucking year...about 1% of all foodstuffs imported into the US are actually tested by the FDA....this is an out and out theft of an entire industry to be handed over to the uber rich and stolen from the individuals who built the industry..anyone that believes that the goverment of the US is in anyway shape or form interested in the health and well being of the citizens is out to lunch.

 

[AlbyKortoona]

I make my own juice so don't really care, but was thinking that juice prices had come down? Perhaps some oversight is needed, unfortunately all too often that comes with heavy handed regulation and increased unnecessary bureaucratic costs, which are ultimately paid by the end user. Totally agree about the BS coming from vendors and online shills (reviewers), they recognize a marketing opportunity when they see one. The sky is not falling...

 

[pulsevape]

I make my own juice so don't really care, but was thinking that juice prices had come down? Perhaps some oversight is needed, unfortunately all too often that comes with heavy handed regulation and increased unecessary bureaucratic costs, which are ultimately paid by the end user. Totally agree about the BS coming from vendors and online shills (reviewers), they recognize a marketing opportunity when they see one. The sky is not falling...

Oh really...vaping is illegal in Austalia, and in new zeland, it is heavily regulated in europe.it is outlawed in the philipines...the people in all these countries vape nicotine through the black market.....did anybody ever learn the expression..."it can't happen here "...in their history class. it can happen here and it is happening this isn't bout right or wrong legal and illegal safe or dangerous this is about the tobacco industry and big pharma profits, and they have alot more pull in washington than you do....for decade after decade the FDA regulated Tobacco and the cigarette companies lied through their teeth about what was in cigarettes and they got away with it....and the reason they got away with it was because the FDA was CORRUPT and was bought off, and now you think the FDA is going to all of a sudden get honest.LOL.

 

[jasonB]

"E-liquids that do not contain tobacco or nicotine or are not derived from tobacco or nicotine do not meet the definition
of "covered tobacco product," as described throughout this final rule, and will not be required to carry an addiction warning or to submit a self-certification."

I think zero nic free samples are still ok..

Are you sure? I was just on the FDA website as i manufacture eliquid. and in the forms and statements that i found on this new regulation it states if nicotine is present then u must have this warning label "WARNING: This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical" then below that is states that if product does not cantain nicotine and the manufacturer has data to support this then an alternate statement must be used on product packages and advertisements; stating "This product is made from Tobacco". Since they were able to deem eliquid under tobacco i guess even if it doesnt have tobacco in it they can still claim it as such so 0 nic or 3 nic really doesnt matter. You will still have to file the same paperwork and prove 0 nic or 3 nic. and still pay the tobacco taxes.

 

[pulsevape]

in 1901 Upton Sinclair wrote the novel "The Jungle" it exposed the horrible conditons of the workers in the meat packing industry and the filth and health violations of the industry.at the time meat packing was one of the lowest paying most dangerous jobs in america, because of that novel meat packing became one of the highest paying and safest jobs in blue collar America......fast forward to Bill Clinton..Tyson Chicken donates millions to the Clinton campagin and guess what...Tyson Chicken starts sending busses down into Mexico to recruit mexicans and busses them into the US illegally to work in their plants...the conditions of the food goes way down, recalls start happening against Tyson chicken selling shit meat,and the recalls keep happening once again the wages and conditions of meat packing hit rock bottom...Tyson finally gets caught muleing illegal aliens into the country and the whole scheme is exposed...all this happened under the eye of the FDA........there is no possible way it could have happened or could have been hidden so well without the collusion of the goverment.

 

[AlbyKortoona]

and now you think the FDA is going to all of a sudden get honest.LOL.

Why do you think that I think that? I did not say anything remotely like that.

 

[Ohwatafool]

Well this certainly hasn't calmed down any. I suppose people are going to panic even when you label the thread to not to. Regulations are going to happen, but they don't need to be as they are written now. There are lawsuits already filed and I'm certain many more pending. The advocacy groups are coming together to provide a more unified front. The industry doesn't want to lose out, and seem to be heading the in right direction. Individuals in the community are freaking the fuck out and hording stuff. That's cool, hopefully it's creating more revenue for businesses that are actively supporting the cause. Unfortunately this is also a recipe for price gouging for a short term gain and fuck over the consumers. I'm not there yet, I'll continue to buy as I normally would. I'm with 5150sick I want to see where this goes before I wind up with way too much.

 

[AlbyKortoona]

Australia is one of the countries where that confusion is at its height, with laws that are already some of the strictest in the world and that vary more between the different states.

The baseline is that because nicotine is classed as a Schedule 7 poison in Australia, it’s illegal to sell it except as a licensed medication.

That means disposable e-cigarettes or cartridges that contain nicotine are not for sale right across the country, but nicotine free ones and refillable devices can be sold unless state law band them.

It’s also not illegal to import nicotine liquids for personal use, again unless state law says otherwise, so that’s what most Australian vapers do.

Liquid is easy to find from suppliers in New Zealand, or from Chinese manufacturers. Many people also order high-strength nicotine base and mix it with nicotine-free liquids.

Oh really..

 

[pulsevape]

Why do you think that I think that? I did not say anything remotely like that.

perhaps some oversight is needed.........

We have been doing a damn good job overseeing ourselves...if you fuck up in the vape world word gets out fast and your name is mud...look at what happened to 5 pawns....we have people investigating everything from juice to ingredients to wire composition, to wicking materials, and we always have had them and they have no vested intrest in the industry.We leave the "oversight" to the goverment it leaves the oppurtunity open for corruption and we get lazy and trust the goverment and the goverment lies.

 

[pulsevape]

Australia is one of the countries where that confusion is at its height, with laws that are already some of the strictest in the world and that vary more between the different states.

The baseline is that because nicotine is classed as a Schedule 7 poison in Australia, it’s illegal to sell it except as a licensed medication.

That means disposable e-cigarettes or cartridges that contain nicotine are not for sale right across the country, but nicotine free ones and refillable devices can be sold unless state law band them.

It’s also not illegal to import nicotine liquids for personal use, again unless state law says otherwise, so that’s what most Australian vapers do.

Liquid is easy to find from suppliers in New Zealand, or from Chinese manufacturers. Many people also order high-strength nicotine base and mix it with nicotine-free liquids.

Oh really..

Oh really.... I was just viewing an interview of the maker of a Billion lives... taking place in New Zeeland and the interviewer said nicotine e juice was illegal in NZ.